It's only a rumor, but with the huge silver return expected up the Toutle system this year, I heard that there's some tribe that is trying to claim treaty rights to net the Toutle and the Green. Is this true? Has anyone else heard this rumor, or is the guy I heard it from just trying to jerk my chain because he knows how I feel about tribal netting? Let me know what you've heard.

I have heard nothing about this but I am all against it. I hate netting. period. I sure hope that fella was giving you s**t.
Matt

Well, I did hear the same rumor a few years ago. It wouldn't surprise me. I think there is more to it than just the Toutle and Green try the entire Cowlitz!!!!! they won't stop untill they have them all

dc

The Yakama Nation alleges treaty fishing rights in the Cowlitz and Lewis River systems, but such rights have never been adjudicated like their rights to the mid-Columbia and it's tributaries. The state does not recognize the alleged fishing rights and could be expected to oppose any exercise of them until they are adjudicated. The Tribe would like to finesse it without adjudication, if possible, because there is some risk of losing in a federal court. The federal agencies neither recognize nor deny the alleged fishing rights and seem to have a wait and see perspective.

Another player is the Cowlitz Indian Tribe. They have recently received official federal recognition, but the decision is under appeal by the Quinault Indian Nation, due in part to land complications. It seems that certain Indian allotments on the Quinault reservation have Cowlitz member's names to them. So if the Cowlitz Tribe is formally recognized, there may be some question about who has management authority over those lands.

Importantly, the Cowlitz Tribe is a non-treaty tribe, so it would involve some complex legal interpretations for them to acquire off-reservation fishing rights. Since they have no reservation at this time, that is of critical importance. As you may recall, the Chehalis Tribe is a non-treaty tribe. However, they have an official reservation on their home river, and their tribal catch comes from the non-treaty fish allocation.

At this time, no tribe has recognized and uncontested fishing rights to the Cowlitz River or its tributaries.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Hey salmo g I think you may have the cowlitz and chinook mixed up. The cowlitz indeed received federal recognition in early 2000 and the Quinaults did, within, the 90 day period, appeal this and of course it is now back to the BIA. But the Chinook also received federal recognition in December 2000 and the Quinaults appealed this one also within the 90 day period. It is my understanding that the Chinook are the ones with subtantial land allotments on the Quinault reservation.

An interesting side not is the term for the head of the BIA, who granted both these tribes recognition, ran out in december and there now is a new person in that position.

Who the He!! are the f@!#$%^&*Chinook??? And Where the He!! do they think they acquire rights to my F@#$%^& river??????
I'm Cowlitz, and I've never even heard of them.
The Quinault, well, their alleged right comes only after Stevens and his 1854 rubber stamp set of treaties, and I challenge them to grant me guiding privileges on their river before I'll even consider them a real tribe. At best they're ony secondary, and scarcely deservent of homo sapiens status.

Then there's the Yakima, who only lived vicariously through Chief Joseph's victories, back when. Never demonstrated sufficient spine to defend their territories even when a sovereign nation, now they cant even successfully conduct a rain dance and get paid for it. Their only claim to the Cowlitz is that a lot of our people were on the east side gathering berries when they sold out and went tame in 1854. Tribal rights by adverse injection??? Get the He!! out.
Damn Im pissed.
These jerkoffs want our river but havent the cojones to go to bat against TPL or BPA or WDFW and other agencies, when it comes time for the nut-cuttin, and when the fishery is at stake. But just talk about when it comes time for the fish. Ya-ta Fu!!ing Hey.

Lend a hand to a people who didnt understand the language Stevens was trying to shove down the throats of the indigenous people? Yeah Right.
Our tribe is of a culture from another region. Different root languages. Sealth didnt help. At All.
The F%^&*()hypocrites make me sick.
Makes me want to catch and eat a few of them, and settle it the old way.

So if we see any nets on the Cowlitz, I dont are who they belong to, They're coming out. Period.
If this comes to pass, It will be with the blessing of the whole Cowlitz tribe, as I understand the deal currently in place.

The federal recognition process has gone on plenty long enough. The Quinault have had plenty of opportunity to present their objections.
Truth is, they have no valid points, they've drug it on long enough, and it now becomes a matter of enrollment monies. Now their objective is to stall long enough to get someone to pay them to go away.
They're greedy *******s just like DC and Olympia. If you have a thousand votes living on welfare in your district, then youve gotta protect welfare.

