Other then the standard proclaimed "fight" that a wild fish may give to a fishermen, why not sacrifice that "fight" by replaying "wild fish" with hatchery fish replacement, which can be controlled to some degree by man. Can not a better "fighting fish" be breed within our hatcheries if that is what fishermen really want?

Does a "few seconds more" of this proclaimed "fish fighting" mean that much more to the average fishermen?

What are the pros, and what are the cons?


Cowlitzfisherman

My passion is steelhead fishing, hatchery or wild. However, I will NEVER be in favor of wild fish dying to replentish hatchery stocks. It seems to me every system at one time or another has surplus hatchery fish, to restock hatchery runs, I say hatch every egg. If this is done EVERY time the numbers of hatchery fish will still be adequate even during years of poor returns (like this one).

Well, CF, here's are real "dollars and sense" answer, particularly for those waste in government freaks - it costs an average of $150 per returning fish (statistics compiled by the USFWS on the Columbia River) to raise them in a hatchery. Ma Nature does it for free. So every one of those fish you bonked and threw in the freezer cost 4 times more than your fishing license, or 5 times more than your vehicle license after I-man. There is your "waste in government"

Me? I don't complain about waste in government and am glad to bonk the hatchery fish. But mostly I fish because I like to fish and I like to catch something, and I'm more than willing to go to the horrendous effort of sorting through all those wild fish to obtain a hatchery fish or two - I mean, I know it's a real sacrifice but someone's got to do it

CFM,

Hypothetically, fish culturists could breed a hatchery steelhead that fights better than a native one (assuming that the reverse is actually true). However, there is quite a ways to go. At the present time, hatchery fish don't even bite as well as wild steelhead. So first, I think it will be necessary to breed hatchery steelhead to be as good, or better, biters than wild steelhead. If fish culturists can first fix that little problem, then I think breeding other attributes, like more fight when hooked, are a good idea. Although, I think maybe a higher priority should be breeding the buggers to have a higher survival rate. Presently, wild steelhead smolts survive to returning adult at least at twice the rate, and sometimes a lot more, than their hatchery counterparts. So a lot of fixes might be possible, but the most fundamental are yet to be attained.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

P.S.: Any fish showing up in the honey hole this year?

About three years ago, I believe that each sport caught fish brought back into our states economy about $200 dollars or better. I am sure by now, that the figure has increase even more. That would mean that for every fish that was caught, the state would benefit roughly $50 dollars more then it had spent to raise a fish.

I wonder how much money is being spent now to protect each wild retuned fish. I'll bet you that the number is three times as much as the cost of raising a hatchery fish is, if not more.

Have you ever seen any studies that show what the value of a "wild" fish brings back to our states economy compared to that of a hatchery raised fish?

It would be interesting to compare what a wild fish brings to our economy compared to the value that a hatchery fish brings, and then maybe one side or the other side can convince our state government where it may best spend our tax dollars at.

Just a thought!


Cowlitzfisherman

Better yet CF, it would be interesting to see that data from Washington State vs. those areas that are desination fisheries for wild steelhead ...

I like my fish to have all their fins ...
I like my fish to have straight fins ...
I like my fish to return all winter long instead of just a few weeks ...
I like to catch my fish from top to bottom in a river instead of just a few holes ...
I like my fish to run from 2 pounds to 30 pounds instead of 3-15 ...
I like my to watch my fish spawn in a flat while we eat lunch nearby ...
I like to watch my fish jump the Salmon Cascades on the Upper 'Duc ...
I like my fish to have shoulders and not be built like a wimp ...
I like my fish to bite better 90% pf the time, especially without the use of bait ...
I like my fish to feed the eagles sitting in the trees outside my window after they spawn ...

More??

Hatchery Fish = Blow Up Doll

Wild Fish = Good looking woman you had to work for.

Both give the same result, but is it as satisfying

Very nicely put Bob..... So nicely worded and wholesome good I think it could be made into a children's book?!

I agree with every line.
-DB

It appears to me that those of you posting on this topic are of the opinion that hatchery fish are genetically programed to not bite. My question is what if its more of a matter of how they are raised and that hatchery fish don't bite as well because they didn't have to compete for food in a river when they were young and therfore lack the instincts of a wild fish. All so as far as survival rates go perhaps they are low because the young hatchery fish are not forced to flee from predators at a young age in fact I have witnessed fish in a hatchery flocking to a person that walks by there holding pond. I wonder if the problems we are having with hatchery fish are less about there genetic make up and more about the way they are raised. Perhaps if we raise hatchery fish in a more natural environment we will get hatchery fish that act more like wild fish. Just some thing to think about.

thank you bob

standing in a pile of human waste with 200 jerkoffs trying to catch a hatchery fish is not fishing in my world.

If hatchery fish don't want to bite, as some of you claim to be the case, as a sport fisher, shouldn't that in itself be more of a challenge for you to try to catch them instead of those easy biter wild fish? If wild fish bite so well, what is the challenge in trying to catch them if they are such "suckers" when it comes to taking your offerings?

