Okay everyone this has really been the worst year I've ever seen. Other than cursing, threatening, screaming, threatening violence( I really hate to hear this from people I consider to be the "salt of the earth" types), and everything else what can we really constructively and positively do? Those of you who've paid attention to the Quil thread know that I've been almost daily fishing in whats turned into an outright meat fishery. I'm there because it's part of my home,the run is really something to experience and I know how to fish it and keep the snaggers out of my hair. I do my best between FishOn! moments to educate but this reaches only a few as I'am one of the few. I do my best. From what I'm readin on this board I feel like we're all the few amongst a larger population of people who consider themselves socalled sportsman/woman/children but have less than ideal notions of what is ethical, legal and proper. There is and always will be those Quilabillie types from allover that will never understand or learn that these fish are capable of being caught legal and in most cases can be more successfully caught that way than by illegal means. Nothing we can do will change their ways. But what about Joe Fisherman? I've seen too many guys with their kids even(!) dressed in the best neoprenes, vests with all the gizmos, fancy clothes, glasses, hats,top of the line rods and reels, the whole nine yards snagging fish and abusing protected fish. I don't really understand this...I guess criminal behavior and lack of class does cross Classlines. So what I'd like is a serious discussion of what we can do ....small and large...as individuals and groups to change this ugly lack of respect for the law, ethics, and ultimately the resource. RT1's posts regarding PETA is a serious item as those people can point to these snagfests as examples why fishing is a heinous abuse of animals and a reason why it should all be stopped. I am working on a draft outline of ideas that I'll post next week and welcome any and all input...well except hang or shoot the suckers.

Always FishOn!
Recently Piscatorially Challenged
Cove RV Park&Tackle Prostaff(1)

Gooose

Please let it rain! Really please? My kingdom for even a sprinkle!

Well Goose, I finally have a good enough reason to post here.
You're talkin about what we can do, which is good, but are'nt you a fisheries biologist?
What I'm sayin is that we small timers don't have near the clout you should have in OLY.
You're insight from the westside of the hood is invaluble, but, don't you really have the bigtime kahunas that us local, everyday fisher's can't own up to?
Peace, and keep those kick ass reports comin!
Hope I don't have you mixed up with someone else, but don't think so.

How about a ghillie suit, and a high powered rifle, err, I mean video camera. I am sure that you see some regulars. If it also possible to get pictures of their vehicles covertly, then it would be good to link the snagger with their vehicles for ID purposes, especially for the out of towners.

The "eyes in the woods" program was designed just for folks like you who are fed up with the issues surrounding any type of poaching.

You can also casually mention that you saw one of the "undercover gamies" a few minutes ago to some of the snaggers. That might quiet things down for a bit. Please don't single out anyone as the "undercover gamie", except for maybe one of the other snaggers.

Andy

This may sound overly cynical, but short of changing human nature, which we all know is IMPOSSIBLE, I dont see any 100% effective solution. An enforcement presence would probably be the best deterrent, but we all know about the budget issues etc... that keep the wardens spread thin. It's the greedy mob mentality. People think "Hey there is a sh!tload of fish here, I'm gonna get me some, and I don't care how I do it". Those of us that are law abiding, respect the resource, and enjoy the challenge of getting the fish to bite, were probably raised in a situation where parental involvement instilled in us a sense of right and wrong. The rest of the snagging scum, who knows? The way I see it, we either close down the terminal "meat" fisheries, or somehow get the WDFW to acknowledge the problem, and budget the funds for more enforcement.

Want to fight snagging? Make these fisheries "bait only" instead of "selective gear rules". I'd like to see a snagger create a way to snag with a gob of eggs on the hook.

