Ok this is my 2 bits on the pontoon thing. I am biulding a 16' Cat.(and allmost done!!!) now that is a big one!!! these lil 12 ' things are NOT big!!!!I call them kittens they are allright for 1 or 2 guys. I tried to fish off a 10' outcast. I hated it. every time you shift yer body the boat turned. it made it very hard to drift and fish. all it was for is getting from one gravel bar to the next. it was fun to float in but NOT for fishing. I would say the 12' boat that O's has is just fine for 1 guy. I would go with WING or SOTAR Tubes. have a custom frame biult and you will be happy.

As for a raft? get real!! those things are like drag racing with a train!!! they go where the river pushes them.

If money is seriously no biggy then go with the Helicoter thing!!!!! screw the boat and fly. I think that is my next project. :p

dc

James,

That day in upper EF I was following a buddy in his kayak. It was a combo whitewater/fishing trip in late winter and we were traveling light. I normally don't like to fish the EF so far up as I feel those fish have earned their peace making it that far. It was more of a scenic tour as I had never done it before nor since. My buddy ran everything in the EF that day, still does, while there were several spots I couldn't/wouldn't. Horseshoe was one of them. The Bucks Bag Bronco is 32 lbs - empty. The way the frame was I could rest it on my shoulders, fully assembled and "Back-pack" it with the stern up. You could also rope it around some of the stuff. The roughest water I ran with it had to be the Trestle area. I stayed in the thing and hugged the south side. I got wet but I was still sitting on the boat at the bottom. That didn't always work out so well for me in some of the rapids.
The Bronco was an excellent size pontoon boat for what I liked to do. I sold it to one of the guys on here not too long ago. I have messed around some with kayaks lately but don't enjoy them as much - too bloody cold/wet!
x

Yeah, iit's boat wars on here. A 12' isn't that big. Yes, it's biger then a 9' andheavier then an outcast, but they are very easy to drag (and designed to TAKE th abuse of dragging).

Ryan, I think since Outcast has dropped their ratings over the yeas, is probably why you don't see the frames tweaked. I've personally have seen a half dozen tweak, an Ii've had my own Outcast 10 years ago creak and twist (but lluckily not snap/fold) on a class 4. I knnw alot of my budies up north in my old whitewatering club would use ther hardcore boats running the hard water. May be wy you dn't see any boats comme in. Most guys (even if it's nly abotu $1000) take thir investments and run them in anything over a class 3.

Ok, I'd say again, and reconfirm what Os said, that a 12' boat is the way to go. But if you want a smaler portable boat. Then here's thedeal. You wnt a boat you can stand up and fish from. Right?? Then rule out the Outcasts. Buy a 9' Steelheader from Skokum. It's a cataraft grade boat and you can STAND UP AND FISH!!!!! (DISCLAIMER) I run an Aire. And yes Outcast has Aire build their tubes. But Aire builds their tubes to OUTCASTS specs (including design and strenght of tube material). Doesn't make it sa quality, just makes it from same manufacturer (example, Chevy makesa chevette and it makes the K5 Blazer, but since they are both Chevys, does it make tem both the same design and built th same???) Sure, you could drive a chevete off the main road, an go running logging roads with it, but wouldn't you rather have a 4WD???

You have the money, have a custo boat built. You CAN"T stand up and fish from an Outcast. I do believe Wing has a 10' set of tubes, but seriously speaking, you'l love a 12' set of tubes. I've owned DB's, kayaks, ponton boats, catarafts, an have run many styles of pontoon boats, catarafts, B's, and Rafts. (Most of y cataraft/Raft running was almost exclusively whitewatering during the mid/late 80's). Heck, why buy an outcast?? You can run alot more water and outfit a Kayak to suit your needs. You can even run Clas 5's (I have in akayak on the upper Nisqualy). You've said what you want, and you'l be more suited to a cataraft. If all else fails, tallk with Osprey, and check out his 12' Wing. Then you'l see how "'big" his boat realy is. Now my 16' Aire, it' a monster. LOL

