#947087 - 01/14/16 12:12 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Ornamental Rice Bowl
Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12615
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Fishing the Nursery is Shrinking ChinookJanuary 24, 2012 The life history of Chinook salmon differs in important ways from those of the other salmon species. Compared to all other Pacific salmon, Chinook salmon are bigger, they reach sexual maturity at a variety of ages (three and older for females, two and older for males), and they can attain older ages, up to eight years. Chinook salmon are, of course, well known for their relatively large body size. Historically, Chinook commonly attained weights in excess of fifty pounds and occasionally exceeded one hundred pounds. This characteristic is the result of not just longevity, but also a unique pattern of adult growth. Chinook salmon grow relatively slowly during the first two years in the ocean and progressively faster in later years. This pattern indicates that Chinook “traded” the increased risk of dying before reaching maturity in exchange for the increased benefits of larger body size. Those benefits include not only more eggs to deposit, but larger, better quality eggs that give newly emerged fry a better chance of surviving early life in freshwater. Large-bodied Chinook can spawn in deeper, faster water, and build nests in larger cobbles that better protect eggs from scour during high flow events. Thus, Chinook salmon are potentially able to exploit spawning habitat that is simply unavailable to other salmon and steelhead, such as the spawning habitat in and above the steeper canyon reaches of the Elwha River. These inherent attributes of Chinook resulted in large populations (in excess of one million in some large river basins) of large fish, at least until the intense commercial fisheries began in the last quarter of the 19th century. Up to 1920 or so in the Sacramento/San Joaquin and the 1930s in the lower Columbia River, the average weight of Chinook caught by the various in-river commercial fisheries exceeded twenty pounds (McDonald 1894, Rich 1940, Yoshiyama & Moyle 1998). By the 1960s, average weights coastwide had dropped below twenty pounds, and were closer to fifteen pounds in most areas. By 1975, the average weights of many stocks had begun to approach ten pounds (for the entire BC coast and Georgia Strait; Ricker 1981). The average ages of Chinook declined in a corresponding manner. For example, based on tagging data conducted off the west coast of Vancouver Island in the late 1920s, Ricker (1981) estimated the spawning-age composition of unfished Chinook populations in this area to be: 12% of the population was three-year-old fish; 29%, four-years-old; 31%, five-years-old; 23%, six-years-old; and 5%, seven-years-old, yielding an average age of 4.8 years. By the mid-1990s, the average age of most British Columbia and Washington Chinook populations was less than 3.1 years. Significantly, the most common age of the majority of Chinook populations today is four-years-old, in contrast to five-years-old prior to the 1950s. In many of today’s populations, the second most common age is three-years-old, whereas prior to the 1950s it was six-years-old. This constitutes a huge decrease in spawning potential and life history diversity, and thus, in the resilience of Chinook populations to environmental challenges. What caused this decline in age and size? Numerous factors have probably contributed to the current drastic condition of Chinook, including harvest, competition in the ocean from large hatchery releases, and large-scale changes in the ocean environment. However, the last two most likely only make worse changes that are fundamentally caused by harvest. For thousands of years prior to European colonization, Native Americans harvested salmon with traditional methods in or near the rivers as mature salmon returned from the sea to their natal waters. Generally, the descendants of Europeans used in-river gillnet fisheries during the first fifty years of commercial salmon fishing starting in the 1870s and targeted large Chinook. By the 1920s, when motorized fishing boats enabled fisheries to extend to the estuaries and the near ocean, the average size and age of many Chinook stocks within large rivers like the Sacramento/San Joaquin, Columbia, and Fraser had already been reduced, despite average catch weights that still ranged twenty to thirty pounds. The consequence of developing the ocean troll fishery meant that immature, growing Chinook that were still one to three years away from maturity were subject to constant harvest pressures. This highly favored those fish that would have naturally matured at a younger age. With an ocean fishery, the longer a fish stays at sea, the greater the likelihood it will be harvested. Over time, this effect will reduce the average age and size of the population, as the portion that would have matured at an older age will now be harvested. In the case of Chinook salmon, older (and consequently larger) seven- and eight-year-old fish are disappearing from runs. These fish are the most productive within the population and their absence indicates a serious stock failure as well as an overall reduction in productive capacity. If the more productive older/larger and female fish were not targeted and released, the quality of the escapement would increase. The net result of all of this is that today’s Chinook salmon populations are significantly less complex and diverse in life history than they were a century ago. They are younger and smaller, and growth rates of the majority of populations have been changed in negative ways. Those populations are less likely to have