Steve-
Hmmmmm...in many of the situations that you provided us, it would be rare to run into a wild steelhead.

And in your second set of examples...

Until you actually catch and release a wild steelhead from one of these types of situations and recieved a citation because you had to remove the fish from the water to release it, then I consider that comment a valid arguement. Given that the majority of enforcement officers use disgression, I do not forsee you having a problem. And I have already recieved word from one officer, that he will in fact use disgression...if you run into a situation like this and you treat the fish with care and respect, you will not get a ticket.

Your question was nothing more then a rhetorical question used to imply that I thought it was okay to remove wild salmon from the water but not wild steelhead.

btw-
Bruce I really don't care that you don't like me. You don't have to. But I must say I would never judge someone solely based upon their ideas behind fisheries management.

Gawldarn Steve, you make fishing sound so dangerous! Ever thought of takin' up golf?

...wait that won't work neither. Too many chances o' gettin' clunked in the head with a stray ball or run over by a cart!

Thats cool Sparkey. I don't either. Take Jerry, Eddie or ( Maybe even Todd ) We disagree a lot but I still like them.

Aunty, whats the adress to Bruce's site again??

Bruce-
I answered your question....opinions? Or are you daed set on turning this into a mudslinging thread?

Sorry Sparkey I am finding it impossible to have a healthy constructive debate with you. I'm off to a PSA meeting soon so feel free to continue on without me.

"have yet to see any pro-active alternative to WSR or the WSC for that matter."

Here's one for you:

In Alaska on the Kenai the guides were limited to certain days of the week I think...Can't remember the particulars but I bet Bob knows...How about proposing through the commission that we restrict all guides in rivers during steelhead season to 3 days a week? I don't know but I wonder if that rule , if enacted, would result in lower wild steelhead mortality and perhaps do more good for the wild runs than a blanket WSR rule. And what if management was enacted to restrict guides to three days a week and also only open the rivers to one weekend day? Then include WSR in the mix as well.

There you go..a proactive suggested solution.

You were the one that turned the debate negative. Oh well...

Interesting Sparkey....

Would you like to comment on Grandpa's suggestion I would be I dont' have time.

Actually Bruce, I think grandpa's idea could under certain circumstances have some validity, however...

The goal behind the thread was to find proactive solutions to the issues facing wild steelhead away from the basic 'how many can we kill/can we not' debate.

Plus, a guide who knows how to properly release fish and responsibily fish bait, may do less harm over an entire week then a good who doesn't know how to do either could do in a 3 day period.

Okay, this thread was just about to get whacked, but if we can stay on track here, I'll leave it open.

GP ... it's five days a week on the Kenai in king season on the Kenai for guides. The rules results are open to debate ... it's forced all the guides on an already very busy river to being on the water at the same time which has made it tough on anglers wishing to fish on their on these days. I'm pretty sure the initial ruling on this was based more upon crowding issues than it was for conservation, although it has some effect there as well.

It'll open some doors of enforcement that will blow many's minds around these parts.

For a professional guide that has some overhead, 3 days a week will not allow most to make a living. You'll likely end up with lots more of the "part-time" guide crowd with such a regulation and that may not be the best end result.

To limit guide traffic (which isn't the worst thing overall), it might be best to limit guides to a specific region only for their licenses. That would help eliminate the overflow that occurs when other streams close and the remaining open streams don't get hammered as bad.

You'd probably see the same benefits to the fishery without taking away the liveliehood of those that fish rivers in the area in which they live.

"Plus, a guide who knows how to properly release fish and responsibily fish bait, may do less harm over an entire week then a good who doesn't know how to do either could do in a 3 day period."

That is a totally unsustantiated opinion.

I think a case could be made that having so many guides with customers on board fishing in a river with wild steelhead migrating in it creates a substantial impact on the fish. Guides may know alot about fish handling but their customers don't. And it is the shear numbers of fishers that guides may contribute to the problem.