If, it is really the "sport" that one is seeking, why not spend your efforts trying to convince that "non bitter" to take your bait?

I like to fish for hatchery fish because they are hard to catch
I like to eat hatchery fish because they taste good
I like to see lots of hatchery fish returning to our hatcheries because they are fun to catch
I like to watch hatchery fish trying to jump the "barrier dam"
I like to clean hatchery fish because they don't have all those fins to deal with
I like to catch lots of fish instead of just a few big ones that have old heavy shoulders
I like to watch hatchery fish being bonked and bonked
I like using bait to catch fish, especially hatchery fish
I like to fill our rivers with tons of nutrients from all the dead no biting hatchery fish
I love to eat my lunch and watch eagles eat tons of dead hatchery fish

JK... Bob


Cowlitzfisherman

The Cowlitz and all of it's tributaries should continue to be run as "Fish Factories" I love the fact that when the fish are in, I canrun down to Blue Creek and be back home by 8 AM with my limit. Same thing goes for silvers at Barrier Dam. If anything, they should increase hatchery production on the Cowlitz so that it'll be even easier to harvest hatchery fish. Now that I've talked about hatchery fish fish on the Cowlitz....... When I'm all done fighting the crowds on the Cowlitz, and when my freezer is full of hatchery fish, I head for the smaller, lees known rivers, where I fish for wild fish. When I'm fishing for enjoyment I target wild fish. Yeah, they do bite more aggressively, they fight much better, and they tend to get bigger than hatchery fish do. All in all they are just a far superior fish to hattchery fish. I'd never suggest increasing hatchery production on rivers that already had strong wild runs established.

You answered your own question, CF, the studies show that every fish CAUGHT returns $200 to the state. That's $200 if it's a wild fish every time it is caught and released to be caught again. I returned $600 to the state on the same fish in one day before Conversely, that's $50 ONCE if it is a hatchery fish that gets bonked - return to the state minus the cost to produce it. And before you start to argue about what catch is, realize that the sport catch is developed from data collected by samplers, who collect information on fish caught, fish retained, and fish released. This is the data used to characterize the catch and predict harvest, not punch card data, which only characterizes the kill and then not very well as it is well known that this data is innacurate as people cheat - punch cards are just an enforcement tool to try a catch some of the cheaters.

Besides that, wildlife viewing produced a return of $980 million, fishing $854 million, and hunting $350 million to the state in 2001 (Adding It Up, WDFW, December 2002). How much of that wildlife viewing money was spent observing hatchery fish in terminal areas compared to viewing salmon in the wild do you think?

And WDFW spends most of it's annual budget on hatcheries, several times what is spent on habitat - see WDFW's annual report. Ironically, hatchery fish would not survive without habitat - they after all have to spend the majority of their lives in the wild. Clean water, productive rivers and estuaries, and avoidance of fish killing activities like pile driving and dredging during juvenile outmigration are critical to the survival of all fish, wild and hatchery.

Not that I am against hatcheries, mind you, they are essential to ensure continued fishing - even if all wild fish are released all the time the do suffer mortality, and so would not even be able to sustain an all-release fishery. And I bonk and eat plenty of hatchery fish too, although I also release them, especially steelhead unless they are in perfect condition. I have such a surplus of processed fish by the end of salmon season most years that I don't need to keep any - hell, I still have a freezer full of vacpacked spring chinook and sockeye that I am working on - why would I want to eat a worn-out steelhead. Besides, hatchery fish bite over and over too, just not as well as wild fish. Again, for steelhead, catching them is what it is all about for me, and I would imagine for most everyone else.

Breeding a more agressive fish in a domestic environment by means of some kind of genetic manipulation is ludicrous - any fish with agressive tendencies are long gone in a concrete rearing pond - they can't handle the stress and crowding. But the idea of natural conditions for rearing fish has merit, and a study of a natural rearing system is being conducted at the Dungeness hatchery - basically fry are put into a re-created and fenced off stream environment with natural habitat and predators, fed underwater via tubes occasionally but also forced to forage for natural feed, and allowed to grow much as they do in the wild, competing for space and food. It will be interesting to see how the results of returns of these fish to the fishery compare to conventionally reared fish.

.........So metaphorically speaking:

Releasing wild steelhead = $$$ saved

Using a blow-up doll = $$$ saved

Spawnout

Sorry, but no studies that I have ever seen relates to your figure of; "That's $200 if it's a wild fish every time it is caught and released to be caught again"

That may sound real good, but I do not think that this figure can stand the "straight face test".

If such a study actually showed that to be true, I could accept your figures! The studies that I had seen were purely for harvested fish.

