Just redboxed this movie. It was pretty good. It will put things in perspective for anyone who doesn't know how messed up our educational system is.

Did you watch the movie? We know what needs to be done, and, in the end, it doesn't involve the lottery system. The lottery system, that the movie is describing, is just a product of creating equal opportunity for children to get into these new schools that are defying political and scocial class barriers. The lottery sytem shouldn't exist because all children should have the opportunity to obtain the education that the "reform schools" (good charter schools) are giving to the students. It's a bummer. The independent "reform schools" are blowing away those private schools in every aspect. It's not about poor kids getting into rich kid schools. Both parties are trying to fluff their way to an answer, while there are a few people who are actually making a difference. Taking a few lower class kids into private schools is just a very small bandaid on the big problem. As these new schools begin to defy the odds of educational standards, it's becoming more realistic to implement these programs into the public educational system.

I agree that the teachers union is inhibiting any potential reform, but what you described above is just another quick fix devised to make adults happy. It should be equal opportunity for the students, not the teachers. BOTH the teachers union and private eduaction are keeping that refrom happening. Letting a few poor kids into a private school primarily serves the purpose of comforting the republicans ego. Again, did you watch the movie?

KIPP schools:
http://www.kipp.org/about-kipp
These aren't the schools that the presidents kids are going to, but they are the schools that are having an 85% graduation rate. 85% of the students will go to college.

Interesting. My biggest gripe with public education is that it has become nothing (or not much) more than a glorified baby-sitting service that has evolved into a mind-numbing period of life, geared to remove any ambitions of those who have the ability to excel by paying a disproportionate time to slackers.
The Kipp link appears to be presenting a pretty demanding requirement of both teachers and students...a pleasant change.

There was a very good piece on a new D.C. charter school on 60 minutes Sunday evening. They pay teachers $125,000/year, no contract, no union, strictly a pay for performance standard with the principle having absolute authority, and if the students don't perform within 3 or 4 years, the principle is gone too. All the students seem to come from lower socio-economic strata - is there any other kind in D.C.? - and they are doing pretty well, but it takes time to turn this kind of tide.

Yeah! Spare the whip... spoil the child after all!

The bigger problem isnt public education ... its piss poor parenting. [/quote]

a lot parents look at school as free day care.

And theres your sign!

Big factor, Chuck! Curious how some cultures and families with supportive parents, a positive attitude about their schools and teachers, and a recognition that THEY and their school district are responsible for educating their children can find success within the public school system. In each public school there are great teachers, good teachers, average teachers, and possibly a couple of poor ones. A distribution of talent found in most professions, like it or not. While we may want it, we don't pay our teachers enough to have all of them be good and great ones. Teaching has rarely attracted the brightest and most creative candidates; other careers are more appealing. The figures presented as average teacher salaries must be skewed heavily by teacher turned district administrator numbers because even with twenty-seven years of experience and six years worth of college credits, my pay was always below the figure published as the average teacher salary. My wife's grandfather was on a small district school board. An oddity for sure, in that he didn't put much stock in education. He was complaining about the poor teachers in his district and how they weren't worth the money they were being paid. At that point, I asked him, "What would you have to do to get better ones?" He thought about it for a moment and responded, "I guess we would have to pay them MORE." As a teacher, I always enjoyed seeing the lightbulb of discovery go on.

Another factor is the ever present need to pass a school levy. Can't offend ANY patron of the district with real discipline, or a serious reality check of their child's behavior 'cause that will just lead to a NO vote next election. A case in point would be the Lacey mom who recently went ballistic because an elementary teacher used a single wrap of masking tape as a seat belt to remind a disruptive student to stay in his chair. If she had used twenty wraps of duct tape the mother's response would have been warranted. If she really felt the teacher's action fell outside the realm of creative discipline, there were so many ways she could have dealt with the situation other than turning it into a television news story. It has been said that behind every great man, there's a great woman. My own experience indicates that behind most messed up young men, there's a mom with her hair on fire!

+1 to Chuck and Ceders post.
How about a 5 or 6 year old child that enters kindergarten and cannot recognize letters or numbers? whose fault is that?

I have observed that most of the people that are anti public education are fairly ignorant and often spout regurgitated sound bites they have heard from Limbaugh and the like as there "facts".

Are public schools perfect? No, but charter schools are not the second coming of Jesus. If you do a little research you will find that the majority of charter schools do not outperform thier public counterparts, if fact it is quite the opposite.

+2. My kindergardener can already read me bedtime stories instead of the other way around......

Well guess what, all the kids that the twisted educational sytem has been pumping out, are becoming parents. There's a big difference between what sounds like a good idea, and what actualy works. If educational reform will take place through the parents, how do you suppose we impliment it? A dumb/drug addicted parent can't teach a kid stuff they don't know themselves, even if they wanted to.


