#626466 - 10/07/10 12:35 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: FleaFlickr02]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: Termite Country
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When I participate in these discussions, I can't help but wonder why the personal accountability of the borrowers never comes up. I understand that ours has long been a culture of spending beyond our means, but when the purchase involves the roof over one's head, one should be slightly more prudent in his decision making, IMO. There is something to be said about that, of that there is no doubt. Although consider this; if a kindergarden teacher leaves their classroom unattended and upon their departure leaves the room full of pixie sticks and Coca Cola, who do you blame when they come back an hour later and the room is completely destroyed? The teacher,........ or the kids? The thing about demand is that in some instances it can remain constant. People always want stuff. When diving into the problem of credit expansion shouldn't the finger be pointed at those who provided the Schnoppster for the punch bowl? I don't disagree with you entirely; I just think that experienced, life-hardened adults SHOULD be more capable of restraint than innocent, fun-loving children. I didn't absolve the banks of all the responsibility, after all. I agree completely. Adults would have no problem refraining from snorting pixie sticks and hardlining Coca Cola. Although, imagine locking 10 adults in a room with a cool million in cash lying on the floor and one key to get out tied to the ceiling. I guarantee when you came back in an hour the scene would resemble something similar to Lord of the Flies. It's not reasonable to expect individuals to act rationally when faced with decisions that appear to have unlimited gain, no matter their age or maturity level. Some people believe that these types of feelings and decision making can be regulated away. In the real world the only real deterent is consequences for your actions. Imagine the same scenario with the million on the floor. Now rig the key from the ceiling to a 220v livewire. It'll only take one actor making the mistake of going for the key. Anybody else that tried after that would be strengthening the gene pool. Come back an hour later and those 10 adults will be as calm as Hindu cows.
Edited by StinkingWaters (10/07/10 12:47 PM)
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#626510 - 10/07/10 05:01 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: StinkingWaters]
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It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.
Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
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SW,
I don't think you're defining Laissez Faire correctly.
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She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell. I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.
Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames
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#626520 - 10/07/10 05:58 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: Dan S.]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: Termite Country
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An economic system free from gov't influence, regulation, taxes, and price controls that adheres to the rule of law to protect private property and individual rights?
Please tell me where I may have butchered the definition in your eyes.
Definition of LAISSEZ-FAIRE
1: a doctrine opposing governmental interference in economic affairs beyond the minimum necessary* for the maintenance of peace and property rights
2: a philosophy or practice characterized by a usually deliberate abstention from direction or interference especially with individual freedom of choice and action
*emphasis mine
Are you saying we were operating within a laissez faire market structure prior to the latest collapse?
Please feel free to explain your definition.
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#626536 - 10/07/10 07:13 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: StinkingWaters]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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So you advocate corp collusion and monopolistic practices.
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#626547 - 10/07/10 07:41 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: stlhead]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: Termite Country
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Absolutely not, and neither does a laissez faire system.
Gov't does more to perpetuate monopolies now than a true free market system ever would. One need only look as far as the telecommunications, insurance, defense, agriculture, media, and banking industries (as well as many others) to come to that conclusion.
Entry into those markets are tougher than ever for budding entrepeneurs due to strictly enforced gov't regulation advocated by industry lobby groups.
Media alone has gone from being controled by 53 companies in 1981 down to 6 companies today. Thank the FCC. This is what we call free markets?
We live in a world of soft facsism, or corporate/gov't collusion.
Edited by StinkingWaters (10/07/10 07:43 PM)
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#626552 - 10/07/10 07:55 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: Jerry Garcia]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: Termite Country
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Why would they?
If they carry the note and you haven't missed a payment in years what's the need if they are simply reducing your overall obligation? No need to requalify at that point.
If you lost your job or your income has decreased they would only be doing you a favor and decreasing your statistical chance of default. If those things happened they'd be out anyway since they hold the paper.
Even though it might be prudent to check in on those things they are probably just trying to retain your good business and keep you from moving to a competitor.
If you're on a 30yr fixed note you should be getting lower than 5%.
More like 4.25%
Edited by StinkingWaters (10/07/10 07:57 PM)
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#626568 - 10/07/10 09:44 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: StinkingWaters]
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Poodle Smolt
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
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Yup Richard,
You should have no issue getting a rate of 4.0-4.5 depending if you wish to buy down your rate, or use a rebated fee to make it a zero out of pocket experience.
15 year fully amortized loans are even better. 3.5-3.8%.