the growth and maturity rates required to produce fish that are five-years-old and older that mature at large body sizes in excess of forty pounds. Can this trend be reversed? Yes, but it will require changes in harvest rates and practices, and unless selective fishing methods that harvest only hatchery fish are mandated, it will also require reductions in hatchery releases of Chinook and other salmon species. Ocean harvest rates will need to continue to be reduced and fisheries that directly or indirectly encounter immature Chinook, particularly troll fisheries, must either be terminated or become selective. Fisheries that select for larger Chinook, particularly gillnet fisheries, must also be eliminated or become selective. Then the proportionately few remaining older, larger, natural-origin Chinook will return to spawn in the immediate future and become the foundation for the slower, longer process of recovering the proportions of five-year-old and older age classes that were typical of most historic Chinook salmon populations. This perspective is especially relevant to the recovery of Elwha River Chinook following the removal of the Elwha dams. The legendary large body size of Elwha Chinook was probably essential to the ability of the population to colonize the middle and upper Elwha basins where they were required to pass through several rough canyon reaches and make use of large spawning substrates in the deep, fast waters of the upper basin. The science on how populations respond to harvest indicates that the large-bodied Elwha Chinook will not be restored simply through dam removal if no other measures are taken. Restoring the Elwha Chinook probably requires a closer examination of how harvest has and will continue to affect the stock.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey) "If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman) The Keen Eye MDLong Live the Kings!
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#947106 - 01/14/16 07:53 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1188
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
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I understand the biology, but the politics less so.
This seems like a rare opportunity where the priorities of the citizens of the US Pacific NW and the coastal tribes should be squarely aligned. Even though there's competition for local stocks when they return between these two user groups, a rising tide would float all boats, so to speak.
Working in collaboration might be a rare chance for synergy here (or am I way off base?),
fb
_________________________
"Laugh if you want to, it really is kinda funny, cuz the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy" All Hail, The Devil Makes Three
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#947110 - 01/14/16 08:12 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: fishbadger]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4489
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
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I think your a lot more on target than you think. The interception fisheries cross user boundaries sorta a Churchill moment, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. We are in this boat together like it or not and we can kick the crap out of each other ( and will do just that ) on WA fisheries but on this issue we must set aside our differences and quit fighting over what is left after AK butchers PNW salmon stocks.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in
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#947111 - 01/14/16 08:13 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7579
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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But will the WA-based fishermen be willing to forego the immature Chinook to catch the mature? No more Westport unless the minimum size is like 36" and so on. No more PS Blackmouth.
Even some tribes will fight it as the Makah, because of location, primarily troll for immature Chinook.
The politics will we messy. It will have to come down to ESA and the Chinook listing. I can see that, coupled with WFCs desire to eliminate hatchery production, our need to keep the hydro dams, etc. that the God Squad will tell us that society does not need Chinook or Killer Whales.
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#947142 - 01/14/16 09:55 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1188
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
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Carcassman, I defer to your knowledge base on the politics here, but you must admit, that's a lot of "what-if". . .which is seldom a rational reason for avoiding action and continuing a doomed status quo.
That said, there might be a rare opportunity to work together here, which could lead to future collaboration (without which we're fvcked anyway),
fb
_________________________
"Laugh if you want to, it really is kinda funny, cuz the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy" All Hail, The Devil Makes Three
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#947146 - 01/14/16 10:19 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7579
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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The base problem is that we as a species have no interest in controlling ourselves. Those who were in WA in 1970 can paint a very different picture of fishing and hunting than now. When we add all the millions coming here, what will happen to fish and wildlife? And, if we were so visionary to protect them here we still need food, water, fiber, minerals, and such from somewhere.
