SG,

Thats your definition of a perfect God based on your time on earth and imgining that that is all there is. The biggest mistake man makes is to limit God and define him by mans terms.

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Salmo,

TK,

And since God doesn't show up and define Himself to us, how else can He be defined, except by men? Devinely inspired ones, no doubt. Says who? Oh, other men. So there we have it. The definition of God, by men who swear that it is by God himself, in the form of devine inspiration in men, yet definition by men, nonetheless. I need to rent "The Greatest Story . . ." and watch the talking burning bush.

The unfortunate fact is that this whole shebang is an issue of faith, and faith only. Either you buy into other men - oh, but not men like you and me, they're devinely inspired men - telling you the definition of God, or you take it on your own personal journey in faith, absent empirical evidence. No problem with that. Any other way, and it wouldn't, couldn't, be an act of faith.

I'll just say that Christianity in the U.S. in undergoing a period of especially bad salesmanship on the part of its most visible and vocal "practitioners." I placed quotes around that because we discovered the other day that these most visible, vocal are actually just another cult.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Rory,

And if it doesn't, what's the loss? Really? Weigh an intangible, imaginary benefit against a slew of tangible booze, women, and other racous living.

Aunty,

You go, gal! Meet ya' at the church of the unholy pagans along a pristine river amid old growth forest. Oh, and with a mountain backdrop.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Hey, this is getting fun

I have to run, but will respond later today or tomorrow...

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If you really think a slew of tangible booze, women and other raucus living really makes a person anything more than temporarily happy--then as they say--go ahead and 'help yourself to happiness'.

As for the imaginary benefit you spoke of--one could just as easily assume the benefits are tangible and turn the perspective around believing that it's better to live for something more and be proven wrong than to live for nothing and be proven right. Or not--it's free country. :p

Or any other question regarding Religion, God, whats right and whats wrong or anything on the matter. However, you seem to have all the answers. Maybe your God ???

THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS.. God has never told anyone, anything, at any time.. ever. Most organized religion hold on to the theory that God told some folks ( directly mind you) how it is and should be many thousands of years ago.. and never has said another word since... However, as far as Christians go, they all interpet his words ( what or if there were any and I doubt it ) actually mean. Most often to the tune of some cash profit or control of the population. Organized religion discredits itself by discrediting each other.

i skimmed thru some of this so hopefully it hasnt been said.... but- i believe that one should have the freedon to have as many kids as they want..... but they should not be subsidised.... the more kids you have ...the more taxes you should pay instead of the other way around like it is today

and couples with no kids should get a tax break as should couples that adopt children in need.....if the right wing gets a tax break for driving a hummer than we should atleast get a tax break for adoption

while their at it they should put a sin tax on baby food and diaper service...

After all, you do have to have sex in order to make them...

Lupo,

"if the right wing gets a tax break for driving a hummer "

All you need to have is a vehicle that weighs 6001 lbs to qualify. Just about any newer F250 meets that standard. It takes you out of a safe harbor however .

"Hey, this is getting fun

I have to run, but will respond later today or tomorrow... "


Well, after a much needed vacation and busy schedule since, I realized I never had a chance to respond like I wanted...

So while I'm sure nobody really even noticed or cared, I'm going to anyway

Stay tuned...

And if it doesn't, what's the loss? Really? Weigh an intangible, imaginary benefit against a slew of tangible booze, women, and other racous living.

How about that living the Christian life will give me the peace of knowing that I will be a better:
- father
- husband
- citizen, in terms of kindness to fellow men and giving up needless addictions

I could go on, but the temporary "highs" you mention above seem far more shallow than what I would have expected from you Salmo.

This is a great thread and why I keep coming back....

OK, round 1:

“The perfect God is also the perfect environmentalist. Look at all the cool stuff he made!”


I couldn’t agree more 


“Perhaps he didn't. Perhaps some people took a good and decent man and turned him into the Son of God. Maybe the idea to control simple people led others to expand upon the idea. “

The evidence shows that he believed in his own divinity. This is covered in great detail by CS Lewis and Josh McDowell (see the Lord, Liar, or Lunatic discussion…).

Also, regarding the “simple people” idea, the fact of the matter is, followers of Christ from day 1 through present times have ranged from scholars to uneducated peasants\poor people. Working class to the wealthy. Doctors, scientists, teachers, Presidents, high IQ, low IQ, etc etc. You won’t find a ‘box’ to stereotype all\most Christians in….


“When there is a price charged, it's a condition. I never said ANYTHING about how God wants people to live their lives free of sin, so why try to claim that's what I said? READ IT AGAIN! WHAT PART OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?”