Don't worry Aunty..I am not advocating this idea but just pointing to it as a possible rule if the stocks are so weak as to require restrictions of any kind. Everyone should know by now that I am for WSR and also wild salmon release..trout release....etc. (not halibut release) I am also afraid of the tide of restrictions all over the place to stop fishing in the name of conservation....No fishing zones for example that are put in place without scientific cause but just because it is the "environmental thing to do". Spills over into politics too...very small minority groups have succeeded in hijacking the courts to force things on the majority even though the majority is against the "protection" the minority is convinced is the only right way to do things.

If harvest is the focus then why not curtail harvest? DUH....First though why not determine whether harvest is the culprit and if so what kind of harvest? and who is harvesting the most....Not some feel good rule that will not get results. If the stocks are really crashing as JG points out then maybe more drastic measures are needed...IF and only if saving the wild fish is the goal and not if the goal is to clear the rivers of the Neandrathals who don;t fish right....leaving the rivers more fishable for those who are really fishing the right way.

Just some food for thought.

Bob..let me make it clear that I have been sending up trial balloons to see what the scope of this issue is besides name calling. I have nothing but respect for most guides. All my steelheading has been with guides and I don't want to see your business regulated to death and do not think the idea I floated is a necessary one. I just want to show that there is more than one way to skin the steelhead...I am learning alot about the mindset of both sides of this issue so I can be more articulate about it when it counts.

Sadly I must open myself up to flaming by pointing out that if the nets were out of our rivers we would not be having this discussion. Maybe some day that will come true. Until then we must continue to put our little fingers in the dike.

Thanks Bob for all your insight and patience on this issue.

I hope you don't hink it was your post that had the itchy finger going GP ... you asked a legit ? and I have no issue with it being discussed. Many parts of fisheries management have been tried in other areas and we can learn from the pro's and con's of each. I happen to be one of the few that fishes a lot of different fisheries, both on my own and guiding, and have seen the results of many different rules in real life.

It's one of the issues I have with the Forks city people that know very little about the fishing industry and the impacts of closures and the benefits of world-class fishing.

I was referring to the little exchange we had going while I laid down for a rare nap that had me ready to close this until your question came up

Ok Sparky if you must know The reason I think your a smuck is for 1 of 2 reasons Im not sure which but maybe you can enlighten me.

1. You might think that you have done some great thing trying to pertect wild steelhead. But I said so before the numbers of people that misshandle steelhead has to be the lowest persentage of all the things that kill a hooked steelhead. In fact I would say a light leader on a wispy fly rod kills more steelhead then the guys who dont know how to release a fish. There are far many more people that respect and handle all fish with care. Most of the jerks that mishandle fish are lowlifes anyways that when given the chance stuff the fish under the seat and hustle home anyways.
I think that you just like the attention.
aunty m pointed out that others jumped on the band wagon but you seem to point it out every few weeks with posts like sparkys law being practiced etc....I have fished my hole life and in the last 10 years only regretted turning 1 yes I said 1 bass loose that I thought might have been hooked a little to deep on a crank bait to survive. And I have released throphys from every thing from marlin to steelhead. I have let go steelhead where I could have leagly keept them. Now you come along with your way or the highway BS and decides that everybody should do it one way and one way only. get a clue, your all about making others comply with what you think is right but when people ask you why you still fish for steelhead your not willing to go the extra mile to pertect the fish that you claim to respect. And the pic that I aquired of you holding a fish out of water and posted on this web site was pretty dark and most likely pulled off a bed. I realy think you just like to attention.

2. you have hidden agends... while alot of people fish with conventional tackle (hardware) and fly rods (as I do) we all know the snobs that purest fly fishermen can be. they want special waters with lots of restrictions just so they can catch some fish.