Just look at how well the US has done, truly, on environmental controls, clean air, clean water. Yet, we continue to consume goods. We just manufacture them in places with lesser controls. Like India and China. Nice environment there, isn't it?
Especially as climate moderates folks will move north. CA will become too hot so Seattle will be LA north and Anchorage can be Bellevue.
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#951264 - 02/16/16 07:53 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: Rivrguy]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 05/31/08
Posts: 257
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I am posting up a recent letter from the Advocacy on the situation with ocean harvest. For the purpose of full disclosure Tim is my brother and I have known Ron & Art for years. Now to say my brother and I agree on everything is a reach in fact we often disagree LOUDLY. That all said his letter on ocean intercept hits the nail on the head. We as citizens have poured tax payer & our own money into habitat restoration, property setbacks, blockage removal, sewage just plain everything. For what? In order to restore salmon runs you have to let them come home and that is the issue. Until ocean intercept fisheries are addressed nothing will change. I will shut up now. I have a graph that was done that shows that only 3% of salmon harvest ( Chinook ) in South East Alaska originate in Alaska. Yell if you want it. Also several other graphs the show the impacts and values. For you GH folks I can also send you a graph showing the values of both the Rec inriver and bay fisheries. Twin Harbors Fish & Wildlife Advocacy PO Box 179 McCleary, WA 9855 thfwa@comcast.net January 8, 2016 Pacific Salmon Commission via: email in PDF format 1155 Robson St. Vancouver, BC V6E 1B5, Canada Re: Request For A Reduction In Harvest Impacts on Southern Bound Natural Spawning Salmon Stocks The Twin Harbors Fish & Wildlife Advocacy is a non-profit organization based in Washington State. The purpose of the Advocacy is “Provide education, science, and other efforts that en- courage the public, regulatory agencies and private businesses to manage or utilize fish, wildlife and other natural resources in a fashion that insures the sustainable of those resources on into the future for the benefit of future generations.” (www. thfwa.org). Advocacy members and their family and neighbors have personally spent decades investing in salmon production through volunteer projects that have raised millions of Chinook, Coho, and Chum salmon that contribute to the pool of fish caught in the Pacific Ocean. Our members and supporters have joined with other Washington citizens and property owners in contributing billions of dollars in habitat restoration, state operated hatchery production, culvert replacements, property devaluation, loss of timber harvest, municipal or private sewage and storm water improvements, etc. under government mandates wherein the stated primary purpose is the recovery or sustainability of natural spawning salmon stocks in WA streams. With all this effort and investment, salmon recovery has struggled to succeed. Instate fishing has declined and ESA listings have plagued the state from the Columbia on the south to Puget Sound to the north. Over the last 4 years, the Advocacy and others have invested thousands of hours in assisting the Washington Fish & Wildlife Commission in adoption of two new salmon management policies for the coastal terminals of Willapa Bay1 and Grays Harbor2. The policies prioritize conservation over harvest, install hatchery reform and place an increased emphasis on achieving escapement goals for natural spawning stocks. In simple terms, an all out effort is underway to avoid further ESA designations and return natural spawning production to numbers adequate to sustain viable fisheries in the future. The effort underway went forth with the knowledge that harvest inside the terminal has to be managed in a manner that could often require reduction of harvest inside the two terminals in order to achieve escapement goals. Using 2015 as an example, tribal and non-tribal commercial 1 http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/fisheries/willapa_bay_salmon/2 http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/fisheries/grays_harbor_salmon/ seasons were curtailed for Chinook in Willapa and Grays Harbor. Recreational fishers in both terminals were forced to forgo retention of un-marked Chinook. Then, the much smaller than expected 2015 Coho return forced closures of tribal commercial, non-tribal commercial, and recreational seasons within both coastal terminals. Even with all these measures and sacrifices, we believe it is clear escapement goals for natural spawning Chinook in Willapa Bay in 2015 were not reached. The adjustments in non-tribal and tribal fisheries inside the terminal, combined with a recent lowering of the escapement goal, might have allowed us to reach escapement goal for Chinook in Grays Harbor. We further predict that Coho escapement goals will not be achieved in either terminal even with the closures as once again the conservation burden fell on the terminal fishers who waited patiently for their turn to fish as harvest continued on schedule on the ocean. We recognize that the citizens who live