you have GOT to be kidding me

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46729054/ns/us_news-environment/

can kill a B.E.

but still can't kill a sea lion.

lord how i love this goverment.

I hope the Eagles come back in another life and kill the Indians kids.

The permit is to kill 2 eagles.......BFD. They should probably just find two electrocuted or car struck birds and quit with this.

big deal? why not just use a chicken for religious purposes then? or what about a crow? why the National bird? Natives always have eagles on their totem poles, as if they are a great being or such... why kill them?

you would think that the Natives would be the front runners for protecting those birds, but no, they want to say that the US is impeding their religious rights, by not allowing them to take them...

whats next?

Why kill them? Well, you should ask them...it is, after all, their religious practices that they've been doing for many thousands of years before there were white men, the USA, or a "national bird".

I don't like it, but I don't like a lot of things that people do.

Fish on...

Todd

I'm not promoting the idea, redhook.....just saying that it is no big deal. It's a permitted use for two birds.....that's all. Why it is necessary to kill two live birds is a little beyond reason, IMO.....but the bird is not endangered and I'm reasonably sure the eagle had religious significance to the Tribe before it became our emblem. Once again.....why kill a living bird?......fkd if i know

it starts with 2, and ends up with 200... how many other tribes will follow this ritual now? the Natives are living far far better now, than they did when we werent here, yet they complain about it...

without us "the white man", they wouldnt have casinos, where they serve netted fish at, and take your money... they wouldnt have cars to drive around, they wouldnt have gas to operate their boats to net the fish... the wouldnt have boats period.. if it wasnt for the white man, they would still be cold, and doing things the old way...

im in no way bashing the religious beliefs of another human being, but if the bible told me to go kill a bunch of spotted owls to ward of bad weather, i would restrict myself from doing so...

to me the article seems like they are using the same "you guys screw us, and have screwed us" jargon that they always use, and honestly, it gets old...

If you believe that then our educational system is even more of a failure than I thought. They were doing just fine before we got here...not that it has anything to do with this conversation much, anyway.

Fish on...

Todd

what i meant Todd, is that they have everything they could ever want.. without us, they would just have dirt, fish, and themselves..

this also isnt 500+ years ago, so where would they be if we werent here?

The stupidity of superstition knows no end.

At least they modernized their practice and used a gun, the Gods must be proud.

Hard to fault the Indians for silly religious beliefs. They are in good company.

So, you think the Native Americans were backwards and impoverished before us whites came and saved them?

I can't even respond to something that ridiculous and ignorant...and take my comment about our educational system failures and give it a "10x"...thanks.

Fish on...

Todd

if you insist... i have this book, its called Sprits, Heros, and Hunters, from North American Mythology.. yes, you can say its false as its mythical, but this books stories are from 26 tribes representing ALL the main North AMerican Indian groups, and they are still remembered and respected...

what i will do, is type the last 2 pages of a chapter, involving the Eagle, i will type it correctly, and punctually as the book writes it... so your welcome...

Native Americans given the opportunity to kill 2 eagles for religious reasons is not a reason to give a [Bleeeeep!]- to give whities a opprotunity to kill native steelhead - then giv a [Bleeeeep!].

Casinos? Go there when you don't see the millions the put into a community for all even whities -think of the youth the handicapped and the elders for all.

The young man replied, 'I found the Eagle asleep in a tree. I crept up on him and tried to catch him, but he was too quick for me.
Nevertheless, I managed to pull out one of his tail feathers. Look!' Ande he held up the large glossy feather.
Kyehe was horrified, for the Eagle was chief of all bird, haughty, and proud, and one who would not easilly brook such an insult.
'What have you done, you supid boy? 'you have put us in very grave danger!
the old man rushed to the door of the lodge and looked up at the sky. In the distance he saw Eagle winging his way swiftly towards him.
He ran back inside and shouted to his nephew, 'Make haste! Hang the feather up in the smoke-hole. Perhaps when Eagle sees it there, he will take it away without causing any trouble.'
Trembling, they crouched in a corner of the lodge. They heard the wing-beats come closer and closer, until at last they knew that the Eagle must be hovering directly over the smoke-hole.
There was a long terrible silence and they scarcely dared to breathe. Then they heard Eagle fly away. They looked up. The fearther still hung in the smoke-hole.
The young mand sighed with relief and said, 'He has gone without taking the feather. We are safe now,' but his uncle groaned, 'No, this makes it all the worse, for he means to punish us. The danger is even greater now. We must call a council.'
Not all the animals were invited to the council. The strong and powerful animals, Bear and Wolf, and the fleet-footed, like Deer, were turned away for Kyehe told them, ' You have no need to fear Eagle. Only those who, like ourselves, are weak and slow, are in danger. '
Thus is was the creatures who had most to fear, like Otter, Skunk, Porcupine, and Turtle, who formed the council. Kyehe told them what had happened, and warned them that Eagle would return for his revenge bringing his friends Hawk, and Owl, and all the other birds of prey. Each of the council members described what they would do to defend themselves when the attack came.


