Lots of yak on both sides. In your opinion was the operation a strategic success in breaking the insurgency or a failure. Long term or short term?

Hard to say.........it may still be too early to tell.

I'll just say that I don't think it was a very good idea to announce plans for the operation in advance of launching it.

If you are looking to eliminate the insurgents, then why warn them?

My only knock on this operation kind of falls in line with Dan's. We didn't get the leaders. I would assume that didn't happen because they knew we were coming. Other Than that I would say success.

I agree Dan, it's too early to tell. Whether this particular battle is a success or not, I believe the real question is whether the majority of Iraqi natives view the US as concurrers or liberators. If we are viewed as liberators, then the number of insurgents should diminish. Otherwise, they will constantly be re-constituting themselves and we will never win the peace, i.e. Viet Nam. We may win battles, but if the Iraqi people don't want us there, this will be a complete waste.

I agree that this is a hard call. History, as usual, will decide.

One things for sure is that the Marines are fully capable of urban warfare. I think that the insurgents learned that the Marines are a whole lot worse then any Air Force "Shock and Awe." The mission was a success in that the Marines wiped out the enemy (ain't heard a lot about any survivors) in what may go down as one of the great military operations in a long time. I don't think the battle of Fallujah will be a great Al Queda training video.

I'm not real sure if that will lead to stratigic victory though.

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I heard that the plan/timing was 'announced/leaked' to the media in advance of the operation to fool the insurgents and make them show their hand as to what they had planned to do when we went in to help minimize our casualties--if that's true it may have been a wise move by the military/intellegence community.

After thinking about it, I'm not sure what would have been the right move.

Advanced notice gives the planners/higher-ups in the "organization" time to slip away, while their followers stay behind to fight.

Not giving advanced notice could have led to excessive civilian deaths and a backlash from the civilian residents of the city.

It's sure been ugly in the region in the last couple weeks, though. I'd hate to be the one to formulate a strategy at this point.

I'd really hate to be the guy putting corpses into bags.

I agree with the previous - too early to tell.

Top Stories - Reuters


Report: CIA Paints Pessimistic Iraq Picture

Tue Dec 7, 7:35 AM ET Top Stories - Reuters



NEW YORK (Reuters) - The situation in Iraq (news - web sites) is unlikely to improve anytime soon, according to a classified cable and briefings from the CIA (news - web sites), The New York Times reported on Tuesday.


Reuters Photo



The assessments are more pessimistic than the Bush administration's portrayal of the situation to the public, government officials told the newspaper.


The classified cable -- sent last month by the CIA's station chief in Baghdad after the completion of a one-year tour of duty there -- painted a bleak picture of Iraq's politics, economics and security and reiterated briefings by Michael Kostiw, a senior CIA official, according to the Times.


The station chief cannot be identified because he is still working undercover, the Times added.


The cable, described as "unusually candid," cautioned that security in the country is likely to deteriorate unless the Iraqi government makes significant progress in asserting its authority and building up the economy, the paper said.


Spokesmen for the White House and the CIA told the Times that they could not discuss intelligence matters and classified documents.

Sounds like we should bag the idea of a democracy for those backwards heathens and rain some bunker busters down on the mosques and perhaps level the place except the oil fields which we should just occupy. Looks like we may have to do the same in Saudi Arabia some day soon too. A few Tridents on Iran and we're all set.

if you look at afganistan, it was a failure. after the u.s liberated the country, they were given freedom. i dont know of past statistic, but afganistan is the #1 opium grower in the world. what will happen to iraq once the u.s. withdraws most of their troops.

Let me see...hmmmmm OH I know...Iraq will be the #2 opium supplier???

99 out of 100 morticians agree

FALLUJAH HUGE SUCCESS!!

And if we had left Fallujah in the hands of the terrorists it would have been 100 out of 100.

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Check Mate!

I wish I could have the same sentiments as you Aunty with regard to Iraq. I personally do not forsee any tidier an exit to Iraq as was in Vietnam. With that said, it was the questioning of the commanders choices that ultimately helped get us out of Vietnam. So I am not convinced questioning the choices made in Iraq is the wrong move.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for those soldiers that grilled Rumsfeld yesterday. I'm sure the answers given to them quelled all of their concerns. You know, answers like "you go to war with the military you have not the one you want?". Boy must be nice for them soldiers to know that they were all we had not what we wanted to send...