Ok let me explain
he asked for the ultimate one-man boat..peroid
Haveing a boat to fish off is the key!!!!other wise use a float tube.
If I'm gonna spend the bucks I want something I can anchor and fish off any where I want to,if it just gets me from point to point,I'm missing water that if I could fish.
Sure you can stand up on 9'...scary
Heck I've fished off the front of a 13' outcast ...never again.
even the smaller boats have anchors,but just because you're anchored doesn't solve this problem,on a smaller boat you don't have a good angle to view the water you want to fish,you can't see structure or the bottom or the fish
Thats why you need to be able to stand...(safely)

If being able to put the thing on you're back and hike is the key then you're missing the boat (jk)
Because It needs to be able to handle everything you want to throw at it.

Argueing with Sparky on this topic......No thanks
I've got shoes older than him

I'm looking for a pontoon boat, too. The criteria is to supplement the drift boat, (but not replace it), fish different water, and pre-explore rivers I wouldnt go to just blindly.
So the partner and I went to the sportsmen's show for a look-see, and of the 3 or 4 displays there, the one we kept coming back to was the Skookum rafts. Their Steelheader and Osprey models have the best looking features; general ruggedness, and safety I think we're looking for. Their 10' pontoons are 19" dia. and look really tough, and the boats come fully equipped for a very competitive price. They also have great-sounding load capacities.
There are some down sides, though. I'd hoped to be able to just throw it into the back of the pickup, tie it down and go. They're too wide. The longer and wider boat will be tough to get into some places like beaver ponds, smaller streams, etc. Standing on the platform could face plant you into the river, if it takes a lurch.
Over-all, though, I can see myself on one of the Skookums over the others.

After you decide which pontoon boat to buy, you will need to determine which HOOKS ARE BEST to fish from it

Perfectdrift:

It appears as though you are leaning towards the smaller boats (less than ten feet). Just to let you know there are many of these boats sold on e-bay, in fact there is even the exact boat sparky is talking about on there now. Also, just so that you know these smaller boats are a pain in the butt to fish off, and are really only for transportation from gravel bar to gravel bar.

Thanks for all the input guys!! Learning a lot here regarding inflatables.

Osprey, sounds like you make one mean boat that is top of the line. However, fishing while standing isn't the priority. Getting into areas on smaller rivers and creeks (example: Naselle-upper and lower, Elochoman, etc. *Please note* these are just expamples of smaller watersheds that I might float, or other drainages that resemble these in size. Some might even be SMALLER, especially during lower water conditions) where I cannot get to by foot, is. A lot of these creeks, will probably have many sweepers and log jams where I have no choice but to walk around. Outliketrout said it best, "gravel bar to gravel bar". Most of the fishing will be done by pulling off to the side, hopping out, and working the stretch in that fashion. Now you know what a good percentage of areas I'll be floating. But....

If were to decide I'd like to fish the uppper Sol Duc, Hoh, or other river with more size during moderate/lower water conditions. Is there a PWC that can do both. Like I've mentioned before, if a stretch of whitewater on a larger river is too much for it, I once again can walk around it. But if I decide that I willing to oar through it, is there a PWC that can do the smaller rivers, yet handle decent whitewater??? We are not talking CLASS V's here..... But it has to be of good quaility, that's why I mentioned money isn't the major concern.

Does such a PWC exist? Small, lightweight, rugged, yet stable enough to handle some rougher water?? How much does the 9' weigh O's??

Thanks,

James

Perfect Drift great questions!
I've built a few small frames like you discribed for a set of Wing 10'(the best tubes around) they are not a huge diameter something around 16-17" ,But these tubes were designed for white water,so depending on the frame componets you want,i.e anchor system,some way to stand up (not what you think),etc etc. I assume you'll be around 40-50lbs maybe less.These smaller frames have their place just like you've discribed.I won't go into design features here,thats what make my frames so unique;)
The boat has to fit you're needs,good luck....Os

btw as far as an over the counter boat for what do what I'd look at the Steelheader,
IMHO he has a few design flaws.....
That's why I built my own:D

If money is no object buy two boats. One like the Watermaster or Abel Travelcraft (the new versions have much larger tubes than the old toten'float described above and sit WAY higher out of the water and track very nicely on rivers up to class III) that are self contained for packability (ifn' and when you want to bushwack that 1/2 mile into the upper part of a great drift otherwise unnaccessible...try packing an stainless frame, 8 ft. tubes and your gear 4-plus miles up the Queets in one shot). It just gives you the option of fishing less pressured water with ease. For the other rig, have Os' make you a killer type IV chewer that can pack the farm with it with no worries.