not finished yet, but will be done shortly....

Joe cast a spoon into the most beautiful drift and the boat abided his working of the spoon fluttering into the deep green waters of the Hoh .. Then the line stopped and Joe thinking hung on the bottom pulls back-but the line resists and pulls upriver -30 minutes later they bonk a 32 lb native steelhead. They high five and drink a beer and take a piss on the bank of the hallowed waters that have given them the fish of their life-

Kyehe's nephew said, 'I will throw stones at them and drive them off! '
Skunk said, 'I will spray my scent at them and tear their eyes out!'
Porcupine said, 'I will run my quills through them if the come near me!'
Only Turtle said nothing. He just sat and looked about him, blinking sleepily, as turtles do.
While they were discussing their courses of action, Eagle and his friends appeared in the sky overhead. Imeadiately everyone forgot his brave resolve and fled towards a tall tree growing nearby, each scrambling over the other in his haste to reach the uppermost branches.
Once more Eagle swooped down on Kyehe's lodge, and hovered over the smoke-hole. The feather was no longer there!
Then animals looked round in suprise, and saw that, in the confusion, Turtle had carried it away! They watched Turtle plodding off through the woods with Eagle's feather clamped firmly in his jaws, and felt very frightened.
'We must try to stop him 'they gasped. 'He will put us all in danger.'
Porcupine climbed down from the tree and ran after Turtle. 'Stop! Stop!' he shouted. 'You must return the feather to the Eagle!' But Turtle kept on walking.
Porcupine was in a great quandary. 'Since he will not give back the feather, I had better hel him, 'he thought and he clambered onto Turtle's back to try to shield him from Eagle's view.
As they traveled along in this way, Porcupine scattered ashes in an attempt to conceal Turtle's tracks. Unfortunately, the asheshad quite the oppostite effect, only serving to make the tracks more conspicuous. Eagle and his friends had no difficulty at all in following Turtle and they soon caught up with him. Porcupine, fearing for his own safety, jumped off and beat a hasy retreat.
Seeing that he was surrounded, Turtle tucked the feather inside his shell, and drew in his head and legs. The birds began to beat him with sticks, but that, of course, had no effect on Turtles shell, so they decided to devise some other means of punnishment.
Gathering some dry leaves, and twigs, the built a fire and threw Turtle into it, but Turtle pretended that it was all a game to him, and laughed and rolled around in the flames as if he were enjoying himself tremendously.
Eagle was beside himself with rage. 'Since fire does not worry you,' he shouted, 'we will throw you in the river instead!'


almost done... half a page left..

-Either our country is full of shitt
or
-A select few are full of shitt

See if I can get this one right- if not I will do my best.

Yakov fresh off the boat from Russia meets his friend Smirnoff they are going fishing on the Skagit River -it's March and no one is on the river. Smirnoff has learned how to plunk and they set up on the Potatoe Bar-lines are out and they sit and reminisce of days in the ole land-then Yakov's lines is dingn and rippin -30 minutes later there is a dead Nate steelhead at their feet and they drink more vod. They love America . Here comes the fish and game explaining this is against the law and Yakov and Smirnofff do not understand a word

