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#1040824 - 10/29/20 11:56 PM Why did slavery exist?
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1535
Loc: Tacoma
My kids were talking to me about slavery and racism the other day, and were asking how anyone could allow or participate in it. I talked to them about my belief that how perception changes and that, while good people were always against it, others that were not necessarily evil were swayed by the common beliefs and practices of the day. It made me start to wonder what my grandchildren will look back at and wonder about us in regards to what we did and allowed as a society. The easy answers may be the treatment of homosexuals or transgendered people, or perhaps a big swing will occur and abortion will be looked at differently. But, after a bit of thought, I came to the conclusion it will probably be health care. My friends from socialist countries have expressed disbelief that our country would let people die if they can not afford the health care needed. Say what you will, but I believe we will have socialized care before long. At some point, people will be come used to it. Then, they will ask our generation, "did you really let poor people die because they had no insurance?" The easy answer that it was too expensive will not work, as they will be used to it working and being affordable. I am generally pretty conservative, but want to be on the right side of this. Any thoughts?


Edited by Krijack (10/29/20 11:57 PM)

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#1040825 - 10/30/20 07:21 AM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: Krijack]
ArvidBarker
Unregistered


Yeah,people suck. It's why I chose not to procreate. We can't live in harmony with our environment or even each other. Hell even on this silly message board ,you can see how fkd we are at agreeing on anything,and it's one user group(tribe) vs another. We are neanderthals,we are as a society largely weak,and dependent upon broken systems,and full of fear. They will just look back on our generation and shake their heads. Bunch of social justice warriors and apathetic pussies,racist corrupt police officers with sh!tty training,corrupt politicians,genocide,war,mass starvation,greed. I mean,I live a good life. But not far from me,it's the shits for a lot of people.

I want to respect humanity ,I do. But looking back through history,and seeing the world we live in,I don't. Color me cynical.

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#1040830 - 10/30/20 08:15 AM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: Krijack]
Streamer Offline
No Stars for You!

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 2367
Loc: T-Town
Avid,

That’s a very nihilistic way of looking at things, but I suppose you aren’t that far off. Couldn’t you also procreate to expand your superior lineage? The world needs more decent people. If they don’t fill the void then the dumb fvcks will fill the void. You could be a part of the solution by raising well balance decent children who make a difference in the world.
_________________________
“Obviously you don't care about democracy if you vote for Trump” - Salmo g.

Space Available! Say something idiotic today!


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#1040842 - 10/30/20 10:25 AM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: Krijack]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13508
The primitive hominid was amoral. Survival of the fittest. You want it, you take it, and keep it if you can. Until you can't. The primitive person has a reptilian brain; eat, rest, fight as needed, reproduce. Rinse and repeat.

The world is a dangerous place. Instead of "me" against the world, "we" band together in families, clans, tribes, and city-states for mutual aid and protection. Then it became "us" against "them." If we can successfully subdue them, we can subjugate (enslave) them for our benefit, expressed in economy and power. We perceive that as good so long as we remain amoral.

Keeping to this thumbnail sketch, morality was the product of evolution among us as individuals and society, eventually including the Golden Rule. Slavery persisted long after morality evolved because it remained an economic convenience and expression of power. The U.S. Civil War is perhaps "the" textbook example of how economic convenience is willing to subjugate culture, morality, and even the essence of humanity in order to extend itself. That is the briefest explanation I can give for the existence of slavery.

Health care is a primary issue of our time. There are many points of view, and more than one are valid. Mine goes something like this: health care is NOT a basic right, i.e., it is not listed anywhere in the Declaration of Independence or the U.S. Constitution. But like other social developments such as public schools, roads, police & fire protection, libraries, social security, medicare, etc., health care is a desirable inclusion.

The major stumbling block is that national health is not a good fit with a profit driven capitalist economy. The primary motive of the health care industry (medical personnel, pharma, insurance, etc.) is profit, not health. Health is a by-product and not the purpose of the health care industry. To wit: pharma doesn't want medicinal cures for ailments; it wants to produce drugs to treat ailments indefinitely because that is infinitely more profitable.

We can't get past the stumbling block because conservative fight tooth and nail to prevent the nation from venturing further down the path toward socialism, while liberals embrace increased social programs. I don't think there is common ground to be had. Conservatives hold that capitalism provides the best health care in the world (but only to those who can afford it) while progressive liberals now claim health care is a basic human right (tho it isn't), and regular liberals and moderates see the situation for what it is: a for profit system that dispenses health care based on wealth. Conservatives must be OK with that, given how hard they will fight to preserve it. And liberals and moderates have decided they want health care to be as common to all people as public schools, social security, and medicare.

My projected outcome: the U.S. will inexorably move toward a national health care, but it will be vastly more expensive than it is for our Canadian and European counterparts and not be as good. Because that seems to be the American way. (Going off memory here, but I think I recall the stats being that US health care costs are roughly double that of other western nations while delivering about 70 or 80% as much health care.)

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#1040846 - 10/30/20 10:55 AM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: Krijack]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7644
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Just look at the recent Spokesman Review's editorial support for Trump. After listing a litany of moral and ethical shortcomings they said to vote for hime because "he is better for the economy". Money, first, last, and always. Hence, slavery. Now, we just call them minimum wage workers or illegal immigrants.