Great replies gentlemen!!! Keep em coming! Another question for all, O's, Sparky, ctflyfish, and the rest.

Let's say your floatin the upper Duc during lower water flows and you get "high centered" or pinned up against a rock, which slides better over the top, a raft style PWC, or a pontoon??

Thanks

James

PD-
I do not have any personell experience in rafts and I do not have alot when it comes to being pinned on rocks and such but I have had a couple nasty experiences.

The Pac 900 because it sits so high in the water it slides right over rocks plus it has a very very low center of gravity so they are very difficult to tip. When I have rowed boulder gardens, I do not find it necassary to row around all the rocks. Many times I just give one hard push on the oars, hit the rock and spin off.

One time on the Upper Hoh, coming into the Upper Canyon, there is a very nasty short section where there is heavy brush against the one bank that has the good current and free of rocks while the the rest of it is littered with VW Bug sizes rocks. The drop into it is very steep yet shallow and has an incredible amount of flow.

Anyways, as I was coming down, I was planning the bst way to pick through the boulders. I was not paying attention to the oars and accidently lodged the right oar between two rocks. The boat spun broadsize to the current and totally pinned me against the oar with full current pushing against the left side of the boat. The left pontoon came completely out of the water and the boat pivoted around the oar almost 180 degrees and shot me into the run backwards.

After that experience, I realized these boats are incredibly difficult to tip especially considering they weigh around 50 pounds. The amount of current forced against that boat was incredible and if that boat was to of ever have tipped that would have been the time.

Well, the raft style at least gives you the opportunity to bounce of the obstacle before it is right under your arse. There is several spots on the Queets we've purposely seen how the two styles of boats (Watermaster and Pontoon) would act in that situation (taking into consideration every situation has many variables coming at you QUICKLY) and we could not get the Watermaster to stick on the rock...it glanced one way or the other. But, I wan't operating the pontoon and don't ever get in one anymore since I have the other rig.
I'll agree that in heavier situations the longer pontoons would serve you better, but tailor your purchase to what you'll be fishing the most and go from there. There was an Abel Travelcraft on the virtual flyshop, brand new, for around $700 bucks the other day. Regular price is $1300. I also know of a new Watermaster Kodiak (the 8foot boat with BIG tubes and large carrying capacity with motor mount, upgraded Carlises, all the bells and whistles that is being sold at dealer cost). Email me if you want the phone # for the shop.

Great info! I too have been thinking about buying a pontoon.

RP, is the Fishcat 9' Deluxe model comparable to the PAC 900? What class of Rapids can each handle? Does the Fishcat also carry a 10 yr. warranty? To me the 2 boats look very similar, in structure and design, but I would value your opinion since you mentioned that you sell these.

My second question is about fishability. Can you drag a small anchor from these (thru swift water)and pull plugs or divers all day long as you would do in a drift boat. What size rope/anchor would you recommend?

I have never been in that situation,fishing solo,Got hung up once fishing 2 guys,(go on a diet Danny) but we were just pinned against a rock in low flows,a little wiggling and we were clear ,with all my gear and me 6'- 205 it still only draws maybe 3-4 ",and the wonerful thing about urethane is when it gets wet it gets slick,I have abused my boat I normally drag it,it has been across blackberrys and 1 barb wire fence(that I know of)
That pac 900 is Ok if you don't weight much.

I have soo much confidence in my boat,I look for tuff stuff,why go around when you can just go thru.......Os

nwsteel-
I could not tell you the exact differances between the FishCat and Outcast as we only sold there for a short period of time a couple years (too many problems with the Fishcat). I can guarentee you though that the FishCat does not have the 10 year warranty as the Pac 9, which is the midrange model, has only a 3 yr warranty.

