Thank God for Gregoire. Whew those Republicans almost came up with a decent solution to the financial crisis we have but good ol G dog stepped up and save the State for almost angering the Tribes.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016943073_gambling06m.html

She also said if she had her way there wouldn't be any casinos on or off reservations.

Maybe we should turn Harstine Island into the states major gambling destination? Myself I think the business is a sleazy one that the state should do it's best to keep out.

I enjoy driving across Washington, to visit my parents in Port Townsend, for two reasons:

There's no billboards and every gas station and convenience store is not a casino. In Montana, for all the beauty we have, we deface it with billboards everywhere, and every convenience store is a casino.

I would much rather have seven casinos in the whole state, on seven reservations, than the proliferation we have now. You really don't want to do this.....

The Gov being the Gov and her position being the state should not be in gambling. Now one more time the chorus. " What are the state lotteries? "

Hmmm, but she has no problem with taxing the hell out of people with addiction to tobacco, and then subsidizing the addiction of many of those very same people with welfare and food stamps.

Note: While the EBT Card will not buy alcohol or tobacco products, it does allow more of a person's personal income to be used for those purposes.

We feed you and your kids...so you can make bad choices to slowly kill yourself and provide the state with tax revenue. Then the (in some cases) viscous circle continues...

Last I checked the state doesn't run a single casino.

They run the lottery, and scratch tickets, and so on......

Gregoire also protects the monopoly held by Tribes on gaming.

Make the cost of a gaming license high, with high annual renewal fees. That would limit the number of entrants into the pool. Tax the crap out of it.

Seems so simple to me. Tribes, you want exclusivity, we want revenue from you. No revenue, no exclusivity. Estimate the expected revenue, account for assumed social costs, present the number to the tribes and let them say yes or no. Proposal for 5 years, then renewed or altered.

So you propose giving the lottery to the tribes?

Some think no matter how low the tribes stupe for dollars that we should follow. I'm one who thinks the tribes should have never been allowed casinos nation wide but if they want to "do whatever they want because they are sovern" then we should have banned non-tribal members form giving them tax free dollars. There wouild be no tribal casinos if that were the case.

Monkey see Monkey do. Hell the tribes have been trained by white
eyes. They are just doing what they have learned by observation
of our antics.

"Woulda coulda shoulda isn't the reality we have to deal with."

Can do it now. Block non-tribal access to the reservations. In the past we've busted non-tribals for buying fireworks, non-taxed smokes and non-taxed booze. Why not gaming without paying a state tax? Your reality has us sinking to their level. I have yet to see a neighborhood enhanced by a casino.

The state is getting out of the liquour business the morality being one of the factors.

I'd like to see how the Tribes respond to a blockade. I don't see that as being realistic. You really want another "wounded knee" incident, would you? Nothing written in any treaty or compact were they ever guaranteed any sort of monopoly on gaming.

Having actually reviewed Tribal financials for numerous Tribes, over 10, I can tell you without a doubt that these casinios are cash cows.

If anything, deregulating casino gaming, but keeping the entry point for licenses high ($1 mil or better) would be a shot across the bow of the Tribes, essentially making them come back to the table and talk revenue sharing. They would rather give a portion of their revenues away than allow entry of other competition. They love monopolies.

When the State stopped allowing smoking in non-tribal casinos in December 2005, the tribes jumped for joy, because they have special rules. As a result the bulk of non-tribal casinos shut their doors.

Instead of dealing with the Tribes as a business, which they really are now through their enterprise boards, Gregoire has fallen all over herself to give away the store, without any real attempt at negotiating. She loves monopolies as well.

Seems like a pretty easy source of "Revenue" for the State.

How about we remove the law imposed by the Evil Margarita "Let Them Pump Gas" Prentice making online poker a felony. That law caused no end of grief for what should be a money making machine for the State.

Soon enough the Feds are going to come to their senses and regulate Online Poker. We need the State of Wa to be prepared to get on the cash train.

POKER IS NOT A CRIME!

Not really...they can't be busted unless they take it off the reservation...a very, very large and significant difference.

Fish on...

Todd

And..."winners" should still be paying taxes on their winnings, as income...it's the tribes that get 99% of the money, and where it would be useful to get the tax money out of

Fish on...

Todd

Why not get the best of both worlds (revenue and not having every store in state turned into a casino)... We need someone to wave a gun at the tribes...

"We want a tax on your casino revenues... If you won't agree to the tax, we'll open up gaming state-wide and get it that way *and* you'll lose your investments in all your fancy casinos".