on and around salmon bearing streams are stewards of those streams and will pay a significantly greater price than non-locals for the production of fish that are likely to be harvested on the open ocean. However, in providing this subsidy to fishers in other regions, the harvest rate applied outside the terminals by PSC should not make it nearly impossible to achieve escapement goals or threaten the locals with additional burdens from ESA listing of species resulting from a consistent failure to achieve spawning production at a rate that insures the viability of the stock for the future. Unfortunately, such was the case in 2015 for Chinook in the Willapa and for Coho in both coastal terminals. As an example of the hardship placed on those inside the terminal, on page 51 of PSC’s annual report on Chinook harvest (TCCHINOOK15-1_V1, PSC.PDF) it states in 2014 “....on average 86% of fishery-related mortality on WA coastal stocks” results from PSC sanctioned fisheries located north of the Canadian/WA border. Relating that mortality to Willapa Bay, the returning runsize of Chinook natural spawners coming across the bar into the Bay was below the escapement goal. In simple terms, the number of natural spawning Chinook heading for Willapa Bay was reduced by harvest in AK and BC to the point the runsize into the Bay was well below escapement making achievement of the escapement goal impossible even if all fishing inside the terminal was canceled. It is important to note that this phenomena is not limited to 2014, but rather the norm in Willapa for over a decade. Neither is it limited to just Chinook as the same shortfall in runsize below escapement goal occurred in 2015 for Coho in both terminals resulted in season cancellations though seasons on the ocean proceeded forward on the initial schedule. In accordance with the Advocacy’s purpose referenced earlier, it is our belief that the elected officials and citizens of Washington state should have the opportunity to fully understand all the reasons why the billions already invested by Washingtonians have not produced the anticipated conservation results and the list of threatened or endangered stocks continue to grow in Puget Sound and elsewhere. It is therefore our intention to engage all in a long over-due discussion regarding the reasons why the state is plagued by the failure to recovery natural spawning salmon stocks. The latest indicator of the need for such a broad based public discussion is the overfishing notice recently published by NOAA in the federal register for Willapa Bay and Grays Harbor fall Chinook and Coho in the Hoh River further up the coast. We believe the citizens will quickly ask “Where is all this fishing occurring?” With 86% of fishing mortality occurring north of the WA/ Canada border, we expect most eyes to then turn to the PFC processes. The question we expect to hear is “If we can’t get PFC to let enough back to the streams to meet escapement goals, where’s the incentive for Washingtonians to continue pouring billions of dollars in public and private resources into habitat restoration and hatchery production?” At this point, the Advocacy doesn’t have an answer that we are confident the majority of citizens of Washington would find acceptable. Especially when responding to the family living on Willapa Bay that recently lost a quarter of a million dollars in harvestable timber due to setbacks intended to protect habitat for natural spawners that have yet to materialized in the nearby stream due to harvest impacts. As we move forward in our project to engage all in discussions about how we can restore natural spawning stocks in Washington, the Advocacy respectfully requests that the Pacific Salmon Commission consider seasons north of Washington’s border for 2016 forward that reduces the impacts on natural origin salmon stocks that have either struggled to meet escapement goals or noted under ESA guidelines. In the case of Willapa and Grays Harbor Chinook and Hoh River Coho, we are requesting a decrease in northern impacts on natural spawners of 10% per year for five consecutive years or until such time as the number crossing over from the Pacific is expected to be at least 110% of the escapement goal for two consecutive years. In presenting this request, we recognize that the Advocacy is not accustomed to the processes used within the Commission to establish quotas and harvest rates and some might frown on our approach. In our defense, at this point a relatively small percentage of Washingtonians even know the Commission exists let alone understand the impact the Commission has on the economic well-being of the state’s citizens. Then, the closed to the public meeting processes used by the Commission when establishing seasons north of WA do not provide the normal regulatory transparency we are accustomed to in the U.S. leaving one uncertain how to participate. If anyone in the Commission has recommendations on how to participate in a more effective fashion, we will give all suggestions offered due consideration. In the meantime, we will be moving forward with our plans to engage the public and elected officials in a conversation about the difficulties and obstacles that need to be addressed to insure recovery of natural spawning salmon stocks in WA streams. Respectfully, Any response yet?