What Wells is trying to do is keep a good performing loan on their books. If they lose you to another bank, they lose an earning asset.
If you are gainfully employed, you have a good credit score, and have limited revolving and other debt, refi now.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
They call me POODLE SMOLT!
The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.
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#626569 - 10/07/10 09:45 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: StinkingWaters]
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It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.
Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
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SW,
That was a fine definition of Laissez Faire economic policy.
It's your understanding of Laissez Faire economic policy that leaves something to be desired. Seriously, dude.........you think Laissez Faire economic policy is known to protect consumers from monopolies, predatory pricing, and other unsavory behavior?
Float that idea in Econ 102 after two weeks and even the freshmen will be clowning you.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell. I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.
Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames
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#626616 - 10/08/10 10:49 AM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: Dan S.]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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In his world all phone, cell, electricty and even internet access would be through AT&T. I'm sure they would charge a reasonable rate though.
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"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella
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#626641 - 10/08/10 01:48 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: Dan S.]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: Termite Country
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SW,
That was a fine definition of Laissez Faire economic policy.
It's your understanding of Laissez Faire economic policy that leaves something to be desired. Seriously, dude.........you think Laissez Faire economic policy is known to protect consumers from monopolies, predatory pricing, and other unsavory behavior?
Float that idea in Econ 102 after two weeks and even the freshmen will be clowning you. Well don't hold back Dan, being the scholarly gentleman that you are. Point to me a real life example of a non-coercive monopoly that harmed consumers in some way. I'll wear the clowning from the freshman as a badge of honor thank you. It's not as if I would give a flying fugazee about what a bunch of snot-nosed, know nothing, punk freshman taking Econ 102 at Evergreen State think about Austrian theory. One day when they're done tripping out in drum circles, smokin' cheeb with their burnout profs, and grow up and get real jobs. They will come to the realization that they wasted mommy and daddy's money on the state propaganda econ bull$hit that was fed to them when they were too naive to know any better. .........................and you still didn't answer my question about today's economy being laissez faire. Was the credit collapse a failure of the free market in your eyes? stlhd, you're in left field with your thumb in your a$$ as usual. Try to keep up here while the adults are having a conversation,.....or just keep to yourself if it's too far over your head. You embarrass yourself. 
Edited by StinkingWaters (10/08/10 01:51 PM)
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#626646 - 10/08/10 02:13 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: StinkingWaters]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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Play the game Stink...you wanted an example you got one...AT&T. I notice you ignored it though. Tell us all how leaving AT&T as a monopoly would have been to our benefit in the long run.
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"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella
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#626648 - 10/08/10 02:24 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: stlhead]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: Termite Country
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Read some history on how AT&T became a monopoly and then come back for some adult discussion.
Start with the Kingsbury Agreement and then move to the nationalization of the telecommunications industry in 1918 under the auspice of "national securuty".
Edited by StinkingWaters (10/08/10 02:25 PM)
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#626650 - 10/08/10 02:31 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: stlhead]
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It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.
Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
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SW,
I have a real job and a degree in economics. AND I know that you don't know a f'n thing about what Laissez Faire means in economic terms.
Don't be all angry that you don't know sh!t about economics, most people don't. They don't teach state propaganda in econ class. They teach what economic theory is, and discuss opposing theories, and use case studies to assist in understanding what happens when something like a Laissez Faire economic policy is implemented.
IMO, the bank failures were due in large part to a lack of PROPER government regulation. I don't think government regulation is a cure-all, either.
I'm not your economics professor. If you want to find out how monopolies hurt consumers, go crack a f'n book.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell. I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.
Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames
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#626651 - 10/08/10 02:43 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: Dan S.]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: Termite Country
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Read again.
I never asked you how monopolies hurt consumers. I asked you to provide a real life example of a monopoly that was created in laissez faire structure, without gov't help, that hurt consumers. Which you failed to do.
The fact is that if a company was able to achieve monopoly status by keeping their prices competitive and costs low they should be praised, not scorned. They wouldn't be hurting consumers in the least.
So in your mind we just needed to tinker with the system a little more. A few regs here, a few regs there, some money thrown over there, and everything would've been rosy. Gov't regulations and policies had nothing to do with contributing to the bubble. BS, and you know it.
We've regulated and centrally planned the economy for generations and yet we continually suffer bubble after bubble. Only to prolong the downturn by avoiding liquidation and rewarding those who made the mistakes. Epic fail.
