I'm wondering about the strengths and weaknesses of the above type boats. I'm hoping to save enough to buy one this year. I primarily fish rivers although a lake one or twice a year comes to play. Storeage can be an issue (bad for the boat). I would like to be able to carry three anglers. A friend recommended a "super puma" with a frame. I can get a "scream'n deal on a raft 16.5' with a frame and oars for 700 from a co worker although I think thats too large.

thick

Being a little bias toward Catarafts they are my choice ( of coarse )I use to own a drift boat,( note use to) so I'll try and keep my comparisons brief ,drift boats are great for hauling people and gear,storage can be a problem as you mentioned earlier,raft are slugs they track like crap and don't handle that great, with the super Puma being a little better...Cats are quick and responsive their downfall is storage room you need a real imagination and lots of dry storage ,you are limited only by you're frame design ,for 3 people I wouldn't go smaller than a 14 ftr with sixteen being a better choice,if you going to fish 3 people all the time,if you fishing fairly easy water then you could go with the 14'.
The big advantage is being highly mobile the tubes deflate and the frame can be a break-down model, strap to the roof or in the back of you're rig,so if you can get to the river or lake you can lauch,heck I've had to drag mine down some very brushy hill sides to get to lauch.
Add some stand up platforms and or a motor bracket you can fish anywhere you want
just my slighly bias .02
Good Luck

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Row Quietly and fish a Cataraft }<<(('>----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish



[This message has been edited by Osprey (edited 07-25-2000).]

Ospy,

Thanks, in regard to the types of rafts the PUMA style are the best? The three person fishing would be on lakes. I've looked a a PAC 1200 as far as the cat goes. Are there any good places anyone can recommend for used or new cats or rafts?

thick

Ok, I can give you advice in all situations. First, I've owned driftboats and catarafts. I've also have rowed rafts too. I'll definitely go with what Osprey said above in every aspect. But, if you had a custom frame built, you could have storage areas built in your frame like I have (Osprey has seen them, I can put two big rubbermaid boxes on both sides of me for storage). I'd suggest going with the 16 foot cataraft for 3 people. It'll handle the weight well and will still give you maneuverability (I've had my Aire 16ft loaded with myself, two full size adults, two 100+ lb dogs, and gear and didn't list or take much extra water). Go to http://www.riverraiders.com (if it doesn't come up try www.riverraider.com), they have pkg deals on cats/rafts that are reasonable. I don't have the webpage handy, but do a search for Northwest Rafters Association and they have a webpage that sell used cats/rafts. You can get deals there too. I wouldn't go with a raft though. As Osprey said they don't track well and they DON'T cut waves well when you're running rapids. They push up and roll too much due to lack of weight. $700 is a good deal though, but it's WAY too big of a boat. A 16ft cat compared to a 16 raft are completely different. A cat is more maneuverable. When it comes down to it, it's your call on what you will buy. I'd go cataraft. They're so much more versatile. I'd say NO to buying the raft or pac. It may be a good deal, but you'll end up not liking them. I've had a few chances to buy both, but since I've had/used both I know it's not worth it. If you have any questions let me know, I'll direct you best I can.....Jerry

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you haven't lived til you've rowed a cataraft. Friends don't let friends run Outcasts.

[This message has been edited by Steelheader69 (edited 07-26-2000).]

16 ftr is getting to large for a cat I've narrowed my choices to PAC1200 used for $1550 or a used Puma (super?) with frame for $1,400. The both will be cramped for 3 on the lakes but most of that will be for crossing only.

Which boat is the most stable in white water and capable of class three plus. both can be hauled in the back of my jeep

thick

Steelheader 69, a funny thing about your statement about "outcast". I am fairly certain that the "Aire' Pontoons and the "outcast" pontoons are both made by Seattle Tarp.

thickline - you can get brand new cat tubes and a custom frame from TMS, or other frame builders as well, for about 1500 - just a thought

Thanks all for the help, who is "TMS" do they have a web site. Everything I'm reading suggests cat over the puma are they that much more stable and easier to control?

thick

Well Salmontackler, the actual vinyl itself may be made by them, but they're assembled by Aire itself (unless they're lying on their brochures). Outcast uses a less durable material, while Aire actually uses a stronger type for the hull. It's like apples and oranges on that statement, you can buy two cat frames, but they materials may come from same galvanized steel plant, but both frames are not the same. It's all in construction. Actually your top of the line Outcasts are made in conjunction with Aire, BUT....the frames suck. They only have two support crossbars that are maybe at most 1 inch diameter aluminum. They're frame isn't wide enough so less stable side to side. I've owned them so I know them (I've almost had my outcast buckle on boulder drop on the Sky and know people who have had it happen to) So, I never said it was the pontoons, I said it was the boat themselves. I never said it was a bad boat, just not suited for whitewater. You look at a 12ft outcast, and they're the SAME width as their smaller 8ft boats. You have no room and not very stable. Plus their pontoons never really get any bigger diameter when they get longer. Exponentially they should expand widthwise if you expand lengthwise. So, you see, if they're supposedly the same boat, why would an 8ft outcast only carry 250lbs and an 8 ft Aire handle over 600lbs? It's not in material, it's how they're made.