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#951266 - 02/16/16 08:12 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: rojoband]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4489
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
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Not so much but they went to the Portland PFMC and followed up with the bit below. February 11, 2016 Twin Harbors Fish & Wildlife Advocacy PO Box 179 McCleary, WA 9855 thfwa@comcast.net Pacific Fishery Management Council via: email in PDF format 7700 NE Ambassador Place, Suite 101 Portland, Oregon 97220-1384 Re: Request For Consideration In Ocean Harvest Impacts On Coastal Natural Spawning Salmon Stocks The Twin Harbors Fish & Wildlife Advocacy is a non-profit organization based in Washington State. The purpose of the Advocacy is “Provide education, science, and other efforts that en- courage the public, regulatory agencies and private businesses to manage or utilize fish, wildlife and other natural resources in a fashion that insures the sustainable of those resources on into the future for the benefit of future generations.” (www. thfwa.org). Advocacy members and their family and neighbors have personally spent decades investing in salmon production through volunteer projects that have raised millions of Chinook, Coho, and Chum salmon that contribute to the pool of fish caught in the Pacific Ocean. Our members and supporters have joined with other Washington citizens and property owners in contributing billions of dollars in habitat restoration, state operated hatchery production, culvert replacements, property devaluation, loss of timber harvest, municipal or private sewage and storm water improvements, etc. under government mandates wherein the stated primary purpose is the recovery or substainability of natural spawning salmon stocks in WA streams. With all this effort and investment, salmon recovery has struggled to succeed. Instate fishing has declined and ESA listings have plauged the state from the Columbia on the south to Puget Sound to the north. Over the last 4 years, the Advocacy and others have invested thousands of hours in assisting the Washington Fish & Wildlife Commission in adoption of two new salmon management policies for the coastal terminals of Willapa Bay1 and Grays Harbor2. The policies prioritize conservation over harvest, install hatchery reform and place an increased emphasis on achieving escapement goals for natural spawning stocks. In simple terms, an all out effort is underway to avoid further ESA designations and return natural spawning production to numbers adequate to sustain viable fisheries in the future. The effort underway went forth with the knowledge that harvest inside the terminal has to be managed in a manner that could often require reduction of harvest inside the two terminals in order to achieve escapement goals. Using 2015 as an example, tribal and non-tribal commercial seasons were curtailed for Chinook in Willapa and Grays Harbor. Recreational fishers in both 1 http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/fisheries/willapa_bay_salmon/2 http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/fisheries/grays_harbor_salmon/ terminals were forced to forgo retention of unmarked Chinook. Then, the much smaller than expected 2015 coho return forced closures of tribal commercial, non-tribal commercial, and recreational seasons within both coastal terminals. Even with all these measures and sacrifices, we believe it is clear escapement goals for natural spawning Chinook in Willapa Bay in 2015 were not reached. The adjustments in non-tribal and tribal fisheries inside the terminal, combined with a recent lowering of the escapement goal, allowed us to reach escapement goals in Grays Harbor. Coho escapement goals were not achieved in either terminal even with the closures as once again the conservation burdon fell on the terminal fishers who waited patiently for their turn to fish as harvest continued on schedule on the ocean. As an example, the Humptulips in GH achieved less than 20 percent of its goal. We recognize that the citizens who live on and around salmon bearing streams are stewards of those streams and will pay a significantly greater price than non-locals for the production of fish that are likely to be harvested on the open ocean. However, in providing this subsidy to fishers on the ocean, the harvest rate applied outside the terminals by the PFMC should not make it nearly impossible to achieve escapement goals or threaten the locals with the potential of additional burdens from ESA listing of species in the future. In a recent appearance before the Pacific Salmon Commission, the Advocacy pointed out a problem with seasons set to the north. An example of the hardship placed on those inside the terminal was pointed out by quoting page 51 of PSC’s annual report on Chinook harvest (TCCHI- NOOK15-1_V1, PSC.PDF) which states in 2014 “....on average 86% of fishery-related mortality on WA coastal stocks” results from PSC sanctioned fisheries located north of the Canadian/WA border. As a direct result, the