KurtF...Washington Trout is not advocating hatchery reform but hatchery elimination. They have an agenda (and I don't think it is to save fish) and they have joined forces with some rather extreme environmental groups to move their agenda forward. I honestly believe that they either want to stop fishing all together or create boutique fishing for a special minority. I'm really not convinced that they care much about fishing or even the fish for that matter.

eddie: Now that I know who you are I can appreciate your diplomatic slant alot more than I otherwise would have. Being reasonable is the best bet. I think we are starting to make some changes to mend the evil ways of our recent past. I believe some of the things we are doing are working quite well. The WT lawsuit is an extreme measure by an extreme group with an extreme agenda. We should all dig deeper into their motives and try to remove some of the layers of deception so we can make a reasonable decision about the issue. A good salesman can make a case for just about anything.

As far as WT NOT being like PETA...don't kid yourselves.

I would like to see studies done on preditation. Sounds like they are using this as a political tool to close hatcheries.

I echo elkrun and Double Haul's comments...

I know many many flyfishermen that DO NOT support Washington Trout and will never support Washington Trout...

I also know some gear fishermen who, infact, support Washington Trout.

Naive comments such as escapee's do nothing but create a schism within the user group (US) and reduce the chances for our salmonids to recover!

Jimmey-
Thanks for the science!...and thank you for pointing out that comparing Puget Sound to the Sacramento is pretty much comparing apples and oranges.

BTW-
Washington Trout will have to realize they are shooting themselves in the foot!...They are losing supporters and potential supporters everyday. And one of these days...they will have run out of funds...a terrible demise to a group that had so much potential

I willing to put some time and efforts into working against Washington Trouts agenda. What can we and how can we do it. I am looking for someone(s) input so we can have an focused force in the defense of our hatcheries.

I am amazed at how many "sportsmen" immedaitly want to shoot the messenger. I DO NOT accept what Whashington Trout says as the gospel, I, like Bob, think we better find out if its true or not, and if it prooves to be valid then we bettet be ready to make some scrafices.

First Washington Trout needs to proove their contention. RAMONE please tell us who did this study, what were their tecniques, how big was the sample size, how many rivers, how many seasons, was this study reviewed by a peer group. If you have the facts go ahead and convince us. If you convince me I will back you all the way.

I for one am more than willing to forgo a part of my favorite pastime IF I am convinced I need to. I would feel damn shabby if I was so selfish that I was willing to let Puget Sound chinook go extinct forever, simply because I wanted to amuse myself. Conversly, there's no way we should make such a sacrafice unless there is solid science that tells us we need to.

I do not beleive W.T. has any hidden adgenda. And I am certain they have mightly little in common with PETA. Let's not defame them just becasue they bring us news we dont want to hear. But lets make them show us the proof.

"Yes, other species eat some of them, that's part of the natural selction process that I feel is often left out of our management objectives ... but they've always been there and they're supposed to feed on them per Ma Nature."
Bob,
I understand that nothing can be done about the "natural selection process", I guess I just posted a little out of frustration. Seems to me that WT is "barking up the wrong tree" wouldnt other factors such as damns, net by-catch or over commercial fishing be a more crucial factor in the demise of these fish?

"BTW-
Washington Trout will have to realize they are shooting themselves in the foot!...They are losing supporters and potential supporters everyday. And one of these days...they will have run out of funds...a terrible demise to a group that had so much potential"

Sparkey,
I would hope for their sake (WT'S) that they would see it that way too.

RL

If Washington Trout wanted to go after one of the biggest killers of wild salmon and steelhead in the State of Washington they would sue the tribes and the gillnetters....Naturally occuring predation kills massive amounts of salmon and steelhead on their life's journey but nets do a much more deadly job of killing endangered species than hatcheries. The nets seem to be a far more verifiable target for WT...In fairness, I have heard it said that if you are duck hunting you don't aim at all the ducks..you pick one....For WT that duck is all hatcheries.