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#626656 - 10/08/10 03:21 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: StinkingWaters]
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Poodle Smolt
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
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Only a few of the finanial reforms recently passed actually protect the consumer. Many of them actually act as a hinderance to lending.
Requiring banks to increase their capital to abnormally high minimums when they are healthy restricts the amount of money out on the street available to lend. Then, doing away with PMI, as much as of a pain as it is, restricts the amount of money banks can lend consumers on deflated home values, further restricting the amount of money available to lend to individual borrowers.
There are a couple of other cool thinks like disclosure issues where if the amount of fees disclosed in the good faith "estimate" aren't exactly what they will be at closing, you get to delay closing for an additional 2 weeks. So now the estimate has to be exact. Go figure. (Yes, I know there was some abuse, but not by everyone, but .GOV has to manage to the lowest common denominator, and the consumer they are trying to hel;p actually gets hurt.)
Basically, in this case, .GOV is being more of a hinderance to consumers because the politicians don't know what is in the legislation that they are passing.
I'm not getting into econ 101/102 class discussions. I'll let the other guys do that and just stick to the industry stuff.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
They call me POODLE SMOLT!
The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.
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#626657 - 10/08/10 03:34 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: Dogfish]
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It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.
Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
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if a company was able to achieve monopoly status by keeping their prices competitive and costs low they should be praised, not scorned  Yeah.............that's how companies achieve monopoly status.........with competitive prices and low costs. Certainly, they wouldn't resort to such tactics as selling below cost to sink their competition, or implementing predatory pricing once their monopoly was established. Heck, the whole Laissez Faire discussion is obviously a complete waste of time.................because you said so.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell. I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.
Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames
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#626665 - 10/08/10 03:54 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: Dan S.]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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Or gobble up patents. Or buy competitors just to close them. Yeah never happens. In Stinks world there would be a total of one corp.
Under Bush the fox was guarding the hen house in almost every industry. That's why we are where we are today.
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#626673 - 10/08/10 04:32 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: Dan S.]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: Termite Country
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if a company was able to achieve monopoly status by keeping their prices competitive and costs low they should be praised, not scorned  Yeah.............that's how companies achieve monopoly status.........with competitive prices and low costs. Certainly, they wouldn't resort to such tactics as selling below cost to sink their competition, or implementing predatory pricing once their monopoly was established. Heck, the whole Laissez Faire discussion is obviously a complete waste of time.................because you said so.  I like how you conveniently skirted the other arguments. Like providing a single example of a non-coercive, lasting monopoly. ,.........................and they certainly wouldn't resort to coerced legislative action, gov't forced mergers, or advocate for gov't price controls. Please. No company can sell below cost forever. Without barriers to entry, competitors can sell competively once they are forced to raise prices. The discussion isn't a waste of time at all, to the contrary. The discussion is more important now than it has been for generations. It's apparent you are the one who thinks the issue is settled.
Edited by StinkingWaters (10/08/10 04:39 PM)
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#626676 - 10/08/10 04:51 PM
Re: The Bank Bailouts
[Re: Dogfish]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: Termite Country
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Only a few of the finanial reforms recently passed actually protect the consumer. Many of them actually act as a hinderance to lending.
Requiring banks to increase their capital to abnormally high minimums when they are healthy restricts the amount of money out on the street available to lend. Then, doing away with PMI, as much as of a pain as it is, restricts the amount of money banks can lend consumers on deflated home values, further restricting the amount of money available to lend to individual borrowers.
There are a couple of other cool thinks like disclosure issues where if the amount of fees disclosed in the good faith "estimate" aren't exactly what they will be at closing, you get to delay closing for an additional 2 weeks. So now the estimate has to be exact. Go figure. (Yes, I know there was some abuse, but not by everyone, but .GOV has to manage to the lowest common denominator, and the consumer they are trying to hel;p actually gets hurt.)
Basically, in this case, .GOV is being more of a hinderance to consumers because the politicians don't know what is in the legislation that they are passing.
I'm not getting into econ 101/102 class discussions. I'll let the other guys do that and just stick to the industry stuff. I should note that I am not opposed to all gov't regulation. As you noted above the new rules concerning disclosure and transparency are nothing but good for both consumer and business alike. Protecting consumers from fraud is the gov'ts numero uno job in the economy, as a laissez faire system is designed to do. The gov'ts failure to do this job is what led to where we are today IMO.
Edited by StinkingWaters (10/08/10 04:56 PM)
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