Right from the Conversation with the F and W commissioners article in F&H news:

Commissioner R.P. Van Gytenbeek an avid fly angler initially proposed a permanent ban on retention of steelhead, when that was shot down he proposed a 6 year ban, when that was shot down Commissioner Cahill propossed a 2 year ban that barley passed.

now van geekensmeck is from seattle and he know whats best for the people out on forks so lets just bring big brother in an make sure they comply....Fly fishermen have always for a bad rap from the few who just have to have thing for themselves they have special lakes special sections of rivers etc. you know its true. Now other agendas pop into play with all the people spatting about this the nets are still in, the streams are still polluted, the gravel is being mined. there are alot worse things then a picture taken of a fish out of water. and dont think this agenda is not about some flyfishermen wanting water to themselves.


so you tell me where do you fit in...I think you should stop fishing for them if you really think they are being hurt by catch and release...com make your stand......DJ

Aunty ...We can't simply look at fisheries with an eye on financial impacts but we must include those impacts in the discussion. If I had a business in Forks I would panic too. I would also be even more upset about the tribal netting. (if that is possible). Personally i have focused on the huge imbalance between sports and commercials when it comes to economic impacts....sports win hands down if economics were the only criteria .

OK grandpa is tired now...lots of Easter leftovers to browse through....

Keep the name calling to a dull roar while I'm gone. Thanks Bob for your well balanced replies.

Ok heres an Idea.

Have a block at the license seller that gives a county of the buyers choice $5 of every license sold back to that county to spend 50% on fishing releated and 50% anyway the county wants to. Now the pay off is people who see valid county programs to clean rivers and take care of resorces payback for their actions... let the lowest form of govenment take care of the problems like it should not some flyguy from seattle. The other choise people could make would be to give money to countys with rivers that need a little help. money talks and would do some good....it would still be a choise (kinda like a vote) to reward good programs...

DJ-
First of all, I am not constantly gloating about 'Sparkey's Law'. Yes, once, I started a thread titled "Sparkey's Law Being Practiced" but it was totally tongue and cheek.

It is yourself, and the others opposed to the law that keep referring to it as Sparkey's Law and giving me the credit for the regulation. I have constantly stated that I was just one of many who sent in a proposal regarding fish handling and I was one of many that supported the proposed regulation that the WDFW passed onto the Commission.

Secondly, I would like to know what picture you are referring to. I spend alot of time fishing summer-runs in September and October on rivers that contain long-distance steelhead. Some of the fish tend to take on a darker red-side appearence in the Fall eventhough they are months from spawning. Plus, I know the type of water the fish spawn in and I never target that type of water when spawning fish maybe around. So, please do not acuse me of fishing over spawners.

Next, I want to know what my hidden agenda is. Yes I spend the vast majority of my time fishing for steelhead with the bugrod but I also spend a good number of days every year fishing with the drift rod and many of my very good freinds spend more time with the drift rod then the bug rod (if they fish the bug rod at all).

I do believe that bait should be banned on certain rivers at certain times of the year. But, that is based upon the science that has shown the high mortality rates trout face when hooked and released with bait. Why should it not be okay to kill adult wild steelhead on their way up the river but okay to slaughter (and yes I use the term slaughter) juvenille steelhead via releasing bait caught juvenille fish in the late spring and summer. I only propose Selective Fisherys when I feel that the fish will benefit...as a matter of fact I took great pleasure last week hooking two steelhead on the bug rod right in the middle of the bait water (which I actually do quite often) so I don't need Selective Waters to catch fish, I just feel at certain times they protect them.

And lastly, if you think I have some sort of hidden agenda, I will have you know that you will never see me propose a fly-only streth of river for steelhead.

You are more then welcome to make accuisations BUT please back them up.

And regarding your comment that if I think catch and release is so harmful, then why dont I stop fishing for them???...well, I will answer that again. You can minimize the mortality rate of released fish via the gear that you use and the manner that you handle the fish. And if a river is underescaped, I am the first one to say close it.