You say; "Besides that, wildlife viewing produced a return of $980 million, fishing $854 million, and hunting $350 million to the state in 2001 (Adding It Up, WDFW, December 2002). How much of that wildlife viewing money was spent observing hatchery fish in terminal areas compared to viewing salmon in the wild do you think?"

Well I send that same question back to you! How much of that money can you show to us was actually related to viewing "wild" steelhead? Like you have said, I think you too have also answered yor own question!

Personally, I do not think that WDFW should have to spend a single penny on "habitat". Habitat is part of our states total economy, and it should not be the burden of WDFW to fund improvements to a states natural resources! Even if you do not fish or hunt, the people of Washington State all use and enjoy the benefits of abundant habitat.

Spawnout, there is no question in any persons mind that hatcheries will be a huge player in the years to come. It doesn't really matter if you like fishing for hatchery fish or not! The simple fact remains that wild fish are not going to fill the needs of the many! It's true that wild fish will fill the needs of some, but most people like to eat what they catch. You and I can say that our freezers are full, but what about Joe Blow, who spends more money fishing then you or I? He will most likely never see a full freezer, and for good reason!

Remember, and it's true, 10% of the fishermen usually catch and harvest about 90% of the available fish. So it's pretty darn easy for you and me to sit here and tell the mass majority of those other 90% fishermen that we have tons more fish then we can possibly eat! Everybody needs to have a reality check from time to time, and yes, that includes me.

Yes, there are lots of ways to rear fish, and that can include all the options that you have related to. But, and it's a big but, wild fish are not going to override the need of humans. Even if we can turn around all the years, humans needs will far out way that of any fish; if you think that I am wrong, go for it!

Most people have never seen my organization symbol. It's been on our cards for over 6 years now; it shows a scale that states "A balance between Man and Fish". Isn"t that what we are all fighting so damn hard for anyway?


Cowlitzfisherman

Steelnerves-Darin A.B.

I really don't understand what your logic was when you stated; "I hear your a brite guy from some of our readers here. But I question your ethics"

What is this BS about my ethics? How can YOU possibly question "my" ethics! Under what grounds can you build such a foundation? Or, are you just testing the water? What makes you even think that your morals are any better then mind are? Do you wish to compare your history of moral judgment conduct to my own?

What have you done in your short time on this earth to improve your sport fishing, if anything?

Am I a little concerned, and pi$$ed off with your innuendo's....you bet I am!

What if anything, have you personally done to make sure that the next generation of fishermen will be able to continue to have a opportunity to fish...be it on the Cowlitz or any other river system?

I am all ears, let's see if you can walk your own talk! It takes a whole lot more then just one or two letters to show how much a person cares about their fishery!

Cowlitzfisherman

Cowlitzfisherman:

Maybe it is the whack em and stack em attitude that you have expressed over and over here.

Developing a run of biting hatchery fish is really pretty simple.

The key is to practice catch and release of all hatchery fish that are biters and only bonk the non-biters (go flossers)!

The reason that hatchery fish don't bite is two fold. The first of course is that we exert a high selective pressure against the best biters (we kill them all before they spawn). The second is that the longer the fish is in the river the more likely it is that it will be caught and killed. Therefore the most successful spawners (those that get to the hatchery) are those that arrive at the river in an advance state of sexually maturity (not likely to bite) and zoom up the river.

The more we rely on locally adapted brood stocks the more we will breed non-biting steelhead.

Tight lines
Smalma

cfm,
In response to your original point, this state has no interest in spending more $ on hatcheries. Right or wrong there seems to be a few more on their hit list every year, and they will continue to be an easy target to help save $ as long as license fees go into the general fund. Unfortunately, the state of wa has no obligation to put our license fees back into the resource. So they do as little as they can get away with. For this reason I think its a little naive to think that we can add some great new hatcheries and then do studies to develop some superfish. The only reasonable alternative seems to be to take the superfish that you already have (natives) and start more native broodstock programs on several different rivers (no mixing of strains). The catch: Your going to have do it on your own and once you start getting stronger returns the quinalts will want to net them 6 days a week like on the chehalis system.

By the way I think the guys at blue creek have a set up for those non biters. 12 foot rod 10' leader (or longer) with a double hook set up and a corky in the middle. I think its called flossing.

From reading this board it seems that most are against the killing of native fish, or I mean native steelhead. The question originally posted was about hatchery vs native fish, now it has turned into hatchery vs native steelhead.

I question how people get their freezers so full that they have more fish then they could possibly eat without killing native fish.

Why is it OK to kill native salmon and not Ok to kill native steelhead? I don't understand.

Is it OK to kill native fish in the saltwater, but not the freshwater? Is it OK to kill native fish as long as it is not done in your home state?

Just a little confused.

PS: I also have a freezer full, I release many fish during the year, both native and hatchery. My rule of thumb is, if I see blood I take it home.

I guess that leads to another question; I see on this board all the time say that they have not killed a nate in -- years. I would think that they have killed more than they know, just have not gotten the enjoyment of eating them.