At least there was some pleasure in watching him squirm like a worm in front of the soldiers. Ultimately I feel it is the soldiers and their families this administration needs to answer to. Time will tell...

That was deep Waky real deep. I bet Rummy really gives a hoot what you think.

Tommy Franks said today that the lag time on the armor is not a "want " on the pentagons part but a reality of the shifting nature of war. Supply has been unable to keep up with demand. He felt Rummy would only see the comments as constructive and try to fix the problem ASAP.


RUMSFELD SET UP; REPORTER PLANTED QUESTIONS WITH SOLIDER
Thu Dec 09 2004 11:49:38 ET

Chattanooga Times Free Press reporter Edward Lee Pitts is embedded with the 278th Regimental Combat Team, now in Kuwait preparing to enter Iraq, and is filing articles for his newspaper. Pitts claims in a purported email that he coached soldiers to ask Defense Secretary Rumsfeld questions!

From: EDWARD LEE PITTS, MILITARY AFFAIRS
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2004 4:44 PM
To: Staffers

Subject: RE: Way to go

I just had one of my best days as a journalist today. As luck would have it, our journey North was delayed just long enough see I could attend a visit today here by Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. I was told yesterday that only soldiers could ask questions so I brought two of them along with me as my escorts. Before hand we worked on questions to ask Rumsfeld about the appalling lack of armor their vehicles going into combat have. While waiting for the VIP, I went and found the Sgt. in charge of the microphone for the question and answer session and made sure he knew to get my guys out of the crowd.

So during the Q&A session, one of my guys was the second person called on. When he asked Rumsfeld why after two years here soldiers are still having to dig through trash bins to find rusted scrap metal and cracked ballistic windows for their Humvees, the place erupted in cheers so loud that Rumsfeld had to ask the guy to repeat his question. Then Rumsfeld answered something about it being "not a lack of desire or money but a logistics/physics problem." He said he recently saw about 8 of the special up-armored Humvees guarding Washington, DC, and he promised that they would no longer be used for that and that he would send them over here. Then he asked a three star general standing behind him, the commander of all ground forces here, to also answer the question. The general said it was a problem he is working on.

The great part was that after the event was over the throng of national media following Rumsfeld- The New York Times, AP, all the major networks -- swarmed to the two soldiers I brought from the unit I am embedded with. Out of the 1,000 or so troops at the event there were only a handful of guys from my unit b/c the rest were too busy prepping for our trip north. The national media asked if they were the guys with the armor problem and then stuck cameras in their faces. The NY Times reporter asked me to email him the stories I had already done on it, but I said he could search for them himself on the Internet and he better not steal any of my lines. I have been trying to get this story out for weeks- as soon as I foud out I would be on an unarmored truck- and my paper published two stories on it. But it felt good to hand it off to the national press. I believe lives are at stake with so many soldiers going across the border riding with scrap metal as protection. It may be to late for the unit I am with, but hopefully not for those who come after.

The press officer in charge of my regiment, the 278th, came up to me afterwords and asked if my story would be positive. I replied that I would write the truth. Then I pointed at the horde of national media pointing cameras and mics at the 278th guys and said he had bigger problems on his hands than the Chattanooga Times Free Press. This is what this job is all about - people need to know. The solider who asked the question said he felt good b/c he took his complaints to the top. When he got back to his unit most of the guys patted him on the back but a few of the officers were upset b/c they thought it would make them look bad. From what I understand this is all over the news back home.

Thanks,

Lee

EDWARD LEE PITTS FILED STORY ABOUT THE TROOPS BEFORE THE POW-WOW WITH RUMSFELD

Developing...

Did I offend you on the other thread so you had to try and slam me here? What was that about me getting a life????

For the record, I was not trying to be deep but trying to respond to Aunty's post and post my own thoughts on that subject. If you interpret that as trying to be deep so be it. It does make me wonder how deep one can be with a cut-n-paste?

I am to assume all the cheers that came after the question were other planted soldiers instructed to cheer for that particular question?

Waky,

I do not get easily offended so knock yourself out.


In no way shape or form can Iraq even remotely be compared to vietnam and even the most learned libs hung that up a year ago. Rummy was really shaking in his boots
and the soldier really dogged him according to you and Katie Couric.