returning runsize of Chinook natural spawners coming across the bar into Willapa was reduced below the escapement goal. In simple terms, the number of natural spawning Chinook heading for Willapa Bay was reduced by harvest in AK and BC in PSC sanctioned fishers to the north and once again in PFMC seasons off the coast. As the result of those two regulatory schemes, the runsize was reduced to below the escapement goal making achievement of the goal impossible even if all fishing inside the terminal was canceled. It is important to note that this phenomena is not limited to 2014, but rather the norm in Willapa for over a decade. Neither is it limited to just Chinook as the runsize below escapement goal occurred in 2015 for coho in both terminals resulted in season cancellations though seasons on the ocean proceeded forward on the initial schedule. In accordance with the Advocacy’s purpose referenced earlier, it is our belief that the elected officials and citizens of Washington state should have the opportunity to fully understand all the reasons why the billions already invested by Washingtonians have not produced the anticipated conservation results and the list of threatened or endangered stocks continue to grow in Puget Sound and elsewhere. It is therefore our intention to engage all in a long over-due discussion re- guarding the reasons why the state is plagued by the failure to recovery natural spawning salmon stocks. The latest indicator of the need for such a broad based public discussion is the overfishing notice recently published by NOAA in the federal register for Willapa Bay and Grays Harbor fall Chinook and coho in the Hoh River further up the coast. We believe the citizens will quickly ask “Where is all this fishing occurring?” With 86% of fishing mortality occurring north of the WA/ Canada border, we expect most eyes to first turn to the PFC processes. The question we expect to hear is “If we can’t get PFC to let enough back to the streams to meet escapement goals, where’s the incentive for Washingtonians to continue pouring billions of dollars in public and private resources into habitat restoration and hatchery production?” The next point of reference will be the ocean harvest installed by PFMC off the coast. While of less impact than the northern fisheries, the PFMC seasons “piggy-back” onto the northern harvest leaving the citizens within the terminal a minor portion of the return even though they are the ones primarily footing the bill for the productions costs that feeds all on the open ocean. At this point, the Advocacy doesn’t have an explanation that we are confident the majority of citizens of Washington would find acceptable. Especially when responding to the family living on Willapa Bay that recently lost a quarter of a million dollars in harvestable timber due to set- backs intended to protect habitat for natural spawners that have yet to materialize in the nearby stream due to harvest impacts, primarily on the open ocean. As we move forward in our project to engage all in discussions about how we can restore natural spawning stocks in Washington, the Advocacy respectfully requests that the PFMC consider seasons that reduce the impacts on natural origin salmon stocks that have either struggled to meet escapement goals or already been noted under ESA guidelines. In the case of Willapa Chinook and Hoh River coho, we are requesting a decrease in impacts on natural spawners incurring in PFMC sanctioned fisheries. Same as the request made to PSC, a reduction of 10% per year for five consecutive years or until such time as the number crossing over from the Pacific is forecasted to be at least 110% of the escapement goal for two consecutive years. We end by asking for personal consideration from each of the voting members of the PFMC. Specifically, when setting seasons off the coast, we ask each of you to simply ask yourselves two questions prior to voting. The first is “Will the seasons being proposed for the ocean create an incentive for the citizens who live inside the terminals to continue to invest billions into habitat restoration and hatchery production that supports ocean harvest?” The second is “Will the number of fish allowed to return to the coastal terminals allow managers a reasonable ability to achieve escapement goals for natural spawning stocks?” If the answer is no to either, we ask each of you to soundly reject the proposal. Respectfully, Tim Hamilton Art Holman Ron Schweitzer President Vice-President Secretary/Treasurer cc: The Honorable Members of the WA Fish & Wildlife Commission Director Jim Unsworth, WDFW Assistant Director Ron Warren, WDFW Fish Program
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in
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#1060227 - 08/10/22 08:08 PM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Ornamental Rice Bowl
Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12615
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_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey) "If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman) The Keen Eye MDLong Live the Kings!
