Some debates are being started about the Kenai and a drift only fishery. Do you all have drift only fisheries?
I am not in favor of it for the Kenai and think it would only cause problems such as we are seeing on the Kasilof.

I'm assuming that when you say "drift only" that you mean rivers that prohibit motorized vehicles???

Washington State has no rules or regulations governing the use of motorized boats but it would seem that the time is ripe. The folks that use motorized boats on the Oly Pen rivers can run into issues with the locals, but some folks may not know the local rules.

As a drift boat owner and sled owner, I would welcome entire rivers and/or sections of rivers where motorized boats are prohibited but I doubt the laws will change anytime soon.

We already have one day on the Kenai that is drift boat only. There is currently a push for more days or maybe total drift only. Those familiar with the Kenai issues may know where it is coming from. Others familiar with or that have fished the Kenai may have some opinion specific for that river. I think the Kenai has some issues that are unique to it. Such as our ADF&G and Board of Fish is very caught up in parity between guided and unguided anglers and the potential for usergroups to be excluded from the fishery. My opinion is that many unguided anglers would be excluded in a drift only fishery.

We do have what are called selective fisheries though for many steelhead fisheries here in WA ,Yukon that have rules ismilar to what the Kenai has in the early run (no kill though) and no barbs either. These fisheries also prohibit fishing from a motorized craft ... although a motorboat can still be run on the waters ... much like we see on the KP.

Frankly, I think it would be a good thing for the Kenai. The riverbanks need it, success rates would also likely drop ... which is also good.

First and foremost though, the river needs a cap on guides.

I was pretty bummed last year when Park woosied out on their plan to cap it ... not a fan of the pressure that the cattle-herder operations put on the state over that issue.

There may be a day as well, where we'll need to see a limited entry / raffle on the unguided crowd as well ... I know you hate to hear that, but it may come to that point.

One option I've thought about is to reopen the river to guided fishing 24 hrs. and then limit to one trip daily. This would help spread the guide pressure thoughout the day ... making for a nicer expereience for guided guests. While some unguided anglers like the notion of having the river to themselves later one ... it would also make it more attractive to the unguided anglers to go at other times as well as you wouldn't have all the guides on the water at once.

That's something I often do on the Kasilof ... fish very off hours on the tides and there are many instances where we basically have the river to ourselves.

Lots of issues, but certainly I don't think any clear-cut answer!

I agree with you about the limit on guides. It was weak of them to take that off the table due to the type of guides, (fly by night, and one year bring them up guides). Drift only is good in theory but with the parity issues you would be taking a lot of local pressure off the river. You and I as guides would still be there but the old timer that has fished the river forever would not be able. I would be willing to bet that the C&R uproar would be small compared to the uproar of drift only.
Like you said, it is a very complex issue with no clear cut solution. Any idea brings abusers and nay sayers. It will be an interesting 2005 BOF!

Hey yukon

Funny you should bring this up. One of the hot-button WDFW issues currently burning on the table is banning powerboats from certain sections of the Satsop and Wynoochee Rivers here in my back yard. The concerns are similar to those on the Kenai..... crowding, noise, erosion from wakes, boats running a hole over and over again. The guide community has been the most outspoken opponent of the proposed ban.

Earlier there was a post on another thread about some Cowlitz guy bringing his sled up to Forks, and one of the replies warned about having a couple of spare tires, if you get my drift. Although there is nothing illegal about putting a powerboat in the local rivers, the local ettiquette dictates how the fishery is prosecuted rather than the letter of the law.


Bob

This is a great board with excellent participation. Do you have objections to Kenai issues being brought to this board if they become unwelcome on the AOJ Forum? This could be a good place to get a feel for non-resident opinions on pending Kenai regulatory changes.

I know there are many issues at work on the Kenai and I'm sure I do not know it well enough to have a truly informed opinion. But I did read recently that the level of gasoline in the water is of concern. If I remember right water quality standards for gas in the Kenai were only exceeded a few days last year, but I'm told last year was also a high water year. The concern is that in a low water year gas and oil pollution may become a more serious problem.

Solutions I have heard discussed included more non-motorized boat days, banning 2 cycle engines, banning back rolling and other techniques that require hours of engine idling.

I do not pretend to know the answers to this complex problem, but as one who has fished the Kenai since 1976 I have seen it evolve into a scene that I no longer want to participate in.