Ok, thickline, if you can do it, go for the 16fter. They're not as bad as you think. I use mine on the Nooch on low water flows of summer and have never had a problem with it. Just make sure you have a frame that fits the boat. I'd seriously say stay away from the outcasts. They're good for one man slow river/lake boats, but not for whitewater. If you plan to do any serious 3/4, you want actual whitewater pontoons (ie Aire, Maravia, Wing, etc). But, as I said before, go with what you want. I'd go with a cat if I were you, but go to that homepage I told you about (it's the NWRA northwest rafters association) They have some good deals on true whitewater boats. If you were to buy a boat, I'd go with the Puma, not the outcast (as much as I don't like rafts). Pumas are at least whitewater used safely. But seriously, look around a bit. You can get a decent deal on a used cat. You'd be suprised how well a 16fter will handle and what type of areas you can float with it. Good luck.....

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you haven't lived til you've rowed a cataraft. Friends don't let friends run Outcasts.

When it comes to Cats it starts with the tubes,in my opion the best are Wing followed by Sotar,both of these are urethane material the toughest stuff out there ,in my opinon everything else falls short.
The frame makes it all happen,you can go with a modular setup for versitility or a straight fishing frame,I designed mine after whitewater frames with some custom add ons to make a very good fishing set-up.
Steelie 69 is right on, a lot of manufacturers increase lenght on the tubes and not the diameter ,big mistake this does not improve the boat,they tend to be a bit sluggish, their is no comparison between a raft and a cat when it comes to handling ,cats are the 4X4 of whitewater it's like night and day ,besides they are such a kick in the A** to play on too.

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Row Quietly and fish a Cataraft }<<(('>----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

[This message has been edited by Osprey (edited 07-28-2000).]

A couple of points I can clear up from these posts. Or better, just give you my opinion.

1> Its not a good idea to put the puma in a class 3 + river. The PAC 1200 is even less capable. Class 4 is big water and these are small boats. Sure it can be done but its just not what they are made for.

2> Aire boats are made in Idaho, so is Maravia. Both are very nice boats. Both factorys are located in Garden city, part of Boise.

3> 3 guys fishing off a cat boat... gee.. think about that one ??? I guess it could be done but its not really what you would call fun.

4> Cat boats kick ass !!! that is a fact. Use them for river running and they can't be beat. They do happen to be second rate for fishing. I have 3 boats. Aire Cougar, 16 foot Alumaweld drift boat ( its getting old and is still in great shape) and a 21 ft Northwest Jet. Each has its job and I use them all quite a bit each year. If for some reason I could only keep one, it would be the drift boat.. Three guys no problem, river, lake whatever

Hey B run, what size cat do you have, or had? My 16 ft handles and fishes 3 with ease, and that's on my whitewater frame. Once I have my fishing frame built will be even better. A 12/14 ft I'd really be leary about 3, but a 16ft (or if you can find an 18 but all my new catalogs show none being made this year)cat will handle 3 with ease.

What B run for most part was all true in his opinion. I'd say for most part thickline, you'll have to either try them all out and get your own opinion. We all have ours, B run would only settle on a driftboat having owned all three types. Myself and Osprey would only settle on a cat, having owned all. You have all our own opinions, I guess you'll have to make your own. I'll say this much, if you're a plug puller, a driftboat will be your choice then. You can do it with cats, just takes a LOT more work. As Osprey said, cats are the 4 x 4's of the water, so they cut water extremely well, just won't hold well to pull plugs like a driftboat will. I wouldn't see your friend saying no to a test run on the boats. Also find someone with cats and driftboats who'll let you take them for a run. It'll help you. Good luck.....Jerry

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you haven't lived til you've rowed a cataraft. Friends don't let friends run Outcasts.

header69 and all thanks for the input. I don't plan on pulling plugs or for the most part fishing from the boat. I 99.999% fly fish, so the purpose of the boat is store gear and move me from place to place while taking up as little space and not needing a trailer. That is the reason I am think puma (ish) but now you guys have me thinking cat (ish). Any places to look for new or used cats that might be good deals? someone mention TMS? where are they, I also checked the NWRA site and will check back.

regards