There are crappy charter schools, but that doesn't take away from the fact that there are some that are doing things right. If you watched the movie, you'd know that the good charter schools are completely breaking free of all preconceived notions about education. These schools are taking kids from the ghetto and giving them a better education than many private schools could.

Red, yellow, black, white, from the ghetto or not, children are capable of learning. If a kid doesn't have the blessing of wonderful parents, should they not have the opportunity of a proper education?

I'm not saying it's bad to teach your kids, I think it rocks. I just don't want people to blame parents in order to escape a bigger problem. Giving your own child an education probably will be the best option vs. pumping them through the system. I think it's a travesty when parents would rather spend more time to themselves than make sure their kids get a propper ed.

i have seen studies that show that a child that enters kindergarten 6 months behind the other students will still be 6 months or more behind when they leave high school.

I watched this video on a website, for these sweet new charter schools, which have the kids complete two academic grade levels in a single school year.

Let me try this again.

Piss poor parenting most certainly IS at the root of the problem.....I agree. Getting parents to spend the necessary TIME with their kids is not always the priority it should be, IMO.

But here's the rub. Those parents who DO a great job raising respectful, well-disciplined, and socially outstanding children get punished by the public school system. Why? Because Johnny-Don't-Care requires too much time every day just to control. And there is no mechanism to remove Johnny from an otherwise great class. Result is no one gets to learn what would have been possible had Johnny not been there. Johnny's fault? NO! It's the damn parents, but regardless the outcome is the same. Only solution is to separate Johnny from those who want the challenge of learning and put the disruptor where his/her distractions don't affect others.
BTW, it's not the teacher's fault, either....as they are crippled by a system which is impossible to beat. They can't teach and move on until Johnny "gets it". And the result is everyone else in class really "gets it".

So the problem, IMO is the "SYSTEM"
We need to give up the idea of saving them all.

So fast track the smart kids, and send the the dumb ones to other schools or different programs? Well the problem with that, is when the children are compared to standards set by the state, the majority of the children don't meet those standards, so the "smart kids" are being fast tracked which usualy isn't many because the kids aren't educated to begin with. I hate to break it to you but that method is already taking place in many schools across the nation, and I don't see 60 min boasting about it's success.

The teachers that are doing a crappy job are getting paid just as much as the good ones. It is also next to impossible to fire a teacher based on performance, and even then, they will just go to another district. Why impliment a program like that when, like I've said before, we have difinitive evidence that most kids are just as capable of learning as their peers and that this problem is mostly the teachers fault. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but those kipp schools are taking random kids out of the ghetto and putting them through college. They don't choose the "smart" ones.

You guys need to watch the freaking movie. They specificaly talk about that "fast track" for smart kids, and how it sucks.

The difference between Kipp and public school, as I understand it, is that the Kipp program "Demands" performance. Seems simple enough to me. How is that not fast tracking? You fail to perform, you're gone. What mechanism does public education have to compare with that?

You talk of opportunity for all. Hell yes!! But it's a horse-to-water scenario. No drink once. OK. No drink twice OK. No drink thrice....get out of here.
Results are proportionate to effort and "I don't care" is the end of the line.

It's demanding performance from all the students. I don't know, are they kicking out the dumb ones? I did look at it a little more, they are treating the school like it's a privilage for both the student and the parent to have the child go there.


Parents'/Guardians' Commitment
•We will make sure our child arrives at KIPP every day by 7:25 a.m. (Monday-Friday) or boards a KIPP bus at the scheduled time.

•We will always help our child in the best way we know how and we will do whatever it takes for him/her to learn. This also means that we will check our child's homework every night, let him/her call the teacher if there is a problem with the homework, and try to read with him/her every night.

•We will always make ourselves available to our children and the school, and address any concerns they might have. This also means that if our child is going to miss school, we will notify the teacher as soon as possible, and we will carefully read any and all papers that the school sends home to us.



hmmm, I'm not sure, the site is a little fluffed up. But check this out:

By choosing KIPP, students make a commitment to excellence with themselves, their parents, teachers, and fellow students. KIPPsters (what we call our students) believe that there are no shortcuts and no excuses. KIPPsters love KIPP because they know that their parents, teachers, school leaders, and classmates are all working together to help them reach their full potential.
At KIPP, we use the motto 'team beats individual.' Being a KIPPster means being a part of a team and family within your school and also within the overall KIPP network of schools. KIPPsters have a host of resources available to them to help them reach the top, including dedicated teachers available after hours via cell phone, high school and college placement counselors, alumni support services, extended school days, Saturday school, class field trips, and many extracurriculars.

They are just doing everything right.

I agree totally.

It was a great documentary on education. Not much will change unless more people watch it.

Yikes! My wife said she just heard on the news that some parent is suing a PRE-SCHOOL for not educating the daughter adequately to get through college! Seems some parents SHOULDN'T participate in their kid's education.