Aunty M I wasn't rude to anyone Only stating what i believe to be the truth. Not something I choose to believe that something that i have conviction about. A conviction is somehting you believe is true not because you want to but because you know that it;s true. it's a matter of conviction NOT preference. if you or anyone else is offended by that I cannot help it.

Being a Republican doesn't make a person against salmon survival anymore than being a liberal democrat makes you mentally ill.

I believe in my history here i have berated both dems and reps and i don't think i made this an issue of dem vs rep.

I said Right wing!! not republican and yes there is a difference. the right wing places the utmost importance on the economy and allowing companies to do whatever they want and that is what has always and what will continue to hurt salmon.
Now having said that the democrats have historically done nothing to stop that..
Hmmm who was it that appointed Berne Shanks to the wdfw commission??? and who was it that got rid of him????

I have no allegiences to any political party. it's my opinion that the rntire political system in AMerica is destroyed. There is no one representing the interests of Americnas they are all out furthering their own careers and if it doesn't change America will fall. Corrupt leaders always cause the demise of their country..
So you see i am not bashing republicans I am Bashing Bush because he stands adimantly against everything I hold dear as an angler and an American.

Hey Rob,

That's telling those capitalists pigs-- Workers of the world unite!!

You go guy!


"If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart--If you're still a liberal at 40 you have no brain."

And the pompus ass speaks, down with the capitalist system socialists unite. I suppose bush is also signle handedly responsible for those hatcheries you hate so much too rob . I am a conservitive republican (with no heart as stated above) and I am all about restoring our salmon and steelhead runs. and while this may be a step back, in goverment you can never take a step forward with out taking 2 steps backwards.

WRO tell you what..
I'll make some statements about generally held right wing political beliefs. Not saying they are your beliefs just that they are the typical conservative republican views and thoes held bu the president.

If you think we should open up our forests to more logging, Then you think timber industry jobs are more important than salmon. Thats something you sure have a right to believe but it is bad for salmon in a number of ways and works against your stated desire to restore fish runs

If you think we should open up more mining the same rule applies.

If you think that we should allow people to develop any land they own in any way they desire then the same rule applies.

If you want government agencies andprivate enterprise to be able to sidestep laws and go ahead and freely degrade th water quality in the northwest, then the same rules apply.

I could go on and on here..

fact is our wild runs of fish throughout the northwest ate in a critically depressed state. Any increased harm increases the likelyhood of the continued extinction of our salmon runs.

We have been and are still being very poor stewards of our resources. We need to change that. Bush's current and desired policies make us worse off than we already are. if you favor his policies you favor policies that are bad for salmon..
You cannot favor policies that are bad for salmon and want them to be restored..

Thats like ordering food at a restruant that you don't like then complaining to the waitress...

Rob, you speak with passion and the preceding statements you make concerning our choices of fish or industry are right on the mark.... BUT......
You belong to a group of people that lack credibility based simply on the fact of "contradiction" and "elitism"..... What do you drive? What do you power your house with? What industry do you make a living at?
These are all things that so many "tree huggers" do not realize about themselves that make others see nothing but hypocrisy in their statements and beliefs.
I used to Log, but we know where that industry went. Yet we want wooden furniture and homes.... I used to be sickened by the clear cutting that went on and I was a part of.... It was wrong... But I never abdicated a ban on logging... Just common sense. Selective forestry practices are the way.
Same with the dams.... I want to save salmon, but I am not willing or able to pay $400.00 /month for my electricity... So where is the common sense in tearing down dams?
Stop commercial fishing first (tribal included). Then see where things are... Then if that does not work, then MAYBE the dams need to be looked at. If the group that I am lumping you into would go at it like that, then folks like me would be more likely to take up your cause and fight with you.
You live in a tent with no eletricity or running water, walk everywhere you go, eat only what you need to survive, etc., then you have full Carta Blanche in my book to make demands on the rest of society you view as ruining our world..... You choose to drive to your EarthFirst rallies in your Beamer or Hummer, then you will never have my ear when asking me to give up what I have been accustomed to my entire life..... Hope that helps you understand a little?

Regards...

MC

Number one we are ALL hypocrites to one degree or another. It’s part of the human condition. But. . . I see no problem in living in a wood house while calling for responsible logging practices, nor in driving a car while supporting better EPA mileage requirements. Nor in using electricity and supporting low energy appliances.

We can live in a modern world and still ask to try to do as little harm as possible. If that being a hypocrite than I am one.

As far as removing the Snake River dams remember they were and are primarily for navigation. Unlike the Columbia River dams, that no one wants to remove they are NOT major electricity producers. We could make up for that small loss in many ways that would not dramatically increase our electric bills.

I think almost all things are on a continuum not Black and White. The right is always calling for common sense and a middle ground. I think things like selective logging; better energy consumption and habitat protection fall into that middle ground category. If that is elitism, color me elite.