The Kenai is under siege and something does need to be done to limit the number of anglers. It will be hard to reduce the catch limits much more. Perhaps a limited entry system is needed??

I fished the Kenai when I was a little kid in the summers back in the early 80's.

We lived in Kenai in the summers in the early 80's. My dad worked in that area during the big construction boom.

Dont remember much about it but I would like to go back someday. But from what I hear and what Im hearing here maybe I would not want to bother as I would have a better experience elsewhere.

Just a very quick point for you all to consider, an I am sure Bob and Doc will fill you all in as we go. There is a huge concern over parity, non-guided verses guided. The Board of Fish wants it to be virtually equal and they don't want to limit or make it difficult for the non-guided angler to participate in the fishery.
As far as the oil in the river it is obviously from 2-strokes. The days it got into the dangerous zone were on Sundays. This day there are not guide boats on the river, only civilian boats. Most of those boats are older and the majority are 2 strokes. My guess is 95% or higher of the guides have 4 strokes. The problem is not with guides and their motors.

Does anyone know what happened with the WDFW talks on closing the Satsop and Wynoochee to sleds? Very curious......

riverdog

The last local meeting was held by the county (Grays Harbor) last month. The county voted NOT to endorse a powerboat ban. They do not have the final say, it's up to WDFW. Did anybody attend the discussion on this issue in Port Townsend? I believe it was on the agenda.

There are two separate issues and agencies when it comes to power boats on rivers.

First, WDFW cannot ban motors on rivers unless there is a conservation reason. They do have a mandate to "provide orderly fisheries", which would probably justify banning powerboats in the name of reducing conflict on a river, but they haven't used it that way, yet. They can, however, ban fishing from a boat with a motor.

The county can ban power boats on rivers, but cannot regulate fishing from one or not.

Fish on...

Todd.

Getting back to the Kenai, if any of you are interested in pursuing this issue further, click on the link below:

Kenai drift-only debate

fNp ... discussions of Alaska issues are welcome here. I'd like to see the board take on more of a regional flavor anyhow.

Plus, I know KK is deathly afraid of some of the controversies that surround many issues. And while some certainly become more dawn-out than they should perhaps, I also think the web has given us a great place to discuss issues that prior to its inception would have never had an avenue for debate. Why not take advantage of it?

I know for a fact that some of WDFW looks into this board from time to time, and while it may not always influence the majority of decisions ... if it's even only one here and one there, that's a good thing

In Idaho the upper Clearwater ( above Orofino) is no motors only- also no bait. Other than that its the same as the lower river, barbless, and of course release of all wild steelhead. Makes for a nice float and also some good fly water up there without all the zoo that comes with sleds and larger jet boats.

A couple things I have never understood about Guides in general ( not that I am against them) just don't see how there can be so many in Washington, Oregon and I guess Alaska. In Idaho, the number is capped for each particular section of river. They must have permits. These permits sell for big money- hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases. This accomplishes a few key things. Anybody who simply has some time and a boat can't sell his time as a "guide".. If you fish here with a guide you know in advance that this dude has a lot of money invested in this busness and is probably pretty up to date on where and how etc. - Its not something he does in his spare time. These guys also have to go through some basic safety and I believe emergancy medical training. Last but not least they are bonded. Its my opinion that there should never be a limit or even a concideration on the number of private boats vs guided boats on any river. If thats even an issue then you have too many guides, and if thats the case, you have too many people and need to restrict the total number by drawing for permits. The middle fork of the Salmon river is a good example of how this system works ( however, I think they give guides too many launch dates )

This system works for the guides also. It helps them make more money because its not a price war out there.. It weeds out the guys who really should not be selling their services.

Having spent several summers fishing the Kenai from the bank on a private 5 acre stretch of the river I learned to love the river. The last time out I launched a boat at the Riverbend Campground near Soldotna and cured myself for good on fishing that river in a private boat. A dad with his young son launched before me and immediately shot to the opposite shore where the super-swift current sucked them close to shore where low hanging branches knocked the kid into the water. When I launched myself the fast current swept me onto a gravel bar in seconds...Now I admit I did not appreciate how tough it can be to navigate an unfamiliar river. After getting used to the river I had to get used to the guides. What a mess! I found a nice slot and finally was able to hold the boat in it so the three fishermen in the boat could drop their Kwikfish. As soon as we got settled I looked upriver to see these huge boxcar looking boats boondogging downriver sideways...Of course, being guides they claimed right of way....kind of like blowboaters on the Sound...We had to move out of the way or risk getting t-Boned. It became obvious that guides on the Kenai do not like competition and especially not from private boats.