B

Right now the tribes support the current Administration, who wouldn't do that to them...and if the current Administration said they would do it, the tribes would turn right around and give it to the other party, who would immediately do a 180 degree switch on supporting the tribes' casinos and gambling.

Fish on...

Todd

Let's use the same logic to stop gill netting. The state will allow full out gill netting to get the tribes to cave.

What is your realistic suggestion? Mine is at least realistic.

Also, there are already other competitors in that market, gillnetting, so there is no monopoly.

Todd,

Taxes are only paid if on one spin you win over 1200 or 1300. But if you have 10 spins of 1000, you win. 10k tax free

I made a realistic suggestion. Stay out of casino gambling and all of the bad crap it brings. I see no reason we should feel if you can't beat them then join them.

Revenue that never was isn't really lost is it? Before the Vegas style casinos there were small non tribal card rooms. The big dollars didn't hit until slot machines. If you remember the state was intercepting shipments of slot machines headed for reservations long before Gregoire. And after the tribes were allowed slots we voted and said no to non tribal slots.

Here is a good read as to why the governor you love to hate can't do a damned thing about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Gaming_Regulatory_Act

Gregoire gave away the opportunity t receive revenue from the Tribes time and again on their operations.

You suggestion would accomplish nothing. Mine would make them stand up, and take notice.

The card rooms were essentially done away with by the smoking ban. Sure, there are a few that survived, but for the most part these non-tribal card rooms closed due to the smoking ban, which the Tribes didn't have to abide by.

I know Tribes much better than most folks do. I've done business with them directly, and negotiated with them directly, for 15+ years. Playing soft does nothing.

I'd like to see the state go all in on non tribal gambling.

Awesome idea.

And the budget woes are gone...............

Why should churches be limited to Bingo? The answer to empty state coffers and declining church attendance could be Kitty Glitter, Wolf Run and Coyote Moon. Give the Tribal casinos some competition... maybe they'll improve their food service, increase their payouts, and get some entertainment besides those "Catch a Falling Star" types.

+1,000

It doesn't matter if there is a D, R or I next to the name.....politicians are ALL a bunch of soulless greedy scumbags who will sell their own mother for votes, cash and power.

So the smoking ban killed off the small fry. The smoking ban will still be in place so explain to me how they are going to draw people away from tribal casinos or why tribal casinos should feel threatened.

"Non tribal slots would not "create" new gamblers, it would only take them away from tribal casinos."

HOW?

Somebody is trying to be creative and it isn't me. What will drive existing gamblers away from where they gamble now? Cheaper gambling? Better payouts? What's your plan? You haven't got one. It's a pipe dream.

Convenience. Pretty simple. People need to drive long distances to get to casinos will then have other options closer to home.



Was this a joke or just a poor attempt to make some besides yourself look stupid.




Use it as a bargaining chip to get what we want. This would bring the tribes to the table. The last thing they want is to loose this monopoly. We could talk revenue with those tribes or as I would have liked to see many years ago, work on the fish and game #'s. They would likely take a little less of the resource rather than give up the casino $'s. It is all about money anyway. The way it is now we take it in the back door on each front. About time to push back a little.

I'm far from a staunch moralist, but it's a sad state of affairs indeed when our best available solution to financial problems is to seek new ways to prey on the weaknesses of human nature to squeeze more blood out of a parched turnip.

For all I have seen, gambling (like any other profitable "sin") does far more damage to a society than can ever be justified by whatever revenues it creates. It is a detriment to everyone except the business owners, the politicians they pay to make their rape of society legal, the employees of gambling establishments (to a far lesser extent than the two prior groups), and the tiny contingent of individuals who manage to beat the odds and profit from gambling.

I know, I know, nobody is forcing people to go to tribal casinos and gamble, and nobody would force people to gamble at non-tribal gaming sites either. By the same token, nobody is forcing people to drink, smoke, (list your favorite sins here). The trouble is that the purveyors of these products realize all too well how easy it is to sway most people to the dark side of a freewill decision.

Of course, our state of affairs is what it is, and I recognize that nobody is supporting non-tribal gaming in the name of morality. At present, it might be a good revenue booster, but I think it will do more damage than good in the long run.

More and more, I think the State should get its revenue from an income tax and get away from the tax system that is predicated on consumer spending. For reasons I don't understand, I don't find a lot of citizens who agree with me on that. I suspect one reason the government doesn't agree with that is that it would make it much more difficult for them to cater to special interests in situations where doing so requires manipulation of revenue sources to make concessions appear possible within the State's budget. I also suppose that income taxes wouldn't allow the government to collect revenue from the unemployed and otherwise impoverished the way sales taxes and service fees do.

