#981943 - 11/26/17 04:49 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1519
Loc: Tacoma
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With the tribes increasingly owning there own hatcheries, at what point can they claim ownership of the fish. While some incidental catch should be expected, at what point can they demand an end to target fisheries or reimbursement for the cost of these fish? Just throwing a wish out there to stop some of the taking of our returning fish. For years we allowed open range practices, but still considered the cattle, if branded, to be in private ownership. I see no reason why the oceans should be that different.
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#981944 - 11/26/17 04:57 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7519
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Talk to Alaska and BC about that one. There were efforts in the 70s for "Ocean Ranching" and the free-range harvesters shut it down.
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#981948 - 11/27/17 11:16 AM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7519
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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That's the Business Model alright. Then, the Gubmint will bail them out with disaster relief because the lack of fish must be caused by some "Act of Gawd" in the black box known as the ocean.
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#981949 - 11/27/17 11:34 AM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: Larry B]
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Spawner
Registered: 09/17/04
Posts: 592
Loc: Seattle
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Recent works shows that the Pinnipeds (Yay Larry) are really chowing down on juvenile salmon. When the whales and pinnipeds are added together, they take more than humans. According to da Feds. Now, back to marine mammal predation in Puget Sound. Here is a link to a recent scientific article addressing the impact of four marine mammal predators: https://www.researchgate.net/publication...om_1970_-_2015.Draw your own conclusions as to what needs to be done. I am adding a link to a just published paper that examines chinook mortality tradeoffs between fisheries harvest and marine mammal predation along the west coast of North America.. Chinook recovery may be going as well as it can, it is supporting an ever increasing number of mammal predators of all sorts. This paper didn't account for bycatch mortality in trawl fisheries and didn't look at the Bering Sea. Marine Mammals and Chinook
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#981950 - 11/27/17 11:55 AM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7519
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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The marine mammals and birds don't have a choice as to what they eat. Most humans do. If we are unwilling to eliminate the marine mixed stock harvest, and this probably should include trawl based on what it appears to do the Yukon and other northern rivers, then we will have to kill the predators until their level balances with food supply and fishery removals.
Some sort of action is necessary if we want to avoid extinction of various animal species.
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#981952 - 11/27/17 04:54 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Ornamental Rice Bowl
Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12612
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RG calls it dumpster diving, but I simply call it "data acquisition." To quote a favorite Disney character, "It's what I do... it's what I live for." So here's some historic evidence that the 100K GH 2012 fall chinook number I cited earlier is NOT a science fiction fantasy. 50-100K adult production from current habitat? Seriously? Yah... you betcha! Look at what escapements in the 20-25K range could historically produce. ![](http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/KeenEyeMD/Data%20and%20Charts/image_zpsryk4rm0b.jpg) Except back then, they were virtually ALL caught in the terminal by locals instead of getting low-holed by AK/BC like they are today.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey) "If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman) The Keen Eye MDLong Live the Kings!
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#981954 - 11/27/17 05:31 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7519
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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One of the really big holes in the above analysis is that the escapement for the teens is expected to be the same as the 80s.
There is no justification for that other than it can be used to support the current management.
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#981956 - 11/27/17 05:59 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Ornamental Rice Bowl
Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12612
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Caught that footnote AFTER I posted the pic, CM
So yeah... the 22650 escapement number was "made up" for the 1910's dataset.
But ya gotta remember, they fished long and hard back then... 7 days a week for months at a time. It's certainly possible they were capable of fishing the runs down to escapements of 20-25K or even less.
Escapements of 23K producing runs of 70K is a recruit per spawner ratio that's barely over 3:1.... definitely in the realm of believable.
If true escapement was actually greater than 23K, it probably wasn't by much.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey) "If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman) The Keen Eye MDLong Live the Kings!
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#981957 - 11/27/17 07:10 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7519
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Perhaps. It will be used to justify high harvest rates. Also, the fish back then were older and larger. A female had more eggs. 20K in 1910 was radically different than 20K in 1980. Lots fewer eggs from the smaller fish, eggs buried shallower so more could be scoured on a given freshet.
Just disappoints me that rather made-up numbers will be used to justify current management.
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#981959 - 11/27/17 09:40 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7519
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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When I was managing, the PS data bases we used were escapement plus PS net catch. Canadian, all hook and line, Alaskan were all excluded.
There are actually very few "data bases" that I am aware of that have the complete catch and fishery induced mortality included. Plus, even fewer have an annual analysis of the catch by stock so that broad assumptions are used for stock distribution.
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#981960 - 11/27/17 09:49 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Ornamental Rice Bowl
Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12612
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While on the subject of catch accounting, I have been unable to find any coastal creel reports for GH this year. Typically the creel crew reports on Westport, Johns River, 28th St, Cosmopolis, South Montesano, and Fuller ramps. This year? No report! http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/reports_plants.htmlMebbe one of you knows where else to look, or perhaps there was a staff oversight in posting to the WDFW website? Or mebbe they simply didn't do it? I had occasion to launch at WP, Johns, 28th, S Monte, and Fuller.... ZERO checkers encountered outside of WP.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey) "If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman) The Keen Eye MDLong Live the Kings!
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#981968 - 11/28/17 06:38 AM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7519
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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With apologies to Dr Emmett Brown " Data? We don't need no stinking data".
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#981976 - 11/28/17 02:03 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: Soft bite]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4986
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
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eyeFish, I have also been unsuccessful at finding creel count data this year. In my opinion the reason is that there were no creel counters. At least I never encountered one in my 17 trips to Monte, Cosi, and 28th street. Several others who fish often also noted the absence. WDFW answer will be.....NO MONEY.......but it tells me that whomever does budget for Region 6, this is not a very important item.
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"
"I thought growing older, would take longer"
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#981978 - 11/28/17 02:20 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4986
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
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Soft Bite and others....
QIN netters have a netting schedule right now:
11/26, 27, 28, 29 and then 12/3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.
I went to town yesterday, just to watch the "only net I saw", one on South side of river, by Swanson's.
1 young person was watching net ????? but he was also chatting with person sitting in vehicle.....cork line started bobbing, he continued to chat for a while....then went down to shove boat off.....WELL in that short period of time....sea lion came over, rolled over cork line, grabbed fish, went back over cork line, put on quite a show on "killing the salmon".....barked a few times, as if to say, "thanks for lunch, can I have another"???
Never saw any seals, yesterday, but there were 2 sea lions......
Edited by DrifterWA (11/28/17 02:20 PM)
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"
"I thought growing older, would take longer"
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#981980 - 11/28/17 04:10 PM
Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET
[Re: Soft bite]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7519
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Assuming constant interceptions, even back then, was wrong from a biological sense but "worked" from an allocation and even conservation.
Escapement should be measured independently so removals by predators (pre spawn) has no effect on the escapement estimate. There are enough problems with how they do escapements anyway, but that's another whole thread.
Net dropout and release mortality should be included. They should be more or less real and not just "agreed-to".
Seals have increased and have learned to fish. In the 80s there were some I knew of in Dungeness Bay that actively fished gillnets.
IF achievement of the escapement target is the primary goal then fished planning starts with a run size, subtracts ALL mortalities, and when the harvestable number is accounted for the fishery is closed. We used to have net dropout as a number. That came off harvest. It can be done, but the short term would mean reductions in fisheries.
Just ask Rivrfshr what would happen to some gill net fisheries if the actual release mortality was accounted for as it occurred.
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