At this, Turtle pretended to be very frightened. 'Oh no!' he shrieked. 'Not the river! Do anything else you will, but please, please do not throw me into the river!'
The birds dragged Turtle, struggling wildly and pleading for mercy, down to the river bank, and dropped him in the water. Turtle floundered about, howling as if in terror. Then he sank to the bottom like a ston and lay still.
Eagle and his friends, convinced that they at least put an end to this troublesome creature, flew away in great satisfaction.
No sooner had they gone, than Turtle swam across the river, and haled himself onto a log lying by the opposite bank. He pulled Eagle's feather from his shell and, waving it aloft, shouted, 'Kihe! Kihe!' which is the cry of a warrior who had defeated his enemies.
The animals hiding in the tree heard Turtle's cry of triumph and rushed down to the river to see what it meant. They were aghast to see that Turtle still had possession of the feather.
'We mus make him return it, 'said Otter.
'Who will go and take it from him? Porcupine, you go."
'Oh no, not I !' snorted Porcupine. 'I have put myself in enough danger already. Let Skunk go!' 'I cannot go!' said Skunk indignantly. 'I might drown. Otter is the best swimmer.
Otter was persuaded and swam across the river, to where Turtle sat, proudly flourishing Eagle's feather. As Otter climbed onto the log, Turtle dropped into the water and dived underneath. He came up on the other side of the log, and bit Otter's dangling tail hard. Otter yelped in pain, and jumping back into the water, swam as fast as he could to the safety of the bank.
After this, none of the animals dared to challenge Turtle and the Eagle feather remained in his possesion ever afterwards as a token of his superiority over all the animals and birds. To this day, the Indians claim, the turtle cannot be overpowered by anyone...


there, done... what that says to me, is that turtles are one bad mofos, and that Indians/Natives, respected, and feared Eagles... now, if this was just some stupid book, i could understand the sillyness of it... but its backed by all tribes, and respected by each and every single one of em...

The tribe is expecting their permit to get renewed every year. What a joke.

If the Makah's get another permit for whale, I'm heading up there for a taste. As far as eagles are concerned, there are plenty, just like there are plenty of whales. Neither is endangered, both have recovered, and limited harvest should not pose any issue.

Given the opportunity to shoot an eagle, I wouldn't do it.

Given the opportunity to plunge the harpoon into a whale, or perform the finishing shot, or participate in the flensing? I'm there, ready to pay the price of admission.

In some ways I don't agree with a lot of tribal issues, but as far as harvesting game, I really don't have much of an issue.

A phrase comes to mind... you give and inch and they take a mile!

Wasn't it Oregon that was going to kill some eagles because of some wind farm or something? No big issue here except small minds trying to make the issue bigger. You act like they are going to kill the eagles with those flossing beads or something.

something=their smell

wgaf

Yes - like....buffalo/bison


Exactly _now your thinking

they also had a hand in wiping out the Bison here as well, it wasnt just us...

Bill Cody tried to protect them, and he was a professional hunter, and a white man, but the government felt otherwise, as it would have taken away the primary source of food for the Natives... also, just 1 tribe, the Commanche tribe, was killing around 280,000 Bison a year.. thats just 1 tribe... im not saying that what we did 200 years ago was right, im saying, its not just our fault... as far as Eagles, they were endangered for a reason, why would you want to put them in any situation remotely the same as that?

about Bison:

read the 19th Century Bison Hunts..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bison#Native_hunting

Bro - when I have reason when I have time I will look into your reads-thank you

If you were a child taken from your parents and told not to speak your native tongue and abusbubed to disbelief -your heritage raped - then bring up a native American asking a government to harvest 2 eagles for religios resaons.

A buddy tOld me of his Mexican neighbors slaying 2 goats hanging from a tree for their heritage their beliefs in mount Vernon -USA_

Who made a cry for the goats?

goats werent ever endangered... let me break it down...

tons of people get pissed off about Natives netting rivers, killing some of the last wild steelhead in the streams... i would have to say, that in the rivers that are closed to retention of them, there are WAY more of them than there are Eagle's in this state, now thats just 1 state...

so why be upset about something that was never near the status of the Eagle? or are Eagles just another stupid bird?


to me they arent, and should be left alone... by everyone

use a crow instead..

BWP, here is the book i have, if you would like to get one, they are rather cheap now... there are some very cool color illustrations in it as well...

http://www.amazon.com/Spirits-Heroes-Hun...mp;sr=8-1-spell

I personally would love to just have some dirt, fish and my people. Instead I have to do a bunch of bs, and this Internet thing.