OK, you got me there. There was\is a price. That price however has been PAID IN FULL via Christ’s death on the cross.


“A perfect God would NOT put a price on salvation, because there isn't anyone that needs saving in the first place. It's a long running hoax as far as I am concerned and only the gullible fall for the "doctine" created by men to control others.”

So you know for sure what a ‘perfect God’ would do? I respect your opinion, but that’s really all it is… Of course you don’t see the need for a Savior because you don’t see your own sin and the sin of others (well, it seems you do like to point to it in others from time to time ). Again, the idea that “only the gullible” can be the followers of Christ is a silly argument. Sure, there are lots of gullible people who become Christians. But clearly not all Christians are gullible…

As for “controlling others”, that also doesn’t ad up. Yes, MANY have and still do abuse Christianity (as well as other religions, politics, etc, etc) and use it for their own agendas. But most churches I’ve attended have no other agenda beyond serving others in the community\world (World Vision, Salvation Army, etc) and sharing the Gospel with others along the way.

In fact, those who are truly ‘religious’ for the sake of power, greed, control, money, etc have hated the message of Christ since he began sharing it to today (that’s why some churches steer away from actually reading\teaching from the Bible – but choose to approach things in a ‘topical’ manner where they can avoid hard questions and steer people away from the actual message in scripture. By setting people free from religious entrapments, regulations, obligations, etc, Jesus was directly threatening the political, social, cultural, and ‘religious’ status quo and that lead to his crucifixion…

More:

“If God is as perfect as his advocates here claim, the human body wouldn’t need a different design. “

And I propose that it DOESN’T need a different design. The bodies work just fine It’s the people making the choices of how\when they use that is the issue…

“Nor would humans need to behave differently.”

That’s just silly. Actions have consequences – good or bad. Just because a choice a person makes results in a negative consequence, doesn’t mean he was ‘designed’ wrong.

“ They could “practice” making babies all they want. “

My wife and I manage this just fine

“A perfect and omnipotent God would bestow the birth of children only to couples ready and responsible enough to assume the duties of parenthood.”

First off, not everyone is or wants to be under the ‘control’ of God. God allows us to make choices. Just like he allows bad things to happen. It is up to us to choose how we will choose and how we will respond to the possible consequences. Having a baby out of wedlock (say for a teen girl) is surely a huge burden and responsibility. But it doesn’t mean she can’t overcome and grow\learn from the experience.


This “design” works throughout human history, with children being born when parents are the right age according to capabilities and lifespans of their era.

But again, this requires God controlling people in a micro-management sort of way. Your ‘design’ requires God overstepping the ‘free will’ rule…


“I don’t have to allow for “free will,” as an omnipotent God and human free will are mutually exclusive. “

Perhaps. I’m not sure any of use FULLY understand how free will and omnipotence REALLY works…

“And yes, I’ve read the arguments for both cases. I’m partial to the case that humans cannot possible have free will if the omnipotent God knows their predestination to accept or reject him. “

That’s certainly a possibility. But clearly not the ONLY alternative…


“I accept that if God knows, then it ain’t free will (kind of like Aunty M’s stance on unconditional love - and your mailbox story is not an analogous fit BTW.).”

First off, who knows for sure what God ‘knows’. The concept of ‘time’ on Earth is not something He is bound by. For some bad examples, you might know the end of the movie or how a game will turn out – but you had no control of the choices made by the actors\players…

“And if it is free will, then God ain’t omnipotent, which also means not perfect, which also means not God as described by you and most “true” believers.”

Being ‘all powerful’ does not mean you control all things. It means he has the power to, but God chooses to allow us to have free will. He desires us to come to Him and love Him on our own accord. He has no use to mindless robots… Your understanding of being ‘perfect’ and being ‘omnipotent’ is clearly limited, since you have never actually experienced yourself (or at least I don’t think you have ).


“Further, what is so perfect about a God, who first makes Adam and Eve, but demands that they not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? He wants them to be illiterate, but happy, retards? I thought we’ve come to understand that all good and responsible parents want to educate our children, and that includes knowing about both good and evil. Doesn’t this story stretch it a bit for you?”

Have you ever put a piece of candy within hands reach of a 2-3 year old, told them not to eat it, then left the room. How long did the candy last? God KNEW what they would do. Keep in mind that he has an ‘end game’ in mind that included salvation through Jesus Christ. Besides, this so called fruit was only the knowledge of good and evil, not knowledge\wisdom in general… The result\consequence of ‘eating the fruit’ was being bound by death and removed from the ‘garden’ and the presence of God.

