My Wife and I went down to fish the sky by Proctor creek and saw the no tresspassing signs as others have from this previous thread.
proctor no tresspass

My Question after reading CFM link to highwatermark and usage post since these people claim to own this property, (I have no idea if they really do and have no idea how to find out) Can they own the parking space next to HWY 2? Doesnt the state own property on the sides of a hiway? Also if you were to walk down proctor to the sky can they prosecute you? I looked in the Reg. book for proctor and it is not listed so I went to the general rules section and it says under seasons "Rivers, Streams and beaver ponds june 1- october 31". Since proctor is not listed I assume this is the only time you can fish it. So does that mean its also the only time you can wade it? Another thing directly under the general freshwater rules in the special rules section it says " An open listing does not authorize anglers to tresspass on private property which often includes the bed of a stream) Pg. 56 reg book. Doesnt this contradict what is said in the Highwatermark law?
Also Kid Sauk you said you new people in this community, have they ever succesfully prosecuted someone for tresspass? Its all pretty confusing to me. Thanx for any insight .
Mike
Highwatermark Law

Land ownership can easily (at least in this County) be obtained by a visit or call to the Assessor's Office....it's public information. Hope this helps.

ynotfish

Heres what I can tell you. I do not know the local area that you are talking about, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt! It sounds like Todd is the person that can give you more answers, since he has stated to this board that he is a licensed attorney at law in Washington State.

With that exception; this is what I can tell you. You need to check with the county court houses records and see what property belongs to the "county" in the area that you are talking about. Their records will show you what they own or have rights-away to, and it's not that hard to do, but it does take a little time to do it.

Yes, people often do own the property on both sides of a paved road side. It really depends on what the county road easements or right-away is. Every road is a little bit different, and so are the county requirements.

You are right about the rule on page #56; it is very ambiguously written. There is no question in my mind, that Todd is definitely the man to answer that question, especially since he had worked for the WDFW as one of there assistant attorneys generals.

The little stream issue, to me, sounds kind of an "iffy"issue. Again, I would yield to Todd's expertise on that issue. I feel pretty comfortable with "river and steam bank issues", but little steams may be a real problem for access use to some one else's property.

My suggestion to you is to make sure YOU know what you are doing "BEFORE" you do it. Trespass is nothing to mess with, especially if you do not do your "homework" first! I know what I have just told you probably isn't what you really wanted to hear; but maybe Todd will jump in and add something else that will help you even more. Most attorneys don't like to give away free legal advice…anyway not very often!

I hope I have helped you out

Good luck, and do your homework first!

Cowlitzfisherman

Ynot,

I'll give it a shot...but I'll start at the river and work my way back.

Except in very rare circumstances, the state owns the bed of naviagable rivers from the normal or mean high water mark on one side to the MHW on the other side. The state owns it in trust for the citizens. As a citizen, you can legally be on the river between those marks, which often includes the river bank (depending on river height, of course).

This rule only applies to navigable rivers. The test for being navigable or not generally depends on if the river is able to be used for commerce. It's a pretty easy test to pass...though some designations are pretty bizarre. I'm not certain, but I think that the Icicle River is deemed "non-navigable", and landowners own the bed to the thread of the river.

Roads are either owned by a government entity, or the entity owns a right of way to cross private property with the road. If they own a right of way, then technically the land the road is on is owned by the adjoining landowner(s), though they can't do anything to it. The right of way usually extends to the shoulders, too.

The Skykomish is definitely navigable, so the state owns the beds up to the MHW, and you can be within those lines regardless of who owns the adjoining uplands.

The catch, however, is that you can't get there by trespassing, and that's the rub in this case.

How can you access that public land? You can land a boat below the MHW and get out and fish between the lines. You can also walk down the river, staying between the lines, if you access the river without trespassing, say by walking all the way down to Proctor from Reiter.

If the property there at the parking area by Proctor is private, the owners can indeed prevent you from crossing their land. I'm assuming that's the case, unless someone with a bad sense of humor put up the signs.

Interesting point about walking down Proctor Creek to access the public property between the MHW marks. If Proctor Creek is navigable, then they can't exclude from its bed, which you could walk down until you hit the bed of the Skykomish.

I'm guessing, however, that Proctor Creek probably isn't navigable, due mainly to its extremely small size.

Assuming that Proctor Creek is not navigable and that the property along the road is private property, the only way to access the Skykomish River there would be to either come down in a boat or walk down from Reiter, or up from the nearest public or permission access below Proctor Creek.

As far as the rule on P. 56 goes, it's just there to remind you that an open river, for fishing, doesn't include access wherever it's most convenient. "Often" probably refers to the fact that the great majority of tiny creeks and streams are not navigable, e.g., what I'm guessing about Proctor.

Hope that helps.

Fish on...

Todd.

Well I was there once a few years ago and from what I understand is that those signs were put there to keep the kids out of there because they party there in the summer. And when the property owners put up their fence that they were fencing off railroad property. Can't do that.

If I was going to access that river bar I would park where everyone else parks, under the R/R tracks and go down the creek bed as it is just a small creek and not to deep.

I usually just walk past the signs. I think they are just scare tactics. I have walked down the creek a few years ago when that fence was up, and it is not to difficult.

Thanks, Todd. Yes, the land above and below proctor creek is owned by two cabin communities consisting of Green Water Meadows to the West and Big Bend to the East (above and below the mouth of Proctor Creek).