Master caster your post makes good sence BUT

i am not proposing a ban on logging
I am not proposing removing any dams

What i am saying is that the dams should becomplying with the federal clean water act.
they currently are not and Bush thinks thats ok..
He is proposing to make it so the dams never have to comply with any enviromental standards I think that is wrong i think it's bad in fact i think it's evil. It's certainly bad for salmon and it's bad for our wallets. We have spent millions upon millions to try to restore salmon runs in the Columbia system now Bush is coming along and basically pisssing on all thoes efforts. To the benefit of no one!!

First let me state Rob and Surecatch that I am quite a consvervationist myself, but I truly love to play the devil's advocate. I agree with everything Surecatch said, but how many environmental groups speak that way? PETA does not want people to eat animals "but kill them humanely".... They want ALL killing/eating of animals to stop. This is true of most "environmental" groups. My fear is not of losing the Snake River Dams as they are mainly for transportation. But one must ask, how many more diesel-chugging-polluting 18 wheelers will crowd our highways to make up for the lost barge transport? I also am fully convinced that there are groups out there that will have their fire fueled if the Snake dams are removed and will then start working on others (including the Columbia Dams). Like I said before, if everything else is tried and fails, then do what you must. But allowing the fish to continue to be taken with non-selective means such as gillnetting while screaming for the dams to be torn down is so clearly assinine. That is not the "common sense" approach that you speak of Surecatch..... That is equal to say making it illegal to own a wooden house, but still allowing clearcutting for firewood.......

MC

MC: I'm glad to hear you too are a conservationist. But wonder how you could possibly equate PETA with an environmental group. That is a bit like calling the Nazis a conservative organization.

Somehow the polluters have made the word environmentalist into something dirty and shameful when in fact mainstream environmental groups like Trout Unlimited and The nature Conservancy are simply trying to protect our environment in responsible ways.

Back to the Snake River dams. We have in fact tried every other reasonable alternative. The current plan has been ruled inadequate and illegal by the courts. The Salmon River wild runs are still in decline. There were three sockeye that made it back this year. I would say we are about out of options to save the Salmon River runs.

If we remove the dams we can use largely existing railroad track for transporting the wheat that is now barged. Yes they too puke diesel, but I do not believe nearly as much on a per ton hauled basis.

Lastly the age old argument of - if this then than - simply doesn't hold water. Just because we succeed in eliminating one evil - the Snake River dams - doesn’t mean we will immediately try to remove the mainstem Columbia River dams. We have a long history of passing needed legislation without proceeding on to the next illogical step. No doubt there are some goofballs who would want to remove the Columbia River dams, but they would never get support for that.

This discussion of politics is ridiculous! Agruing about which politician actually cares less about fish and habitat is just silly. None of them care, and they will continue not to care unless people speak up.

The thing that brings us together on this board is fish and fishing. If we can't agree on the politics, at least we should try to reach some consensus on the fish and what is best for them. If we as sports people present a united front, just maybe the politicians might pay attention and do something good.

How can we expect them to do right by us let alone the fish, when we can't even agree on the basics like whether we want to make some sacrifices to protect wild fish, or feel that hatchery fish are a suitable replacement for wild fish.

We as a group need to get our act together before we point more fingers at the politicians.

After all the politicians job is really just to get re-elected. You can't blame them if they can just ingore our incoherent babbling and still get re-elected.

Its our job as sportsfishers and concerned tax-payers to make sure they do the right thing for our resource. That means we need to get organized and present a united front to the politicians. Only then will our voices be heard and respected.

Well, there may be a lineage of salmon that are doing poorly on the Snake Aunty, but all the folks I know here did nothing but rave about all the salmon choking the Snake and it's tribs last fall..... Steelhead are going thru like crazy now too.... I myself do not make the drive up to the Salmon or Clearwater to fish for them, but many here in Boise do. From what I am told, this fall has been unbelievable up there, as was the Spring run and last fall....

And speaking of the "Environmental" group, I know that Oregon Trout and Bill Bakke would love to see nothing but C&R or all rivers and removal/major overhall of ALL dams on the Columbia system. I have had conversations with Mr. Bakke in the past, and although he is very passionate and sincere in his views, he does belong to a group that many would classify as "elitist" and even "radical".....
No simple answer, but the majority of Americans are never going to be for rolling back the technology clock that has made our lives about the easiest in the world.... Sad maybe, but true.

I personally would like to see a bit more effort by all groups to get the Gov't to put a stop to poisoning the country for the sake of people before worrying about the fish. Here in Idaho, INEEL has done a very BAD job of cleaning up all the Nuke waste that is buried here.... Just read an article about a site that is leaking into the water table used by thousands for drinking water..... A bit more important than fish in my book.....

MC