If I am not mistaken the Kenai had some guide-free days. The Kenai also has a 7 mile stretch upriver of the first lake that is float only and might be fly only. I think the river is such a zoo now I won't bother fishing it. Alot of the bank access is private and some of it is pay to play. I think something needs to be done to limit the madness on the Kenai.

Are the swarms of gill netters still out in force at the mouth?

Grandpa ... you were a backtroller in a dragger's water. Has nothing to do with guide or unguided ... the war between the two styles of fishing has been around for a lot of years ... and likely will continue to be that way.

Think there's a reason I've done Kasilof-only for the ten years I've been up there??

B-Run ... I'd be all for some sort of a limited entry system, unfortunately in Alaska & Washington, it's not likely too happen. IN AK, they tried to cap the numbers but many of the big operations threatened to sue because they wouldn't be able to hire their college kids for the summer to run boats for them. IN Washington, we can't even get insurance & first aid/CPR as a requirement, so I doubt we'll see anything too drastic in the future ... but I think B-Run is right in saying that you know you'll be with a "pro" under such a scenario.

I'm not saying that an experienced guide can't flip out our way, especially in some of the stretches of water ... but the last two "guide" boats to sink out here (both in fairly easy water on the Hoh) were one that didn't even have a guide's license and was later fined $2000 for such (clients were more than happy to help WDFW afterwards) and another that I won't even say much about, but certainly falls into the "wannabe" category

Fortunately, "Local Justice" & tradition keep most of the West End rivers drift-only without any need for a ban. Given what's happened in the Gray's Harbor streams ... it'll only be a matter of time before some more inconsiderate boaters break local traditions and we'll have to pursue more "official remedies"

Bob....thanks for your insight into Alaska fishing. All of my trips to Alaska have been expensive adventures with customers...My reference to the Kenai should have mentioned that running any boat on the Kenai takes real expertise. I was so panicked trying to stay out of everyone's way and stay off the gravel bars that I couldn't help the three novices sitting behind me whining about everything from how I was driving too slow or too fast to how they couldn't contact the bottom...With over 20 years experience skippering in the salt I was a babe in the woods on the Kenai....it was almost pathetic.

I am 100% in favor of guided fishing....especially on unfamiliar big water like the Kenai or Kasilof. I really love the helicopter fly in fishing out of Deep Creek across Cook Inlet to the volcano side for solitude, bears and tons of fish...no people either. Problem with that is that I don't hang around with the billionaires who built the place anymore and can't affford that lifestyle.

In Washington all of my steelheading experiences have been with good guides. Drift boat fishing is my favorite as it is so peaceful compared to the ruckus a sled causes. I hope to get out this winter with an expert who can teach this novice how to fish for steelhead. I recently got a couple of Dave Vedder's books and will read both during the holidays...then I will seek out a river to practice on.

A good guide is essential in my book whether it be on the Kenai or the Sky....

IMHO, The Kenai is a Mess, alot of the guides are doughballs who get lucky. There are too many boats combines with too little skill. I went in a private boat one night after the guides left and we hooked 17 fish including a 75 lb king. When I talked to so local no name guides the next day, they were both lucky to scrape out 1 fish per boat. I have seen some real common knowldege rules broken by the guides up there, like quick striking quickfish and BB bites, running cottonball baits, and a host of other things. Its is a great river that is a victim of its own greatness. I still think it is a good powerboat river, but the 35hp ban has to go.. Those 20ft willies w/ 4 clients can barely get upon plane and create huge wakes. Somthing has to change or its just going to get worse, unfortunatley I have no answers to propose.

I really enjoy DB mondays. I have taken people who don't fish the river anymore because of the zoo. They say that it is much like it used to be, VERY ENJOYBLE! The fishing is great aside from a handfull of unstickered guide boats who are not as polite as the rest. I don't think it would hurt them that much to give two days to drift boats. I won't hold my breath however. Going out in the evenings or early morning is ok, but it sure is nice not to have to deal with the tide rip of boat wakes.