First of all, my post was not based on what I believe to be reality. I was mainly expressing my concern over the long term effects of our society's ongoing proliferation of ways to profit from humanity's inherent weaknesses. That said, you may be right, but I'll take a shot at explaining myself.

Why do you suppose you are inundated, everywhere you go and even at home, with advertisements for products and services? I believe it's because businesses figured out a long time ago that marketing is an investment that generally pays off. I'm no MBA, but I understand one of the principles of marketing to be that increased availability of a product in the marketplace will increase sales of that product. The power of the "impulse buy" is a significant driver in the way things are marketed. Just look at what you see around you while you wait in line to check out at the grocery store: a bunch of stuff that you pass by in the aisles while gathering the items on your shopping list (assuming you were frugal enough to make a shopping list, without which you would likely make many more impulse buys) but are likely to appeal to our tendency to indulge ourselves with treats. It's right there in front of you, so unless you don't like it or consciously decide to avoid it, you are likely to throw it on the checkstand. The same should apply to gambling. As docspud pointed out, the convenience of having more locations where gambling is available will convince more people that they ought to go ahead and give it a try. It's a lot like trying recreational drugs. Most of those people will not gamble any more than they play the lottery, for example, but by the numbers, some will become habitual gamblers, more of which are not conducive to a productive, responsible society.

There is also a certain component of the non-tribal population that outright refuses to set foot in a tribal casino yet travels to Reno or Las Vegas on a regular basis to get a gambling fix. With non-tribal options available locally, many of those folks would seem likely to fall prey to the gambling bug with dangerous frequency as well.

Right or wrong, I think widespread gambling, while it has great potential to produce revenues, would prove detrimental to society in the long run.

FleaFlicker I can't see where an income tax would be better. In a down turned economy such as we have now people are losing jobs and seeing a reduction in income. The state would still lose its income no matter which way we were taxed. I'm not hearing that things are better in income tax states now. I think most Washingtonians feel as I do in that if we tried to go to an income tax we would never get rid of the sales tax. We would just be getting hosed from two different directions.

"Convenience. Pretty simple. People need to drive long distances to get to casinos will then have other options closer to home. "

So you advocate a casino in every neighborhood? I'm sure most of us here would be nimby's.

"Was this a joke or just a poor attempt to make some besides yourself look stupid. "

It was meant to draw you out and make you look stupid. Success.

"Use it as a bargaining chip to get what we want."

I haven't heard a single thing that would scare the tribes one bit.

"All your questions have already been answered several times and you just refuse to accept them."

You think pipe dreams are answers. They must be magic slot machines. Build it and they will come.

"FleaFlicker I can't see where an income tax would be better. "

It's a lot harder to avoid paying an income tax than a sales tax. Right now those who live near our borders avoid a large amount of sales tax by shopping across the border.

Disagree. I see very little upside. It will not fix our budget woes nor put much if any pressure on the tribes, has a huge potential down side in regards to the negatives of gambling and organized crime and expands further our need for a larger gaming commission to monitor the whole mess and keep out organized crime. Plus there's just nothing we can offer that is better than the tribes even down to the freedom to smoke. However, I would be willing to experiment having Harstine Island as a big casino destination.

Once again, donno, my post was not based entirely on how I perceive reality, but more on the way I wish things could be. I agree that states with income taxes probably aren't faring markedly better right now. I suspect that at least some of that may be due to increased unemployment and decreasing wages affecting those states the same way they are affecting ours. It seems a bad economy is bad for everyone.

I understand that an income tax is not any better for our individual bottom lines than sales taxes, etc. It's just a different way of getting what should be a similar amount of money from us. The main reason I favor an income tax over our current system is that it makes the amount of revenue the State will have for budgeting much more predictable, leaving less margin for revenue forecasting error, which I believe has contributed significantly to our state's budget crisis. It also should give the citizens a solid number (that can't be "adjusted") to look at when comparing what should be available to what is being budgeted, thereby making the budgeting process more accountable and transparent.

Finally, just to reiterate, the ONLY scenario in which I favor a state income tax is one in which all sales taxes are repealed. Whether or not that's likely to happen is a different matter, and your pessimism to that end may be spot on. I am starting to think our Legislature favors the taxes on consumer spending and fees because they make it easier to manipulate the budget in their favor based on proposals to increase revenues. It's easy to create revenue on paper, just like it's easy to create paper fish.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Certainly, there is no shortage of opportunity in our state at present, but creating more opportunity will almost certainly make gambling more convenient for more people.