As for the good parent idea – God was not only thinking of Adam and Eve, but of all the future generations to come. And as you suggested, God was using this not only as a learning experience, but as the final solution for sinful, free choosing people to be able to be reconciled to God through Christ.

More (i'm copy\pasting from a Word doc because it's easier for me to keep all the quotes I'm responding to organized and chip away at it when I get time...):

>>>“And if the NT is about breaking people free from the laws of the OT, are Jews condemned to Hell?”

***Following rules and being religious or a ‘good person’ is not what will get you into heaven. This is taught in the OT as well as the NT. Jews and Christians only differ on who the Messiah is. Christians say he already came – Jews are still looking. Keep in mind all of the original Christians were Jewish.

The Law is there simply to help show us that we are sinners. In the OT, most didn’t really understand this. They tried to be ‘religious’ and do the ‘right things’. But the system clearly did not work. No man (aside from Jesus) is without sin or capable of being ‘good enough’.

To make this point, Jesus told his disciples, if you want to earn your way to heaven, it is pretty simple – just be perfect as my Father in Heaven is perfect. That had to get them worried… He went on about the law: You shall not murder. Most of us would think, hey, I’m doing fine here, I’ve never murdered anyone… But then Jesus says “if you hate your brother, you have committed murder in your heart”. Concerning the law about not committing adultery, Jesus says, if you even lust for another woman in your heart, you are guilty of adultery. Now he really has his disciples attention. Another fun one that would have annoyed the current Religious Leaders of the time was this: “it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to earn his way to Heaven”. He continues drilling this concept into them until the point is clear – “I can’t do it on my own”.

Jeff,

Shallow? God alone shall decide, according to those who claim best to know Him.

I'm just trying to have some fun with this otherwise serious (?) topic. I'm about as Christian as I am American. That is, I was born in America, and I was born into a family that more identified with Christianity than Buddhism, Islam, Shinto, Judaism, etc. But it was typical Scandinavian Christianity, wherein men attend church at least 3 times, for Christening, for marrying, and for burying. Not a lot of Bible reading went on, but most of 'em practiced the Golden Rule most of the time.

Then in the 80s I noticed the emergence of that cult that has come to be the Christian Coalition, the Fundamentalist Right, or, as I like to say, the fundy right wing whacko Christian cult. These hypocrites espouse the same piety that TK and Rory do; they accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, and then the rest of the time they behave like the biggest jerks on the block. The general intolerance and self-rightousness is nauseating. However, I've come to understand it and them better. That seems to be the real beauty of Christianity, at least in their fundy flavor. Accept God, and be an a$$hole. Which gets back to how the story of the Prodigal Son left a bad taste for this flavor of Christianity in me. Hence, the shallowness of my response. Boozin', whorin', and the racous living of a general reprobate is entirely consistent with the kind of piety that TK and Rory espouse and exemplify on this BB.

Now comes Rory to suggest that my pursuit of boozin, whorin, and racousness are only temporary forms of happiness. Life on earth is temporary. Eternal life may or may not exist, and if it does exist, is obtainable only by faith. Boozin, whorin, and racous living don't preclude access to this eternal life. Only the alledged failure to accept God, etc. precludes it. And for all I know, acceptance of God might not offer any more than a temporary high, also. It's that lack of proof and counting on faith alone, thing.

Further, I can be a Christian and or a Pagan and still be a good father, husband, and citizen. And I'll vouch for myself that I've been good at all three. And boozin, whorin, and racous living aren't inherently needless addictions. Too much of any of those typically proves unhealthy, but they can add dimension and quality of life experiences that cannot be known any other way! And in candor, altho I booze, I limit it to healthy doses cuz I like my life. And altho I might like to go whorin'(figure of speech here), I don't have the energy to invest in chasing lots of women, as fun as it sounds, and it does detract from serious fishing time, same as when I was young. And then there is the whole health factor to consider. As for racous living, I've achieved more than I ever set out to do, so now I'm just looking for another mountain to climb.

And lastly, always remember that reality is over-rated.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Twin peaks is always a good climb. As you age the ascent may require additional oxygen. Lawd I love bilateral symmetry. All things in moderation, there are some exceptions.

Salmo, Sometimes I'm just a little to literal in what I read. Nothing person. Interesting perspective.

"These hypocrites espouse the same piety that TK and Rory do; they accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, and then the rest of the time they behave like the biggest jerks on the block. "

SG,
And standing up in front of your community, friends family and usually god and saying that you will love and honor your spouse until death then taking it all back is what? Where I come from it's calle dbeing a liar. I may be a jerk in the eyes of a liar but too my Friends, family and community I keep my word.

OH I bet your wife wishes she could take it back TK.