+1 on the bald eagle killing with flossing beads, I'm sorry but that's funny.

In all reality give them their birds, there's hillbillies fishing the sky every day and I'm sure at least one bald eagle gets shot in the skagit basin a year by some white dude. I don't like the fact they get to net everything or that Commies net, yet it happens. I on the other hand would not give a care if they took their half with the same materials and watercraft from 500 years ago. If the natives want it old school then give it to them, we take our ridiculous technologies and give them back their land. I personally would love to just live off the land without the worries of modern society.

redhook, I'm figuring you either have some weird axe to grind, or really just don't know much...but your opinion on this is so bereft of fact, or logic, or even anything approaching correctitude (yes, I made that word up, it applies), that it makes me think you are being this ignorant on purpose.

Were it not for TeaBaggers and other assorted right wing nutcases, I'd think you were doing it just to be funny...but since they actually say and do things as ignorant as your last dozen posts, I'm unfortunately left in the position of having to take it as a possibility that you actually believe the utter bullschit you are posting here.

In that case...I'll once again visit my comment about the utter failure of our educational system to convey even the most basic tenets of American history.

Congratulations.

Fish on...

Todd

The conflict between religious beliefs and societal laws is not a new one. Fundy Mormons and multiple wives, some Muslims and stoning of adulteresses, -peyote eaters, animal sacrifices, it’s a long list. We draw the line where society chooses - today. Tomorrow? A nice compromise might be to give them the next two dead eagles that turn up. Or maybe their religion requires they do the killing.

As Mr. Dylan said . . .

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What ?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done ?"
God says. "Out on Highway 61".

Your right I insulted myself

Good call_ "eng pete"

These hillbillies kinda freak me out--No offense if thats your bag

Any Indian who kills a Eagle ought to be banished.

Thanks Redhook. Have you read Seven Arrows?

Let see: 500 years ago they hunted, fished, women did all the work, they paid no taxes, and their environment wasn't screwed up. Now tell me again, how lucky they are to have us white men?

take your [Bleeeeep!] down to the Amazon, find a tribe, give them a Jet Sled, a real hammer, 6 big macs, and a fully furnished house and tell me how happy they are....

I've had blubber. (Alaska) You can have my share. You'll never starve to death with a mouth full, 'cause it's the meet that just keeps on chewing. The more you chew, the more it's there. I'll stick with springers......

....and on that note, see my signature line.....

Good to know Alan. I'll try a small bite at first.

yeah well im not one of the white men that screwed anything up... my family came in on another boat long after the first ones came here... its part of the world, it happened, deal with it...

no Illy i have not read Seven Arrows, i only have a few books, mostly about old Indian fishing practices... and some about History and Mythology... i will go to the library and check it out...

Just to be a contrarian, the bald eagle is also king of the scavengers. The time of year around here, they're eating after birth (placenta) from calving cows. I've had them sit down behind a ewe giving birth, take the first lamb, eat the brains out of it, maybe some of the guts, and then go to another. Yeah, I like them, they're a majestic bird, but I also have a bit of knowledge about the other side of their life...they're actually a bit like magpies or ravens.

You know, of course, that Benjamin Franklin wanted the wild turkey for the national bird, thinking they were much more intelligent and wary, than the scavenger that he considered the eagle to be?

turkeys destroy land and habitat... proof of that is here in Wa State... there are FAR more turkeys here than eagles, something like 200+K

Indians are scavengers too.

And on that note you must remember that not all turkeys have feathers.

Bald Eagle, majestic bird, Golden Eagle even more majestic.
The Americn aborigines have used eagle feathers for centuries without
impacting the bird's population numbers. We come along and poison
the environment and nearly wipe tham out and want to tell every-one
how aware we are.KEEEERIST talk about inanity.

I don't think they need to use feathers any more, a simple wave goodbye to the Eagle would work.

good point Illy... but, im not the one that poisoned anything, and i highly doubt any of my family ever killed an Eagle.. i have been fascinated by them since i was a young kid, and still am..i used to love being out the the boat in front of the cabin fishing, watching them swoop down and take trout and salmon and flying up into the Madrone or Fir trees and eat them... i would rather protect them, i dont feel the need to kill any bird/mammal anymore... after whackin a few Coyotes, i found out that i didnt enjoy it one bit... i also would like to fully protect wild Steelhead, meaning ZERO killing of them, but since that is going over like a fart in church, i highly doubt anyone will listen to what my opinions are on Eagles anyways...