The "eyes in the woods" program has some potential. I thought the reason the Samish was opened for Chinook was the creation of some kind of citizen overwatch group involing the steelhead club in the Skagit area. Is it still being used and if so is it working at least to some degree? Ackwowledged that there will never be a 100% cure...myself I have been working on converting the few. When that isn't an option I do like I did today and walk right into the middle of the snaggers at Rodgers Street...third time through busted a nice dime bright piggie which cooperated by blastin through the surface showing my black yarn fly solid in the dentures for all the "Honyachs" to see. Seconds later it parted my leader leavin the hole. Lots of Ooohs and Aaahs which I loudly replied to as I left for my solitary spot upstream..."Yep, that dam black yarn hooks em legal every time." Chased off a couple of idiots from my favorite hole who wanted a shot at my action. They took up station just below me. Released five good sized bright fish over the next hour....this really gets you some wierd looks. Headed back down to find my partner who was doing the same thing. Everyone who asked me how we did got the same reply..."released 5 nice ones all hooked legal in the beak with black yarn."
More wierd looks. Did this make a impression...probably not...but what if we saturated a good portion of the river with everyone doing the same thing? Now that should make an impression! Could the same be done on the Skok or other snaghavens? The bait idea actually is a good idea in that if you could use eggs on the Quil your catch rate of legal caught fish would be sky high. First fished this river in 1989 when you could use bait...that first hen really made my day and the next four.

No Longer Piscatorially Challenged
Always FishOn!
Gooose

Gooose,
Do you know why in the world you can't use baits or scents on the Quilcene?? Seemed kind of odd to me.
Frustrating seeing those fish and thinking "If only I had my eggs with me...."

Terminal fisheries do bring out the worst in "fishermen"! There are plenty of examples. My opinion is that we all need to get active (and not just on this bulletin board) try the WSC or TU or ???? There are many forums to get our message out! Our local Port Angeles TU chapter is working with the elementary schools to educate the future generation of fisherpeople, that is where I feel I can do the most good. Teaching how to properly release fish, ethics, river ettiqute, etc... Not to bash baitchuckers and gearheads, but I do see flyfishermen acting in a more acceptable manner. I fished the Qull 5 days, and out fished every non-flyfisherman on the river! The only people that even mentioned hooking in the mouth was other fly guys. I think that there are definite personality, ethics characteristics between fly and gear guys. Think about it. I am not bashing gear people, just calling it as I see it. So, spend a few hours a month working with your local organization and get something going!

Sinker they automatically put "Selective Gear" regulations in place as a measure to protect the listed Chum run. Hence the no bait rule. I would personally like to keep the single barbless hook rule but allow bait. The damage to the Dogs would not be any greater and we'd be able to really harvest those silvers. My methods uses really heavy lead...minimum 3 to 4 inches of 1/4 pencil which usually allows me to detach myself from even hookups in the mouth on the Dogs by just being gentle as possible in fighting them and allowing the lead to usually cause the hookup to seperate. And no I'm not snagging using this ton of lead! Superfly can attest to that...it's just the technique that works. To change the rules you need to submit it to the F&W commission like now!

Steeliegreg your on dude...you pick the water...my spot or yours as long as it not out at the mouth where you guys really have the advantage which I've always acknowledged. We can fish the upper river where the fish are old and dark and lacking spunk or we can fish down low where the fish are saltwater fresh, big and mean . I'd really like to see your choice of rigup if your fishin anyplace but the mouth...bet it includes a split shot or two? :p If not my sincere apologies but if so then how are you really different from us gearchuckers other than a rod'n'reel handicap? Don't get me wrong I love flyfishing and tying flies but from what I've seen driftin a little pink fly below a couple of split shots is the choice of all the flyfloggers I've seen on the Quil. :p Do you dare fish Gooose's special "Nirvana Hole" ...its typically snagger free and has special qualities similar to water and sandtrap hazards in golf. A real challenge of individual skills and techniques.

Enough of that for now. SG I am in total agreement with you about workin on the snagger and education thing. Right now I'm thinking that doing the Banktilla thing on selected portions of these rivers and inviting the media might be an option to explore. Imagine several dozen of us taking over a section of prime riverbank well before daylight? Would that make an impression. SG if anything keep up the efforts. Peace.