So how do you like me now??? Here's a blanketass ready for the warpath.
If you want to make big talk or throw big rocks, be damned sure you have it right..Get it?

Maybe my memory does`nt serve me well, (it normally does`nt) but I thought it was the Chinook tribe that they thought was extinct and the title was being claimed by another tribe last year or the year before before being recognized and reclaiming thier heritage. Correct me on this if I`m wrong.




[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: rainycity ]

[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: rainycity ]

Headhunter,

Please don't be shy. Tell us how you really feel. Let it all out, and you will feel better, trust me.

No the Chinook are not extinct. We did not sign away our land nor would we sell it, which made us non existant in the eyes of the federal government.
And also how can a tribe which is supposed to be extinct own 55% of the alotments on the Quinault Reservation.

As for you Head Hunter You are doing the Cowlitz tribe and the Barnett family a diservice with your hatefull uneducated opinions. In otherwords you put yourself on the same level as the all wise and honorable LittleZoZo.

I congratulate the Cowlitz tribe on thier federal recognition it was a long road and hard work.

Hateful and uneducated? I would have called it a passionate response to having someone try to take something he considers to be his tribes.Your tribe didn't give up its claim to lands with the Gov't and sign a treaty.How can you fault HH for feeling the same way now when there is talk of another tribe trying to infringe on his heritage?

I am glad that you are not a treaty Tribe and don't enjoy the same rights,bestowed and honored, as those that did sign.It's nothing personal,I just don't want another set of nets in the river.I would love to share any river bank with you as long as you fish like the rest of us.

Tchinouk,
Thanks for the correction, I was pretty sure extinct wasn`t the word I wanted to use, (especially when talking about human beings,) it was just the only one that came to mind.
But wasn`t there some sort of renegade tribal
members from another tribe trying to claim the heritage that was rightfully yours? (The Chinooks I`m refering too)
I suppose I should have looked into this but I am not about to get caught up in any sort of racial thing or whatever title a person wants to put on it, I just remember a year or so ago reading about what I thought was the Chinooks trying to re-claim thier heritage, whether or not there was fishing, hunting, land rights or whatever (the article did`nt say,) it was simply about them trying to re-claim thier heritage. I may not care a heck of a lot for netting but the bottom line is, it`s thier right, and not trying to start anything with anybodys "morals" and I probably should`nt even say this, but how many people on this board WOULD`NT use a net if they could? Just a querey

I wouldn't net.I'll bet most of us care more about the rivers we fish,and our sport,than our "right" to kill the fish.

Netters don't.

I know many members of the Cowlitz Tribe. I have worked with Mr. John Barnett for the last 5 years on the relicensing of the Tacoma's Cowlitz River Project #2016. I am not advocating that the Indians should be allowed any new fishing rights on the Cowlitz.

With that being said, if it is to be, then the Cowlitz Tribe should be the ones who get them. Why do you think they have the name "Cowlitz Tribe"?

To date, every member of the Cowlitz Tribe that I have met, really cares about rebuilding our Cowlitz Fish runs. They (John Barnett) have stood by us "white folks" and gone hand-to-hand battle with us against Tacoma during the relicensing process. The Cowlitz Tribe, like other Non-governmental participanting parties have put hundreds of hours into seeing that Tacoma is not let off the hook in the next relicensing period.

Remember, It was rat face Tacoma Power who called in the Yakama Nation into the settlement Agreement process during the last year of a 6-year relicensing process.

It was rat face Tacoma who let the Yakama's get this into the Settlement Agreement; "Under authority of the Treaty of June 9, 1855, the Yakama Nation claims perpetual rights to harvest fish at usual and accustomed places ("U & A") within the upper Cowlitz River basin. NMFS, USFWS, and USFS have a trust responsibility to protect any treaty resources for the benefit of the Yakama Nation. In addition, the Yakama Nation claims a share of the total fisheries harvest within the entire Columbia River basin. Due to a lack of historical documentation, none of the Agencies currently recognize Yakama U & A within the upper Cowlitz River basin. By signing this Agreement, the Parties agree that the issue of the Yakama Nation's treaty fishing rights and harvest allocation is not resolved by this Agreement. However, the Agencies and the Yakama Nation agree to work together on a government-to-government basis to address the issue of recognition by the United States and the State of Washington of Yakama rights to harvest fish within the basin."