If they close the hatcheries before they get rid of the nets, MARK MY WORDS! say bye to whats left of the fish! Everybody better start bassfishing. Washington trout is worse than peta, they are succeeding in there stupid lawsuits. Predation happens its part of nature.

I'm not slamming fly guys, I fly fish too for steelhead sometimes, I'm slamming WT. Every time I hear about that group I don't like what I hear. I totally agree that as sporsmen, we have a problem with infighting. If we could get together and agree with each other and focus our efforts we would be much more effective. I think WT works against that idea and acts like it wants to be seperated from the rest of us.

Just an observation: Some fly fishers and wild fish advocates seem to be really holier-than-thou as if enlightened from on high.
They also seem to want what I will call "boutique" fishing opportunities. They seem to want private rivers with no "crackers" or fishermen that aren't like them. They would like a stream or river with only wild fish in it and signs on the banks that read: Fishing by special permission only....Maybe Washington Trout will issue credit card like passes to be worn around your neck to identify you as one of the "chosen few".....

Here we go again. This WT group needs a saltwater enema to help flush their heads out of their behinds. The last lawsuit resulted in WDFW settling out of court, just like I predicted in an old post. This group knows that WDFW will settle out of court because it is cheaper and the WDFW is cash strapped. Ramon is right in wanting hatchery reform, but what he is refusing to admit is he also wants hatcheries SHUT DOWN. WT will not be happy until then. Then they will target catch and keep fishing. When that is done, they will have to go after Orcas, seals, birds, and all the other fish eating animals. Why do we even bother listening to this group? If we all hate them so bad it is time to SUE them. I am sure they are doing something that can be sued for. If each of us filed a suit we could bankrupt them in a matter of weeks. First suit could be for buying a fishing license, that supports hatcheries, which are killing native chinooks. These people are the same ones who voted for trapping bans, higher taxes, and are now holding no war signs. They need to get a life. Or better yet, if they would aim higher then their foot, all the problems would go away.

Grandpa
You have hit a very large nail square on the head, although its not limited to flyfisherman.
I'm just hoping that they wont try to shut the hatcheries down with a court order while they drag the process out.
On the other hand I don't really think we have too much to worry about common sense should show their claim to be based on inaccurate data. hasn't there already been precedent that regional data is just that? Regional?
I guess it seems to me like their claim is pretty outrageous, and just a tool to get the courts to bow to their agenda, after all other groups have gotten extremely good at doing just that.....

I hope Wa Trout knows that they will be responsible for killing more fish than they will save if they win this lawsuit. I have talked to numerous people that said they will kill every fish they catch now. This whole thing is going to turn everyone into outlaws. And for all you that disagree don't jump all over me for typing this.

From my admittedly unscientific poll and general observatiosn on human nature, I conclude that a sizable number of fisherman really do not care a bit about anything other than their gratification, while a roughly equal number are concerned more about the fish and the future.

Calm, concerned anglers like Bob Ball say - let's take a look at the facts and lets do what's necessary. That was not a quote, rather my summation of what I think he was saying. Bob feel free to let us know if I have misrepresnted your views. I especially respect someone like Bob who's livlihood may depend on the outcome, saying let's do what we need to. It take guts to put you principles above your income.

Other's, who shall go unnamed out of desire not to make this a personality clash, say I don't beleive W.T. Or worse yet even if W.T. is right I don't care.

What we need are facts! Not anyone's personal observatiosn, or worse yet their idea of "common sense"

W. T. needs to PROVE thier alegations. I challenge any W.T. supporter to give us solid facts. Who did the study, how was it done, what is the accuracy of samples, was it reviewed by outside sicientists i.e. peer veview?
WASHINGOT TROUT show us the beef. If you have solid, irrefutable evidence I am on your side. If not, I am against you. It's that simple.

Well, THERE'S some clear-headed thinking.

Mad at WT? Take it out on the fish! Man, that's brilliant.

Sounds like you need to tell numerous people to pull their head out.