I am aware that we have reached a point of no return on tribal gambling. Indeed, that horse seems to have left the barn. I don't believe, however, that means we need to engage the tribes in a battle to see who can do the most damage to non-tribal society. They are kicking our a$$es on that front right now, and I would personally like to keep it that way. I find the notion that we might as well jump on the bandwagon and trade more of whatever is left of our decency for a temporary revenue fix more than a bit troubling.



Again, we'll have to agree to disagree, except that I will admit to not having a solid example to prove my point. I'm sure it's out there, but I don't have the time or will to research it.

I know a couple of those as well. Admittedly, this was not one of my better arguing points.

I wouldn't set foot in a tribal casino to gamble.

I also wouldn't set foot in a non-tribal casino, anywhere, including Reno, Atlantic City, or Vegas.

Gambling in casinos might be one of the most stupid things...ever.

Fish on...

Todd

Agree.....and the dumb fuks that play the state Lottery.

A wise man once told me that the best way to understand the lottery is to consider that your odds of winning are almost exactly the same if you play or not.

The TV ads for the casinos always show all these fabulous, well-dressed wealthy - looking model dudes with hot chicks in lowcut gowns gambling, dancing and partying like they are in the casino at the Bellagio in Las Vegas...........

Stop in for a beer sometime and you will see nothing but stinky losers sporting wifebeaters, mullets, greasy trucker caps (and those are the women) and many missing teeth....and you will likely see some punches thrown on the dance floor if you're lucky.....

False advertising ya think?

nah?

I think it is ironic that the Law Givers believe they can modify the
human existence thru legislation. Gambling, Prostitution, recreational
chemicals, porn and what all have been around forever. Folks are
really just arguing about who gets a piece of the action.
I can't believe the taxaholics in Olympia are letting a live one get
away. Referring to the tribes.

Law Giver, isn't that what Hammurabi called himself? Todd prolly
knows.

Mingo< I would like to suggest that you actully walk into most any casino around here. You would be hard pressed to find anything like you described. Fights? I can't think of anywhere that there is more security.

Mostly when I go in to a casino I am heading strait for the cardroom. There you will find a very diverse crowd, from young to old. Some may occaisonaly drink, but for the most part when you are playing for $100 - 1000 you want to stay focused.

I think the truth is somewhere close to right in the middle between the sparkly happy crew and the wife beaters you describe.

Gutz, I'm sure your local cardroom is much better than what I saw, I admit my last two stop-ins for a beer were up north at the Tulalip Casino after hitting the Skagit and Sauk. I was only out in the area around the slots....and you are right about the security, they snowshoveled that brief fight up so quick it was amazing. I didn't see anyone close to TV-ad sparkly (us included, we were pretty beat from fishing all day) and my buddy and I were laughing about it the last time.....this looked like a Jonas family reunion.............but damn people were playing those slots nonstop. I'm not a gambler so I can't relate.

"State records show tribal casinos had an estimated $1.95 billion in net receipts in fiscal year 2011, up from $1.57 billion in 2009." Seattle Times Dec,5th,2011

How about 1% tax on the tribes on the net? Wait......

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Tribes-give-big-to-Gregoire-avoid-sharing-casino-1276446.php

Sumbitch

It is just crazy to think we have a 2 billion dollar industry going tax free.

Carry on!

"It is just crazy to think we have a 2 billion dollar industry going tax free."

We don't have an industry. The tribes do. And they aren't required and can't be made to pay taxes so they don't.

agreed we don't, Her small personal gain cost the State a stream of income.

More like a river.

Or you could think of it another way in that it WOULD HAVE cost the state plenty.

"It was almost like triggering a gambling arms race in the state," he said. "What would occur under the revenue sharing is that it would have led to an almost unlimited expansion of gambling -- unlimited tables, unlimited betting -- and that is something that the governor wanted to avoid."

Other states provide a model of what happens when tribal casinos enter into revenue sharing arrangements, Edwards said.

"It opens up a Pandora's box on gambling and where does it stop?" Edwards said.

Gregoire was protecting the state's interest, he said.

Some seem to want all out gambling state wide. Not me and not near me. I might be willing to let Auburn become the states gambling mecca though. Let the moral decay begin.....and lower housing values, prostitution, etc etc. All yours.

Gamblers are a finite resource, like junkies. More cardrooms or more slot machines in any geographic location will not increase the amount of gamblers.

You're dealing with a cultural subset with a mental disability that prevents them from using common sense logic and basic mathematics.
Is is morally wrong to take advantage of them?
With online poker, where the other 'players' are just auto-response software scripts and the deal is a pre-ordained scam, like computerized "slots" yes it is. But with table games, where the true odds are posted on signs that say

"every $1 you win, you will lose $37, (37:1) but we only pay a 1:19 ratio to increase our margin even further*"

The chump--umm I mean gambler--knows exactly WTF she's getting herself into from the get go but throws away her paycheck anyway.