You can legally fish on the bank in that area during normal flows, however, accessing this area can only be done through the trail next to the parking area or the trail that leads out from the end of the Green Water Meadows community or above the creek through the Big Bend access point. Never heard of wading down the creek to access the area, but I'm sure that Proctor Creek does not fall into the navigable water rules as mentioned above therefore that would also be a "no go" according to the local landowners.

My good friend's uncles own two cabins in the local community so they have rights to the land around Proctor which is supposedly designated for use under some kind of charter or similar measure provided by the landholder agreement that they signed when purchasing the land which they built their cabins on. Most of the people in the surrounding cabins could really care less wheter there are fisherman in there, however, they do care about people parking on the private drives to access the river as well as people using the privately owned trails for river access as well. I used to fish up there years ago when there were no signs and nobody ever complained. Most of the concern for privacy surrounding Proctor Creek is due to people parking within the communities and teenagers using it for party grounds. Just like the WDFW access points have night closures because of the damn drunk teenyboppers and not necessarily the fishermen.

I parked my truck by the road in there at Green Water Meadows, right in front of my buddy's cabins, and got a nasty note stating how I would get towed and no river access blah, blah, blah. The only reason that I parked there is because their driveways were full of vehicles and I had to park out front. Not the only time that has happend in there either and I was an invited gues by a landowner so you can see what kind of problems can arise even when you are an invited guest in that place. I have also heard of vehicles being towed for parking along the private roads, and the sheriff being called for people using the trails, but I think most of the fisherman use the land without problems as long as they don't park on the private roads within the cabin communities.

The landowners in there are composed of summer home dwellers and full-time residents so somebody is always watching and seems like they get off on trying to regulate the tresspassers. Used to be mostly summer homes in there way back when and nobody was there to enforce it until now, when the majority of home/cabin owners are live there year round.

Seems like everybody is protecting their own little "piece of heaven" nowadays which sucks for gaining river access outside of public land. One thing I do understand as a riverfront landowner myself is that you just can't open the flood gates up to everybody because the old adage of "a few bad apples spoil the bunch" is true. Sad I know, but once you let in a few, you have to open it up for everybody or shut it down and keep it private. When it was "the good ol' days" and only a fisherman here and there used private lands, then most landowners didn't post signs or enforce it even if it was posted. Unfortunately, the population has exploded and so has the litter, trash, and most importantly liabilites associtated with allowing access to the general public. Litter sucks, but it isn't the end of the world. Some sue-happy tresspasser that essentially takes your land from you really sucks and that is why a lot of land is shut down to the public.

Hope this helps and remember that although the land is still being used frequently by fisherman and the general public, it is still private property which falls under the rules of the landowners. I will try to find out specifics regarding past citations issued for tresspassers using the trails and the creek for access. Take care and good fishing in the mean time.

Kid Sauk

Thanks, that was a very good and informative post. It sounds like you know the local area very well.

Cowlitzfisherman

Thanks for the responses fellas, I now have a more clear Idea of the specifics. It is not that I am even that concerned about fishing there its just a shame that we are losing fishing spots because of aholes trashing property. I can certainly understand the landowners position.
However after going over the hiwatermark page I think the quote below would give legal access down proctor creek. Whether a sherriff or a judge would agree is another matter. If we do go fish there again I will bring along the hiwatermark document and see if it flies and update you.
Mike

I once got a jump from an old farmer who had donated land to the WDFW for a boat launch. He said he loved fishing season because when the river was closed he would find bottles, cans and even needles in the parking area. If fisherman keep it clean maybe they'll look forward to fishing season.

Kid hit the nail on the head with this one. A couple years ago i ran into 3 or 4 guys building the fence that eventually got ripped out. They told me GreenWater Meadows owns the property between the high water mark and HW 2, and to access the river you had to walk upriver from the bridge or down from Reiter.
THis summer a buddy and I got an earful from a lady that definetly had a chip on her shoulder. She said the same thing Kid said about kids partying and leaving trash and even a guy that pulled a gun when someone confronted him.

Fisherman are not their main problem up there, we have used that area long before they bought there "little piece of heaven"
I wish the property owners would lose the attitude and grant access or sell permits or whatever they have to do to resolve the issue.

But with all the pressure on weekends from the Seattle boys and such i cant really blame them...

Good thing its a big river

Ynot,

The quote you posted is accurate...but it talks about the water itself, not the land under it.

If you could manage to float down Proctor Creek, you would be legal.

It's the same scenario as the Icicle River...it's perfectly legal to float, but if you step onto the shore, or even drop an anchor, technically you are trespassing. I have seen the Sheriff come out there and get on people for dropping anchor in some of the good slots.

Thanks for the info, Justin. Did you get out on Sunday? Too busy, I couldn't make it. How about a little squid fishing in the next couple of weeks?

Fish on...

Todd.

Right on, Todd. I wasn't going to fish with all the family stuff going on, but by afternoon I just couldn't take it and I ended up getting out for a quickie float on Sunday Got one swinter and lost another unseen fish. I only fished from 2 til dark with a packed boat including me and 3 buddies. Never saw another boat on the lower end, but got weird looks from the guys taking out when I dumped in.

I have the generator and a couple BIG lights so I'm down with the Calamari collecting Don't want to use those inky damn things for bait ya know