So I wonder when the fish and game is going to start spraying steelhead and silver smolts on there front lawns for fertilizer. Has anyone heard if the injunction passed? Save a Chinook kill a silver ? ooooooh! now that sounds really inteligent. I dont see how Washington courts are letting them do this with California facts, the water is warmer and the fish are going to have different feeding habits. If your supporting wt trout STOP! Pretty soon well just be allowed to go bird watching, oh wait! maybe someone will sue because the glare off your camera lens disturbs the yellow crested brush thresher.
Next lets kill all the cougars because they eat some deer before they can spawn, Lets kill the all the cats because they eat the mice, lets kill the bats because they eat the poor little bugs, lets kill the goats because they eat washington plants (Oh wait we do that!), lets kill the seals because they eat the salmon (I agree with that one),lets kill bobcats because they eat the rabbits.

Oh no surecatch we definetly would not want anyone to use there own observations or god forbid anyone use common sense lets just all be led blindly by the nose like them anti war punks in seatle right now. People seem to have alot more in common with sheep than we realize.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by grandpa:
[QB] Just an observation: Some fly fishers and wild fish advocates seem to be really holier-than-thou as if enlightened from on high.

Grandpa - the same could be said true for any group. I have met some gear fishermen who think their sh*& dont stink as well. This is still stereotyping and does nothing to help this problem. Honestly, how can the type of rod I choose to use determine the kind of person I am??? I dont let a the treble hook jerking, chum kicking, redneck I meet down on the river cast a bad light on all gear fishermen. Some of the best fishermen I know prefer gear, others like flyfishing, some do both. Its as simple as that, a preference, not a personality trait. These divisions in our user group have caused us to get screwed repeatedly by other consumers of the fishery. It needs to stop.

I would encourage everybody to right letters to washington trout and forward to wdfw.

This is a letter I wrote to washington trout regarding there lawsuit. I also sent it to P.S.A and wdfw maybe this to will change your mind about supporting them.

I found this action very disturbing. Though I disagree with how the state runs its hatcheries. Shutting down hatcheries right now would most likely mean the end of salmon. Would you not say we have more serious problems to take care of first? What about the millions of salmon smolts that are killed due to the commercial seining of herring, not only are they taking the food source away but why don’t you take a ride on one of those boats undercover. I found out about this years ago at point defiance there was literally five gallon buckets full of dead salmon smolts that were caught because they run along with the herring. How about the thousands of wild salmon that are pitch forked and snagged by the local residence out of the smaller rivers and creeks throughout our state. I don’t believe the big rivers were where the majority of are salmon stocks, we have thousands more smaller ones that were once packed with Salmon but now are barren just like are big rivers would be without hatcheries. Talk to an old timer that use to fish back in the days, I do. Hatcheries were not put in effect before the decline of salmon they were put in effect after the decline of salmon. So how can they be the cause? The state spends its resources seemingly more on busting the little guys for things like barbed hooks and not punching there cards after catching the fish. While the big time offenders are having a heyday. Why is this? Are they having to
spend too much money fighting lawsuits? What about the Indians raking herring roe off the eel grass beds to sell to Japan. Once I could run my boat with my eyes closed, stop, look down and see herring! Not anymore. How about people netting salmon just for the eggs? I have witnessed this every year at the Skokomish. they get something like eight dollars a pound for the eggs but almost nothing for the meat so they throw the carcasses away, not even in the river where they might do some good. I could go on and on with more examples of whats killing our salmon but its two something in the morning and I’ve got to go to work in four hours. Your lawsuit appears to be well written and has some factual information, but it just doesn’t make any sense to someone like myself who has fished all over this state and seen so much more destroying the tyee than hatcheries.

"boutique" fishing opportunities....

OK we have all aired our thoughts and prejudices...Hopefully Washington Trout will be seen for the opportunists they appear to be.They will settle out of court again and get their legal fees paid for by the state (you and me)...Then they will plan the next suit if they don't already have one on the drawing board. I think what we need is to come together for some win-win conclusions to our problems. Most all of us on here want to enjoy fishing in our own way with our friends and family. Groups like WT don't give a rip about fishermen and I suspect really don't give a damn for fish ..it is another "cause"...another protest....And I for one am realllllly sick of protestors.