It's not your opinion on eagls that anyone has a problem with...I'd wager that there's no one here who likes to see them killed, or thinks we should kill more.

It's your bassacwards and ridiculous comments about Indians that are disagreeable.

When Alan, Illy, and I all agree on something...well, let's just say that doesn't happen too often

Fish on...

Todd

i was being sarcastic, to a point...

it wasnt just us that did all the damage, just like now, its not just us doing all the damage to the fish... you can say that we had a larger hand in the destruction, but how much of a hand? 60-40? 70-30? either way, its not just us, history is history, and is completely irrelevant in this... the eagles were endangered at a point, who cares who caused it, keep them protected...

yes, it may just be 2 stupid birds, but what if the other 25 tribes catch wind of this, and exercise their religious beliefs so that they can kill 2 birds, then it turns into 52 birds per year... eventually, they will be back to being endangered, why risk that?

How much of a hand in the destruction? I'd say...

White man: 99.99981 %

Indians: .00019%

Give or take.

52 ain't gonna happen, and it wouldn't make them endangered, anyway...the ESA had zero to do with eagles recovering, anyway, it was all about banning DDT.

Fish on...

Todd

Tongue in cheek here---Maybe the Native Americans could have had a bigger hand in destroying the land if they hadn't of gotten sick and died from smallpox.

are you saying that the white man brought smallpox here JG? cuz Ramses the 5th died of it in the 1100s BC... in Egypt..

Whats that got to do with anything? Maybe learn to actually apply that stuff you learn in them few books you have.

Best I can do is no firearms, no motor vehicles, no radios/phones.
No modern schitt whatsoever.

Gotta do it the old way.

Hand made bow, hand made arrow, stone, whatever.

it has alot to do with everything... heres some application for you..

Christopher Columbus didnt ever step foot on North America, it was infact SOUTH America where he landed, the first possible known person to step foot on America, was Leif Ericson, and it was around 1000 AD, others say it was possibly Richard Muerig, and others say John Cabot, both in the very late 1400s... carbon dating of crap (litterally) shows that Native Americans were here 14+ thousand years ago, but, they had Asian lineage in their blood lines...

so if you want to get technical, Asians were here first... immigration and evolution is part of the world, and part of history, you cant change it, what is true? how would we know, all we have to rely on is what people have written in books, so who is right? where do you start? because books are proven wrong all the time, and Albert Einstiens theory of "nothing is faster than the speed of light" is actually in the process of being disproved, as they have found molecules from atoms i believe that travel far faster than the speed of light...

the last part of that is rather irrelevant.. but it goes to show, that you can believe what you wish, there are many theorys, by many different people, whos right?

answer, noone really knows, because you werent here 500, 1000, 10000, 15000 years ago...

i was just trying to have a discussion, if people wont allow that, feel free to delete this now... i wont be hurt in any way....

Hey Todd, watch the Bass Ackwards comments!

One important cause of Native American depopulation during European contact was epidemic disease. The sixteenth through nineteenth centuries saw many different diseases strike Native American populations with considerable frequency.






Many of the diseases, such as syphilis, smallpox, measles, mumps, and bubonic plague, were of European origin, and Native Americans exhibited little immunity because they had no previous exposure to those diseases. This caused greater mortality than would have occurred if these diseases been endemic to the Americas.

I had heard that syphilis was a New World gift to the Old.

Scary, you left out Scarlet Fever, Diptheria, Typhoid and Cholera. And probably the common cold.
And how do you say Satan in the 500 tribes dialects. Hernando de Soto
or Coronado will do.

Pretty sure Egyptians gave bald eagles smallpox when they stayed at the Hotel California.

I don't really blame people for the transfer of germs.............you can't really help that a place you're visiting hasn't been exposed to your cooties before.

If it's done intentionally, it becomes a different story.

Why did it take me so long to read this thread?

Comedy [Bleeeeep!] gold.