Do not buy the FishCats...you will regret it.

If you are concenred about money look towards the Bucks Bag SouthFork or the Outcast Pac 9.

Trust me...

dangnabitt Os', these Watermasters put me so high outa the water they've compromised my diet plan...I'm gonna have to only go down to 265 to sit 8 inches outa the water!!

The most awesome watercraft is soon to be unveiled! Can't wait!

Jim

My .02 anyway!

Chucker-Ducker,hope you're diet works for Ya,I just went for the "Big boy" from the start,

"The most awesome watercraft is soon to be unveiled! Can't wait!"

Too late Jim it's been at my house for a few years now
............Os

I've run some pretty haiiry water, back when I was running cats only for whitewatering. Every boat is susceptible to being pinned and stuck, just that an inflatable has the ability tobreak loose ad pop to srface once you're ejected/broke free (whereas an aluminum/glass/wood boat will be stuck on the bottom). I've personaly have been pinned and stuck too many times to remember. Between runing flaming geyser on the upper Green to parts of the Toutle and everything inbetween (and a few up north and south) I've been in some hairy situations.

The situation Sparkey is talking about is a meneuvering situation. You can be pinned for second on an inflatable in the bouulder garden on the Hoh, but a few pulls of one oar and you'l be ppulled by current (whereas I've seen a glass driftboat iin same place get sucked under and stuck because of non boouyancy). It's really dictated on the tube design and frame design how you'll faiir iin a situation like that. YES, an Outcast and any other boat can be flipped and tossed around depending on situation. Floating the Nooch on high water, came around a corner in my old Pac 9 (before they had the900) and my Dad was in his Outcast. He tok the slot to wide and got nailed up next to bank. Only thing keeping him from flipin over was thtahe was holding abranch for dear life. One tube was out of water next to bank and his othe tube was submerged by pressure of te high water ripping around the corner. I had ony one shot, came by him, slamed into his boat, an grabbed his anchor rope and foated aay from hiim. Went tooposite baank and pulled him free.... BARELY. I've hit class 4 hydraulics with my 16' cat on whitewater trips thtasucked my boatup to th oarlocks the ejected th boat literally airborne from th pressure. I ppersonally have never flipped my boat, but i kknow guys who have had their 16 AND 18 foot cats flipped runing clas 4's. Now clas 5's. I've only ran class 5's in a kayak, only clas 5 i've ever dne in my cat was on the Iiciicile, an t was a verticle drop of about 12' over aspilway. Almost toppled bot over, ut can be done with a bigger cat becauuse of teh length. It's really what predicament you're in dictates if you get out ok. I've had friends in kayaks thtahave spiled into clas 5's and neve came back up. THee i a cuople slots in te upper Nisqually tha have claaimed a few people I kknw.

Iis there a perfect all around boat?? Nope, they all have thir plusses and minuses. But th closest thing yo'll find is a whitewater grade cataraft. The biger and harrier the water, th biger cat you'l want. You hit big water on the big whitewater rivers, the more tube you have eating the run the more stability you'll have. Say it this way. The slot Ryan was talking aboout on the Hoh. In my 9' Steelheader ii was a kick in the pants. It ate it up fine, but had to keep active and as bonced a bit. Now, run i in my 16' Aire, and it loses it's flair. The upper Duc is alot more fun in my 16', gives more oof a chalenge. Hit water like upper stretches of mos rivers (Rogu, Gren, Nisqually, Icicle, Sky, etc) then you'll want a bigger boat. Most one man whitewateers wil run usually a minimum of a 14'. Some may g as low as 12'. Most guys I knew, and they're buddies in th NWRA, woul run 16+ lenght. Tha's on big wate mind you, say like th Colorado and th likes. Most waters here ii Washington/Oregon tha most of us fish won't need a huge vessel unless you want a multimaa boat to fih from. Ii run a 16' first because I laready had it and converted to fising from, an second it' perfect for running 3 wit ALOT of room to fish from. I'll be building a 12' pretty soon for my perfect 1-2 man fishing boat. Will have the ultimate frame built by theultimate frame builder Osprey.