Up here it seems OK when Vegas or Atlantic City or Sleazy Pete's in SeaTac does it, but when those Salmon-stealin' Injuns do it, it's a crime against humanity.

I think people should have the right to throw their money away anywhere they feel the need. No one is holding a gun to their heads.

I also think it is a joke that one segment of the population, that happens to be the tribes, getting a sweetheart deal from our govern after nice camp donations. It should make no difference if it was a corporation or the tribes....a payoff is a payoff.

The saddest part is the screaming we would hear if some Rep did this with a corporate spons. Bestbuy would be out of replacement keyboards as they would be burning up in mothers basements across the state. Instead we hear silence except the few who try to justify it by pulling the old RWWJ standby.....the moral highground.

Absolutly false. Poker is a game of skill. Those who are more proficient at analyzing hands using basic (not quite) math win more. Ever notice how the same poker players tend to end up at the final table?

As far as auto-response software, the sites do everything they can to identify these accounts and ban them, seizing thier accounts and redistributing the proceeds to those they have cheated.

Pre ordained? Who do you think that would benefit. The sites are money making machines. Time to legalize on line Poker and reap the benefits.

Benefits? Start with Taxation and then throw in all of the jobs that are currently offshore.

POKER IS NOT A CRIME!

Last time I was in Las Vegas(woodworking machinery show) I didn't gamble a penny.I was standing by a roulette table and from my vantage point I could see at least a couple thousand people gambling and then I spied the payout window---- one person in line.

So, you observed all of those thousand's of people lose all of thier money?

Most people set limits as to how much they are willing to lose. Playing slots or most table games you should probably think of it as a form of entertainment. How much would you spend to ski, or golf, or go to a concert?

Many people think of Poker as a business. They are very careful to play within thier means. It is callled "Bankroll Management"

Liquor in the front.

Poker in the rear.

"Many people think of Poker as a business."

Yeah and 99% are dirtbags living on the edge, divorced or soon to be divorced and their kids suffer the highs and lows. I'm thinking you haven't really seen a true addicted gambler. It's a sad sight.

Sorry AM but sport fishing there's no hoped for financial win fall. If you want to compare think of an idiot who thinks he's going to break the state record every time out and is willing to spend his house payment or the money to feed his kids on it.

Docspud, you just don't seem to get that the tribes are a foreign entity and not bound by our laws.

The ones who think "Many people think of Poker as a business." do.

Using your idiotic logic then pretty much anything you do or spend, is a gamble and justifies wholesale casinos statewide. Buy a new car? Gamble. New shoes? Gamble. Life is a gamble but in no way justifies Casino gambling. Play Russian Roulette if you want the ultimate gambling experience.

Reality isn't your strong suit.

Fishing is never a gamble, because you always win...you get to go fishing.

Fish on...

Todd

gutz headsup 4 rollz?

I thought as a Republican you enjoyed the thought of people making their own decisions.

If people want to gamble, be it at tribal casinos, it's THEIR FUKING CHOICE. I thought freedom of choice was a T-bagger-embraced theory.

Oh wait... it involves injuns. Nevermind.

Another whack job makes himself known.

First person that's ever accused me of being a Republican and in the context it makes even less sense.

Yes it is peoples own choice but we as a state and as a people don't have to go gang busters with state wide casinos to appease them. Very weird logic going on here. Maybe it's the holidays and your brain cells are maxed out?

And if you think you are going to make a living playing poker then I'll sit on the side lines and bet against you. Odds are with me and odds are you will be a loser in many ways. Too bad when the odds catch up to you that we the people have to pick up the tab for you and your family.

What I observered is thousands of people gambling and one person at the payout window

stlhead, I am not attempting to make a living at Poker. I just enjoy playing. And I play pretty much everyday, generally while I am on Dialysis here at my desk. I am playing for very low stakes. The last time I funded my account was in April. I put in a $100 bucks and have played literally hundreds of hours since then. At current I am pretty much staying even. Pretty good entertainment value, if you ask me.

Just like many people here (well, maybe not here)and through out the World, I have a bucket list. One of those items would be to play in a $1500 Omaha 8 or better tournament at the World Series of Poker. Perhaps this year if I can work hard enough or perhaps win enough to make it to Vegas.

Know what Santa Clauses favorite Poker Hand is?

Jerry; No doubt Slots are not a winning proposition. Black Jack can be profitable with great study and discipline.

Three Queens.

















HO!HO!HO!