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#1060236 - 08/11/22 07:29 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1387
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Repeat... Now what? What may, can, or will happen from this? Hard to believe that AK's and Canada's commercial fleet is all the sudden gonna stop fishing. Is this just a symbolic decision? Or, something that has teeth to shut it down. Appeals? How many more years until something changes?
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller. Don't let the old man in!
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#1060237 - 08/11/22 07:42 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7579
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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The Court will decide for US fisheries. They could order the closure of those AK fisheries, and maybe any Southern US fisheries that take immature Chinook.
My solution, which could still leave the criminally low escapement goals in place, is for NOAA/Courts to mandate that all Chinook fisheries occur on adult fish after they have passed by SRKWs. As a general rule, this would be in rivers. But, in PS it could be in bays or even the main Sound until a pod shows up.
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#1060238 - 08/11/22 08:42 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1604
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
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That is correct. In his order accepting the recommendation, Judge Jones said the Magistrate Judge, Michelle Peterson, will submit an additional report with appropriate remedies for the violations of the defendants, which include the National Marine Fisheries Service and the Department of Commerce.
So the question of 'What happens next?' is still to be determined. But I find it hard to believe that the harvest of Chinook salmon in SE AK will continue has it has for many years. Seems like a drastic reduction in harvest should be a major consideration.
An appeal is likely being discussed, but it might be awhile before DoJ decides whether to appeal, or not. That might depend on the extent of the remedies imposed by the Judge.
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#1060240 - 08/11/22 11:07 AM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7579
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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The alternative, depending on who controls Congress (elections have consequences), would be convening the God Squad and writing off PS Chinook and SRKWs. To the dispassionate and considering the success that has been had in in Chinook and SRKW recovery to date that the decision for extinction has been made.'
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#1060244 - 08/11/22 01:28 PM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: Carcassman]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 192
Loc: United States
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CM, that isn't how the god squad works or what it decides on. Congress doesn't convene the god squad and decide to let species go instinct.
"The God Squad has the authority to exempt an agency action from the requirements of section 7(a)(2) of the ESA if the God Squad makes certain determinations. The God Squad is composed of seven members: the Secretary of Agriculture, Secretary of the Army, Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors, Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, Secretary of the Interior, Administrator of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and one individual from the affected State, as determined by the Secretary of the Interior and appointed by the President. The God Squad process is initiated when a Federal agency, a Governor of the State in which an agency action will occur, or in certain circumstances, a permit or license applicant, submits an application to the Secretary of Commerce or Secretary of the Interior (the recipient of the application depends upon which species is being impacted). In order for the exemption to be granted, five out of the seven members of the God Squad must vote in favor of the exemption."
Some entity would have to request that a certain action be exempt from ESA constraints for ESA species. ....but other restrictions would remain. What action for exemption would be supported by the public, governors, tribes to not apply to those precious SRKWs? Someone gets a freebie while others take the burden? It sure won't be fisheries that get break if it's understood that the fishery has an effect on abundance or habitat.
The god squad has made 3 decisions since the ESA was amended in 1978. They denied exemption for the snail darter and Tellico Dam. They okayed the exemption for whooping cranes and Grayrocks Dam and the northern spotted owl and pNW national forest lands (exemption later overturned by 9th Circuit judge).
