http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/14604376.htm

this isnt going to help anything over there.....time to get them out

You can't run a war without stepping on a few toes, those civies might be better off helping us instead of standing around while the bad guys set the traps................


AND, AuntyM... I am at least as qualified to speak on military matters as you are to speak on Presidential matters.
(I knew you were going to say something to reafirm your assumptions, 2 can play.)

Almost forgot, you like these smilie thingies...

Stepping on toes he says.

You're phucked up in the head if you think this is about stepping on toes. I believe the USMC will take the appropriate action if the allegations are true.

If the allegations are true, and you're willing to pass it off as "stepping on toes" then you're one phucked-up individual.

I hope for the good name of the USMC that the allegations are proven false.

I hope so too Dan S. However, if it is another Calley/Mai lai look alike incident. They need to be charged and tried my the military not the media. One atrocity breeds another its seems.

I do not mean it is okay to just go postal on a bunch of bystanders everytime an American is hurt or killed, but if the locals are turning a blind eye on the insurgents activeties, then they must be at least a part of the problem.....no ?

"without stepping on a few toes"
That is truly a very assnine statement. To even equate killing a civilian with "stepping on a few toes" truly shows a lack of concern for the non-combatants killed. It makes the US Marines look no better than Saddam's henchman. If you didn't mean it the way it sounded you should preview and edit your comments before posting them. If this is just 'stepping on a few toes" in your mind, you should take a good long look in mirror. Consider professional help.

AuntyM,
Do you make comments like that to everybody on the street, or did you pick me for some reason ?


You do savvy that I am saying the men in combat need to be able to kill the people who are trying to kill them, I think having their hands tied by strict ROE is much worse on their minds than the act of fighting.........

Oregonian,

Yes, men in combat do crack, and Mai Lai type things do happen. However, being stressed out isn't recognized by law as an excuse for murder.

The bystanding Iraqis are under no obligation to assist the U.S. army. We are an occupation force in fact, if not by intent. Iraqis resent the occupation of their country by foreign invaders, even "victorious" ones, if you can call ours that. It may or may not be in their interest to assist our soldiers. It might help shorten the occupation, but it might also lead to their own deaths by insurgents for aiding the occupiers. There are a lot of no-win alternatives associated with this conflict, mostly created by the U.S.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

O - (and all you others who want to kill insurgents):
My bet is that if foreign forces invaded Oregon(or any other part of the USA) you would suddenly be OK with the idea of an insurgency.

You wouldn't shrink from the DUTY of defending your home would you?

Bring our troops home where they belong and forget about the R.O.E.s !!!!

I posted recently about the posibility of being labeled an insurgent in the future, but I didn't post very well, and it was a flop.


I don't feel qualified to decide whether our troops should be pulled out of the Sand Box or not, but I think anytime they are in harms way they should be allowed to act in their own best interest first, and the best interest of bystanders second.........

Bystanders in a war zone have got to at least be aware of their situation, and make whatever efforts to survive they see fit, some "bystanders" are undoubtably somewhat active on one side or the other in some way....


If there are "Iraqi civilians" watching the IEDs being placed, and then watching our boys enter the kill zone without even trying to give any signal or anything, then it is a fine line or maybe not even that, seperating them from enemy status in reality even if not under the ROE.

You don't understand how scared the average civilian in a guerrilla type war can be. They don't know who to trust either. If the wrong person sees someone speaking to US troops, it can be taken as giving aid and comfort to the occupiers of the homeland. Then they become a casualty.
Read some history of the Struggles in Ireland to understand how things are in areas and neighborhoods considered by the locals to be under occupation by the Brits. Most civilians in these areas where the guerrillas hide out are always afraid of anybody with a weapon. If there is an IED then it is being watched by the bombers. What would you do in their place? You say you have a wife and children. Would you be willing to put them at risk by talking to US troops?

everybody in the whole country is at risk......

If the local people can't get together and figure out what they are willing to stand for, then they are going to be slaves at best, we are there to give them the opportunity to stand up for themselves, if they won't do it, then we are probably going to have to shoot our way out of there, and it really doesn't matter who gets shot if that is the case..........

Chuck E,

Do you understand how scared the Founding Father's must have been while standing up for you and me, we are a Nation of people who have a history of standing up, it is hard for us to comprehend a nation of people who won't stand up....we seem to get ourselves into a lot of trouble trying to help others stand up, 'specially when as a group they don't have the guts/grit, but we error on the side of the people...I'm glad that we give people the benefit of the doubt, but the price sure seems high.

Oregonian, you try hard and you mean well but you have a tenuous grip on reality. Killing civilians is not "stepping on some toes" - it is murder. The Founding Fathers were incredible people and every day we owe them a huge debt of gratitude, but if you read your history, you will find that they were in the minority. Approximately 30% of the colonists supported the Revolution. The biggest group simply didn't care. And a slightly smaller group supported the British.

oregonian- you seem to have missed the point that there wasnt even an IED....it was just murder plain and simple of women and children.......how would you feel if it was your wife and children that were seen to have such little value on their lives that they could be killed for entertainment???????

you logic is dumbfounding- we are there to liberate people yet it doesnt matter if we murder them or not......it isnt the murderers fault? its the victims fault? its scary to think that there are people as shallow as the opinions you have put in this thread....you might as well start your own american taliban

A truly disgusting situation. The term collateral damage comes to mind. It was OK for the British to fry the inhabitants of Cologne and Hamburg with incendaries. And also OK for the U.S. to fry the citizens of Tokyo with incendaries. The fire storms in those cases killed more people than the Bomb at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
That doesn't make the murder of civilians acceptable, no matter the provocation. Non combatants are supposed to be just that. A child running at your squad with a grenade in it's hand is an old and abysmal tactic, but the tactic is used. It takes a pretty hardened grunt to do the necessary thing, and then he has to live with it.
I don't know all the details of the latest incident, and therefore will withhold judgement.
Especially considering the political stance of the media and The Honorable Murtha..

it aint about trying to swiftboat murtha......that stuff is getting real old. and the blame the messanger game, where the media is to blame for letting the truth out, is getting old too.....

Not everything we hear from the media is true, I hope we can all agree on that...

If/when noncombatants are used by the insurgents, they are then our enemy even if it doesn't look or sound nice, combat is no place for nice....let's hope for a swift end to combat. Forcing our boys to play nice with combatants who will not play nice is akin to tieing a rock to them and tossing them in the water........

I love the war veterans telling it like it is...

Too fricken John Wayne for my taste!