Cove RV Park & Tackle Prostaff(1)
Always FishOn!
Gooose

Used to be a reg that required attached lead to be a foot above your lure. Didn't no it had gone awat until this year. A single barbless hook with no bait but with pencillead wrapped around the shank or if your a real pro 3 to 6 inches below you hook is legal! Years ago it was only the bushflogging flyfisherman with their split shot and the outright outlaws you saw violating this reg on the Quil. Now everyone just says hey it's legal gear as long as its a single barbless hook. . Here's a change waitin to happen!

Cove RV Park & Tackle Prostaff(1)
Always FishOn!
Gooose

Thanks for your effort and ideas here Goose! There are more important reasons than many of us realize to stop the increase in snagging any way we can. Get in their faces and get them on camcorders with the help of buddies - but don't let the enemies of sportfishing such as PETA or Indians to get hold of the snagging film; take them to enforcement authorites. Also, write the WDFW/ODFW and your state reps to dramatically increase snagging fines. This will not only be a better deterent, there will still be enough stupid selfish scumbags caught and fined heavily so that the increased revenue will pay for more enforcement officers afield!. Here is my post from a similar thread on ifish:

Snagging must be thwarted any way we can. Period! The excess fish are not destined to be taken by the states and buried somewhere; where did you get that idea fishbait? It would be much better to have the excess fish sold to pet food companies to generate much needed dept. revenues, and the brats not caught or making it back into the hatchery ponds become important stream nutrients for native and hatchery fry and smolts, than to allow or ignore snagging!!! The last thing we want to do is promote more adult lowlife snaggers and future generations of snaggers by turning our backs on them, or be accepting of it! Because that is definitely what is happening - growing numbers of snaggers getting away with it; that will be out there, sometimes teaching their kids this, snagging away when the cycle of fish runs get back to low returns again. I just can not see any way to rationalize allowing butt snaggers, regardless of the abundance of fish for awhile. No way! I would also much rather see the Indians get dip netted excess hatchery fish than allow snagging. The Treaties and the Federal Court review cases have mandated that if one group between the Indians and non-Indians get more fish in a given year then the other group is to get more opportunity the following year. The Indians, NMFS, and the wussies in Washington D.C. have pretty much ignored this legal mandate, just as they have the mandated 50/50 split of fish. But all these fish taken by the Indians will someday come around to be weighed in on how the rules will be interpreted and even voted on in the future. DON'T allow snagging, and snaggers on news station film, to hurt the sportfisher's causes with such negative images for the general and non-fishing public to see before elections!!!!! Wake up! Amen.

IS IT TIME FOR PROPERLY PLANNED VIGILANTE ACTION?

Maybe it's time to get after this. I am to the point of wanting to do a legal viglante 'posse' task force with about a dozen of us doing 'stings' in snagging hot spots. It is legal to carry a handgun while fishing, as well as a deterent sheathed knife on your belt. We can all go legally armed with fishing rods in hand together, and then after observing and filming snagging we then go down and very nicely explain that "This snagging is not just illegal. It is a major threat to our sportfishing rights. Like having rivers closed and PETA efforts to close down all fishing; as well as being against the law". We can say it aloud and also hand out flyers with this message printed on them. With a large posse there even the hardest core snaggers are going to get the message that they are in immediate or eventual trouble - both individually and for keeping rivers open. Also tell them that they have been filmed and their license plate numbers taken to be turned into authorities, and that they will be targeted by cops and vigilantes if they continue to snag. This will widely get around to snaggers very quickly. And they aren't about to add fighting to their snagging law breaking - but we'd be prepared to appropriately handle that anyway. ... This needs to be thwarted soon!!!