It was rat face Tacoma who called in the Yakama's to get the Cowlitz Tribe off their backs. The Cowlitz Tribe demanded volitional fish passage. The Yakama's kissed Tacoma A** and signed onto the Settlement Agreement without requiring any real meaningful fish passage.

At least the Cowlitz Tribe held to their word during the entire relicensing process. Mr. Barnett as publicly stated at numerous public meetings that the Cowlitz Tribe did not want to put any nets into the Cowlitz.

I hold him, as a man, at his word!

Believe me, if we have to have a tribe fishing in the Cowlitz, then the Cowlitz Tribe is the one we want doing it!

Like Salmo G. said, the tribes still have a long ways to go before any nets go into the Cowlitz, or it tributaries.

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????


[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]

Rainy city, I don't know of any renegade Chinook but I do know that the Quinault buisness commitee has called the Chinooks an extict tribe. The Chinook tribe that recieved federal recognition is the group of Lower Chinook that live in Pacific,and Grays Harbor county. And several in the Vancouver and Portland areas.
With the Dawes act which created the alotments on the Indian reservations the Chinook lost thier tribal name.
When You got your 80 acre alotment on the Quinalt reservation the government recognized the Chinook as a Quinault Indian
which complicates things.
The Chinook Tribe itself has no tribal rights on the Quinault reservation, nor do we want them.
As for Mr Head Hunter when I say educate I mean to talk to his tribal council and he will find out that the Chinook would not try to net the Cowlitz tribes river.
The Cowlitz and Chinook have a very good working relationship, we also have had the same law firm in Washington D.C. for the past 25 years.
Headhunter I am sorry that you have never heard of the Chinook Tribe. I guess it is not your fault that you dont.
Thank You.

Tchinouk: I don't blame you for disliking me... Usually, whenever an individual comes out and states the real facts of the matter, it always pisses a few people off. Man, if I was an Indian, I'd hate people like me! I come out, and I criticize the tribes, I say that they don't deserve the free meal ticket that they are getting and that pisses you off. It makes you feel threatened to hear somebody actually make an intellegent arguement against your cause.... An arguement that you and your people have no rebutal for other than the old "Treaty rights" standby. Well, your "Treaty Rights" don't amount to a hill of beans in my book. I'll tell you what, quit sitting there expecting that everything in life is owed to you just because of your race..... Sart to put back into the system something more than what you are taking out of it. Re-evaluate your belief that because you have some Native American blood in your veins, the United States Government somehow owes you a hand out. Do all of those things and you will have earned the right to openly take shots at me. Until then, keep your half cocked opinions to yourself.... Oh, by the way, feel free to E-mail me if anything I've said has touched a nerve.

[ 07-22-2001: Message edited by: LittleZoZo ]

Headhunter: Pease, do me a favor and explain to me how the Cowlitz is "Your River". Has the Cowlitz tribe, or ANY Tribe for that matter, ever made a single contribution to the well being of the Cowlitz system? I'm very curious to hear you answer on this, as I can never remember the Tribes ever doing anything positive on the Cowlitz system. Hell, nobody even wnted the Cowlitz until it started to getting decent Silver returns a few years ago. Seriously, What makes the Cowlitz River "Your River"? Is it because the Cowlitz Tribe runs a big Hatchery on the Cowlitz? Oh, wait, never mind, the Tribes don't have any hatcheries on the Cowlitz. Is it because of the Millions of dollars the tribe has pumped into the Cowlitz in the name of Salmon recovery? Wait, wait, I was mistaken again, The Tibes don't spend money on stuff like that.... They spend the U.S. Governments money, and then B!tch for more. Oh, oh, oh, I've got it! The Cowlitz is "Your river" because Your Tribe is of the same name & that alone is supposed to give you free reign of the entire Cowlitz system. Well, I have an idea. I'm going to form the "Fort Knox" Indian Tribe. I'm going to go to court and try to figure out what all those soldiers are doing in "My Fort" with "My Gold"..... Would anyone like to join?

Count me in Little Zozo! If a name is all it takes for them I don't see why it wouldn't work for us

~ Dr Pepper

Headhunter I was just correcting Salmo g on which tribe has the allotments, I was not indicating that the Chinook should have fishing rights on the Cowlitz. Although,I do find it strange that you have never heard of the Chinook.