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#1060245 - 08/11/22 03:07 PM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1604
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
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Darth - Exactly correct. The God Squad provides an exemption to the Federal agency action, not to the listed species. So if the harvest of Chinook salmon in SE AK is exempted from the ESA, the other actions that kill salmon would have to take up the slack (the incidental take) that was exempted by the God Squad. In other words, the 'conservation burden' doesn't go away, it just gets reallocated to other sectors of society (e.g., recreational angling, hydropower, habitat loss, etc).
That's why the God Squad will never be applied to Pacific salmon.
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#1060246 - 08/11/22 04:36 PM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7579
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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That is what is happening now. The incidental take has been exempted. Or the actually directed take in the winter troll fishery.
And, while Congress does not schedule or control the God Squad they do control the money. I doubt the current iteration of Conservatives are interested in saving species and if they gain control they'll exercise it. Just look at SCOTUS.
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#1060247 - 08/11/22 06:24 PM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: Carcassman]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 192
Loc: United States
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What the heck are you talking about? First you say Congress convenes the God Squad, then you say they dont. You mention something about "they" exempting winter troll, then say its actually "directed take". "They didnt exempt winter troll and it isn't "directed take". The Biological Opinion is on the SEAK troll fishery. It isn't parsed out into bits and pieces of winter, vs spring vs summer. The Biological Opinion that was attacked by WFC regarding the SEAK troll said this
NMFS determined that the amount or extent of anticipated take, coupled with other effects of the proposed actions, is not likely to result in jeopardy to the species or destruction or adverse modification of critical habitat. This is the Effect of the Take.
The BO said that the SEAK troll fishery would not jeopardize the likelihood of recovery for SRKWs and ESA Chinook stocks provided a number of Reasonable and Prudent Measures were taken. One of those was follow the provisions under the PST. The other main was increase prey availability for SRKWs by increasing Chinook hatchery releases.
THE WFC lawsuit objected to the approval of the fishery by saying that the Reasonable and Prudent Measures would not offset the loss by the troll fishery and that there was no evidence that increased hatchery production will help out or offset the fishery losses. They also dinged NOAA on a NEPA process violation.
Regarding Congress, do you really think that the West Coast delegation is going to spearhead a castration of the Dept of Commerce (NOAA) budget and take "credit" for the demise of SRKWs? They've got more important things to do like wrangle over gas prices and who to blame for inflation.
Edited by darth baiter (08/11/22 07:07 PM)
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#1060248 - 08/11/22 07:34 PM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: eyeFISH]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7579
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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I have been around Gubmint long enough to know that folks that control the money control the agencies. Congress may not be able tp physically convene the GS but they do write law and control the purse strings.
The result of the action authorizing the troll fishery/approving/whatever allows it to occur. Analysis of the catch composition showed that they winter portion of the fishery took many more southern fish. The summer fishery catches more locals. But by aggregating catch into a lump sum the details of when southern stocks predominate can be hidden.
It's not the west coast delegation but the MAGA folks (should they flip Congress) who will look to save money from being thrown down a rathole. NOAA has had close to 30 years since listing to make improvements in the population sizes of the listed Chinook and SRKWs. How's all that "reasonable and prudent" **it working? Somebody who cares more about money than natural resources will look at that balance sheet.
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#1060249 - 08/11/22 07:49 PM
Re: THE BIG LIE....
[Re: Carcassman]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 192
Loc: United States
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You're backwards. Winter has more Alaska stocks as it is an inside fishery. Though Alaska stocks are still a small percentage. It's summer troll, the biggy, in outside areas .eg..Sitka that hits URBs, Col r summers, WA and OR coastal. Puget Sound stock contribution in SEAK is pretty minor.
The NOAA funding is barely a butt pimple. When Congress is scrutinizing the budget they aren't going to spend any time looking at or thinking about this pissant stuff. And maybe the ones that do will be west coast folks and are they going to go to try arguing for cuts?
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