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: RT 1 ]

RT 1 thanks guy for the support! Thought my "Full of the Moon" comments elsewhere may have done some damage. Okay Gooose is worn out and really pissed . Sunday afternoon headed for my favorite spot up from Rogers Street....spotted maybe a dozen silvers in between. Didn't matter much as the big run had been the last 2 hours of daylight and it had been very satisfying to Gooose's soul. Parked my weary butt and prepared my dozen black yarn rigs neatly on the Alder log in preparation for the expected duel evenings frenzy. Four hours later I had the whole river up there to myself. In that time spent a lot of time reflecting on my thoughts and what I've expressed here and there on this board. Four hours and a whole 3 silvers pass up river into my spot. Two made it by but the third...a really nice bright 9-10 lb buck got hooked in the pectoral...played out carefully and released it. Darn thing swam right back into my zone and decided to chew on black yarn. Haven't bonked a fish in days but decided genetic selection was best for this guy. So now the suns down and I decide to wander downstream to maybe find a fish or two...nothing and no people. I finally get to the Cement Wall Hole and find where everyone is. For 100 yards it's elbow to a$$hole snaggers with a dozen of them even down below in closed waters !!!
Huge beautiful chrome silvers all over the bank...and not a legal soul in sight! Every type of person and gear type...yeah even a couple of dudes in the "rivers runs through it" outfits using dare I say it! Yeah I will.. frickin FLYRODS with 30 pound test Proline for leaders according to the floggers using them!!! ! I was so shocked I stayed and witnessed! Every silver entering the target zone was loudly announced and promptly prosecuted. Nothing survived! Nothing..no respect for the individual fish and gawd they were so beautiful. Sorry but Gooose is real emotional after this experience
...think I'll spend some time doing the CNR thing on the Duck and Dosie. No people, peaceful waters and clean scenery and some nice SRC to challenge me. Time to do a little repair of soul. If it rains I'll be back but enough of the Quil until then.

Sorry for the long baring of my feelings...I am still composing my draft post of some major ideas on this issue. It'll be here this week. Peace and big fish to you all(even those comin to the SOP from down south).


A very worn out Gooose just says to all of you!

Goose,

I posted this in the Quilsene thread:

It's time for some properly performed vigilante task anti-snagging groups. Since there's not enough money for officers and the state's legislatures lack the nads to raise the fines way up to pay for more enforcement and deterence, I think it's time we do something to clean it up - or we will be hurt in the short and long run! I have a good hunch that WA guys like 'Yall, Os, TM, and Superfly would help out with this - and surely other Oregon guys than Trick and I would be willing to help out. This would be relatively quite safe, and very ethical and beneficial, in my honest opinion. I'd even do it with a couple of appropriate guys and I'd volunteer to be the spokesman; but a half dozen guys would be better. Here is what I would say: "Hi guys. We are from the Brotherhood of Ethical Fisherman (or whatever). We've been alerted that there is a snagging problem on some rivers such as this one. We just would like to show you a better and legal way to catch these fish. We also want to alert you that game officers and volunteer anglers are going to be monitoring rivers this fall to stop illegal snagging. It's important in order to keep the rivers open and to keep our future fishing rights intact. Here are some flyers for you that you need to read, about the laws and potential upcoming situations. Any questions?" Or whatever it takes in the unlikely event that proper approach doesn't do the job! ... Joe, let me know if you guys want to do a little fishing and snagger thwarting on the Quil or wherever it's needed. I will meet you there ASAP. For the bigger snagfests such as at the Barrier dam on the Cowlitz, we should alert the gammies (who would likely show up to add credence), and we should have a couple dozen guys go in with a bullhorn and in so many words tell them the snagging party is over for the season. We could spread out (with whistles at hand) and fish along side them and help the 'mentally challenged' ones to release snagged fish. It's legal to arm yourself while fishing, if you feel it's warranted. I doubt very much that any violence would occur under these circumstances, and it would do some good!