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#1040851 - 10/30/20 11:13 AM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: Carcassman]
Jason Beezuz Offline
My Waders are Moist

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 3419
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Just look at the recent Spokesman Review's editorial support for Trump. After listing a litany of moral and ethical shortcomings they said to vote for hime because "he is better for the economy". Money, first, last, and always. Hence, slavery. Now, we just call them minimum wage workers or illegal immigrants.


Well put. Money Trumps all....
_________________________
Maybe he's born with it.

Maybe it's amphetamines.

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#1040855 - 10/30/20 11:49 AM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: Krijack]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Moody Analytics and Goldman Sachs say Biden will be better for the economy than Trump.

But I'm sure the Spokesman Review guy is totally dialed on the economy.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#1040857 - 10/30/20 11:58 AM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: Dan S.]
Streamer Offline
No Stars for You!

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 2367
Loc: T-Town
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
Moody Analytics and Goldman Sachs say Biden will be better for the economy than Trump.

But I'm sure the Spokesman Review guy is totally dialed on the economy.


I saw this as well. It’s certainly possible for the economy to do well under a non-conservative administration. Obama’s presidency was an example of this.
_________________________
“Obviously you don't care about democracy if you vote for Trump” - Salmo g.

Space Available! Say something idiotic today!


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#1040858 - 10/30/20 12:01 PM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: Krijack]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1535
Loc: Tacoma
I have a work associate (we are all self employed) that bought 1 of the only 2 policies that was available to us in Washington state at the time. She ended up with cancer and the ensuing costs sucked up all the benefits under the policy, took about another million or so, then bankrupted her family. In our system, having the best insurance couldn't help her from financial ruin. The kicker is, she was told that there was no hope, but the care ended up saving her.
So, how do we keep good care but keep people from social ruin and protect the poor. I think the best choice would be to start with some kind of government provided insurance with a deductible based off income and wealth. For the very poor, it might be a $5 co-pay and go up. This provides incentive to not over use it for the very poor and protects the very rich. Private insurance could still exist, as they could provide the basic insurance against the deductable needed for the middle income or higher wage earners. Not much different then it is now, but provides a means for everyone to get insurance and protects people from financial ruin if a catastrophic illness occurs.
An immigrant friend of mine got a real good deal on a car a few years ago. He was a little skeptical so he asked the owner why they were selling it. The seller told him that his wife had cancer and they needed the money fast to continue her treatment and that he was selling off whatever he could. He looked at me, and said " I thought America was supposed to be the greatest nation in the world. Even in my third world country we had a better system."

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#1040876 - 10/30/20 01:46 PM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: Streamer]
ArvidBarker
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Streamer
Avid,

That’s a very nihilistic way of looking at things, but I suppose you aren’t that far off. Couldn’t you also procreate to expand your superior lineage? The world needs more decent people.


I agree,I am a bit nihilistic. No I don't want to pass on my genetics ,and the world doesn't need more decent people,it needs the people that are here to be decent. Having and raising a bunch of snot nosed kids is no guarantee they will turn out decent. I mean,read this message board,and thats just us lol.

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#1040927 - 10/31/20 10:46 AM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: Krijack]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13508
Originally Posted By: Krijack
I have a work associate (we are all self employed) that bought 1 of the only 2 policies that was available to us in Washington state at the time. She ended up with cancer and the ensuing costs sucked up all the benefits under the policy, took about another million or so, then bankrupted her family. In our system, having the best insurance couldn't help her from financial ruin. The kicker is, she was told that there was no hope, but the care ended up saving her.
So, how do we keep good care but keep people from social ruin and protect the poor. I think the best choice would be to start with some kind of government provided insurance with a deductible based off income and wealth. For the very poor, it might be a $5 co-pay and go up. This provides incentive to not over use it for the very poor and protects the very rich. Private insurance could still exist, as they could provide the basic insurance against the deductable needed for the middle income or higher wage earners. Not much different then it is now, but provides a means for everyone to get insurance and protects people from financial ruin if a catastrophic illness occurs.
An immigrant friend of mine got a real good deal on a car a few years ago. He was a little skeptical so he asked the owner why they were selling it. The seller told him that his wife had cancer and they needed the money fast to continue her treatment and that he was selling off whatever he could. He looked at me, and said " I thought America was supposed to be the greatest nation in the world. Even in my third world country we had a better system."


An advanced civilized society would have a national health care system. I'd like to see something along the lines of the Oregon Health Plan proposed back in 1993. It's a basic health plan that covers most things (a list of about 450). It's not a platinum plated plan, so people who could afford to would supplement it with some personal health insurance. Kind of like what I have now, with Medicare plus a supplemental plan that I purchase to cover the rest.

The rich would still have the best health care because they can afford a more expensive plan or simply pay out of pocket. The rest of us would supplement with a "middle class" supplemental plan to cover what Basic Health might not. And the poor, well at least they would have basic health coverage.

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#1040929 - 10/31/20 12:47 PM Re: Why did slavery exist? [Re: ]
Jason Beezuz Offline
My Waders are Moist

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 3419
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: ArvidBarker
[quote=Streamer]Avid,

Having and raising a bunch of snot nosed kids is no guarantee they will turn out decent. I mean,read this message board,and thats just us lol.


Kinda like how some Bible Thumpers look down their nose on scientists and call them indoctrinated and try to remove science from school. They consider themselves decent people, and are decent in casual conversation, but they really aren’t. If they consider science a threat to their beliefs, that is their problem, not everybody’s, but you know, their beliefs Trump all when you boil it down. That not decent IMO.
_________________________
Maybe he's born with it.

Maybe it's amphetamines.

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