RT

Everyone please read my most recent post on the Quil River thread! These guys are advocating making snaggin legal!
They claim the complainers are few! Are we? Are we such a small group ...the response this thread I started makes me wonder? I will make my promised post of my draft thoughts/plan on Friday evening. My concern is except for a few of us this is a dead horse...and as the old valued Indian friend once told me "the best thing to do with a dead horse is get off it!" If it's action we want why not post the contents of this thread to a bunch of other sites? I leave that action to those who run this BB if it can be done? Hey I'm sorry for being a little angry but the Vicodins only contain a little of the Wock Wabbit encured pain!

I'm back and fishin,just a little sedated!
Cove RV Park & Tackle Prostaff(1)
Always FishOn!
Gooose

Okay, here's my thoughts.

First of all we an identity to establish our presence on the river. I'm thinking hats, patche, decals, t-shirts and sweatshirts with some kind of logo would work. I jave no idea of how to create these products and distribute them...I'll leave that to the more experienced. Sorry Storm'N but I'm not a fan of blaze orange or any other bright colors when fishing...not putting your idea down just that bright colors tends to scare fish. Your suggestion for the "Snagger Free Zone" is great...hmm must of read my mind. Others that come to mind are "Snaggers Are Poachers" and "Snagging Is Against The Law" or Real Fisherman Don't Snag."

Second we need to establish our presence as individuals and groups by our actions.

Individual actions around snaggers are simple. Just catch fish legally, be vocal about catching them legal and the methods/gear you use. Release legal caught fish in front of them and brag about it and how many legal fish you've released beforehand. This really tends to piss them off...and guess what your havin fun.If anyone express' interest in how you're managing to catch fish legal help them out. Give them a legal setup or two and show them how. This type of action will be difficult when your overwhelmed by a crowd so look for waters where you only have to deal with a few. In my case I've only had to make a few brief firm but calm comments to defend my ground and usually spend a lot of time doing the education thing between fish.

Group actions can take two forms. The first simply being a bunch of us getting together for a day of fishing. Show up early and take one or more streches of good water. In the lower Quil where I fish a group of 6 to ten could take over 3 to 5 really good spots and be able to defend them. All snaggers would be forced to spots on the fringes where they would spend most of their time watching us have fun. Several teams on the river would be very dramatic in impact. Word would spread up and down the river in a hurry. If we're all displaying our logo so much the better. This type of action doesn't take a whole lot of planning and should be repeated on the same stretches of water repeatedly. The second type of group action is more confrontational. Personally it's not my style but sadly will be needed. A large group of a dozen or more would be needed with a spokesman or two. The effort should be well planned and thought out ahead of time and announced to the media as an educational event not a confrontation. This type of action would best be used on opening days, preferably weekends, to have the greatest effect on these snagfests as they occur.

we need to work on changing the law sio that there are mandatory minimum fines, lifetime loss of fishing priveleges upon receiving a second snagging ticket, redirection of a portion of these fines to a special fund to hire retired law enforcement officers on a temporary basis, the allowance of bait on rivers like the Quil where it would enhance or legal catchin ability while not impacting nontarget stocks, and finally we need to prohibit certain gear types and methods of rigging that are used for snagging.

We need to work on development of an organized volunteer group similar to the "Eyes in the Woods" group. They are really well organized and effective. Development and placement of signs advertising our presence, purpose and the rules at access sites is another effective tool. We need to develop outreach events for youths to teach them the right way to actch fish.

Finally we need to avoid the old arguments between the different gear type users about who is more pure and ethical. We need a joining between all of us as we all have a stake in this and we need numbers not bickering.

There you all have it. Comment and add to it as you desire.

Always FishOn!
Gooose

Since this is relevant to this thread, I'm posting it here as well:

For those of you that don't know. There is a toll free hotline that you can call to report illegal activities that you see. You can also fill out a incident report form online.

1-800-477-6224

STOP WASHINGTON POACHERS

I encorage those that witness this illegal activity to report it each time they see it happen. This will alert the WDFG to the problem so that an enforcement action can be taken. If it can't happen immediately because of resources, it will happen eventually at that location, if more people report on the activity that they are seeing. An added bonus of this would be that a database is then amased on the problem. WDFG then has the data to back up the request for more funds for enforcement from the legislature when the time comes.

You are the stewards, it's your resource.
Time to be active, not passive.

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Gregor ]

Gregor thanks! This evening I spoke with an enforcement officer on the Quil...they are going to be having a discussion on what to do about next year. Be nice if we could as an organized group be part of this. I am also going to meet with the local TU chapter to discuss what to do with them. Today I practiced a little more extreme form of individual action. Right at dark a small group of us were havin a discussion while observing the half dozen snaggers, 3 of whom were obvious urban cowboy types, at the main Rodgers Hole. We were talkin about how even the fish in the bay were not biting that well. On of the cowboys turned around and made the comment that "the fish fish in the river don't bite at all." Gooose promptly whipped catch record card and stuck it in his face and loudly for all the local snaggers to hear told him every d#mm fish
on it was legal caught and that it was a $500 dollar fine for each snagged fish and $500 would buy one H#ll of lot of fish at Safeways! Geez couldn't believe it the cowboys and locals just cleared out leavin me the first and best legal spot on the river. As I had spent all day packin out litter and wasn't really interested in fishin after that I just said good luck to the few survivors in the hole and headed home. Maybe my type of individual action needs to become a litle more beliigerent.

Cove RV Park & Tackle Prostaff(1)
Always FishOn!
Gooose

All of you who have contributed to this thread thanks a huge bunch but from what I'm see'in this may be a "dead horse" or "tiltin at windmills" subject. We have whine from the Kalama, Lewis, Toutle, Snohomish and every place between...so I'm thinkin of startin my own fishermans internet cheese sales and shipping business ....seems like it might get me enough for early retirement :p !
At least these whiners would have some solid food in their stomachs to go along with the whine. Nothing about puttin down you guys who responded and some I know from this board are activists but just haven't responded for whatever reason(s).
I know all of us have our thoughts on more personal and worldly thoughts right now and many are busy with being guides and such so maybe I'll let this one rest until later. I'll do my thing and I'm seriously considering the "Fishermans Whine&Cheese" business :p .

Cove RV Park & Tackle Prostaff(1)
Always FishOn!
Gooose

After tonites readin of several posts I'm seeing some good stuff so I'll continue. SkaGuy hit the nail on the head. I've found that making friends or acquaintenances with the local FW enforcement officers is a easy and satisfying way to put the hurt on those unsportsman who ruin our days in legal & ethical pursuit of fish & game. They will try to the very best of their ability and resources to respond to your reports. Collect info like descriptions, boat #s and vehicle #s. Evert bit helps. Shoot I was personally good for about $4000 dollars in busts several years ago....at least I had the satisfaction of knowing I personally hurt these poachers! As for the Oregon system I don't know...in Washington the officers spend a good portion of their time educating the public on a huge amount of conservation issues whereas in Oregon my understanding it's just like being on the Highway...you speed you get a ticket. Not making any judgements. I do know that locally on the Quil our enforcement has written around a hundred tickets in less than 30 days using one to three officers per day. Most of these are for snagging which is $500. There has been one apparently for $13,500 ! Has it had an effect? Hard to tell...not seein as much snaggin and it looks like a small group of regulars is still at it. Along with an influx of nonlocal urban cowboy types who don't know a skanky dog from a silver. Antway for those who are tryin don't give up.
For the others what's your preference of cheese...hopefully Velveeta as I may just corner the market :p.

Cove RV Park & Tackle Prostaff(1)
Always FishOn!
Gooose

So if the world ended tomorrow... you would still have cockroaches, magpies, and people from "Elk grove CA..." SORRY GUYS...THAT DICKHEAD PISSED ME OFF!!!! And you guys that have been around awhile know that I keep it under wraps almost always