Salmo,
Perhaps this should be under a separate topic, but some of the points you make apply.
The Fish and Game Commission will not be taking public testimony on catch-and-release of all wild steelhead at the December meeting as I had been previously informed. They are, however, putting together a public meeting in the early spring which will address that and associated topics. As I understand it, the purpose of the meeting is to put the best current information on the table and on the record concerning the actual productive capacity of watersheds, catch-and-release mortality of mature steelhead, and the benefits of year-round, statewide catch-and-release of wild steelhead. I gather that an independant panel of fish biologists and fisheries scientists have been invited to contribute.
It's still in the planning stages, but I think that, with the current composition of the commission, catch-and-release of wild steelhead will be presented in a favorable light. I do have some (perhaps foolish) hope that this may signal a turnaround in today's management policies, and with the current forecasts for this winter's steelhead returns (at least for Puget Sound rivers) in the toilet, I only hope we aren't ten years too late. I'll pass along any further information as it becomes available.

Talked with Curt Kraemer just a few minutes ago. Most of the points have already been discussed above. He indicated that there will be no wild steelhead retention on the Snohomish System. He also indicated that the C&R March and April fishery will not happen. Curt says that WDFW does not have the data to assess ”in season” steelhead returns to possibly allow a C&R season, unlike what happened this year with coho

Well, fellas, it just keeps gettin' better. I just heard from Mr. Kraemer again, and he confirmed that the closure will apply to the Skagit/Sauk system as well. If nothing else, this should point out the fragility of our wild stocks (so fragile they can't withstand a C & R fishery, according to the State) and make any catch and kill allowed seem ridiculous. As of now, I'm in a quandry--if the assessment is correct, I think we can do without a season to ensure the health of our runs. However, if the methodology is flawed, and the reported improvements in ocean survival actually make for a good run, I will be upset to miss the season. And for all the guides and shops, well, it's going to be extremely tough to swallow. I'm wondering if we (or they) can use the 2-salt hatchery fish as an indicator of ocean survival and base the closure or opening on that. If, as many fisheries biologists believe, the ocean turned to favorable conditions starting with the 2-salt fish returning this year, and as Salmo g. stated that outgoing smolt counts are a poor basis for returning adult numbers, the hatchery run this winter should be good indication of how the wild fish fared. Anybody?

This is a topic of great importance to me as a guide on the Skagit and Sauk. Talked with Pete Castle, Skagit area biologist, late this afternoon to get the word on the rivers in my neck of the woods. It is true! This is what is proposed....PROPOSED!!! Not yet passed. Going in front of the state on Fri.
Skagit/ Sauk river system; Dec. 1st wild release. "Great!!! I'm all for that!!!" Wish it wasn't open for killing at all on the nates. As of March 1st both the Skagit and Sauk will be closed to ALL fishing.
This greatly affects my business as well as all the other business' in this area, as the Skagit brings fly fisherman from all over the world in April.
Yes, the Indians will be netting still and No, there is nothing anyone can do about it. It shouldn't even be worth waisting your energy on. What we need to do is let our voices be heard in Olympia before it goes through. Hell YES!!!! Make it C&R always on the Native run. But let us anglers at least fish for the fish we fall asleep each night dreaming about.
They did this to us once before in 92 guys, lets not let it happen again.
If its for the fish GREAT!!! But the state still cannot produce a definative study on hook mortality that shows we as anglers are wiping these fish out. Pete Castle even confirmed this for me today, stating that some studies showed as much as a 30% mortality rate while others showed only a 3% mortality rate.
B.B. we need a phone # here posted by you to let us know who and where to call in Olympia.
I'm sure this will be a hot topic in the forum board here for quite some time, as well as my chat room. Just wanted to post what I heard on the Skagit and Sauk.
Thanks Guys!!! J---<")(\(\)>{

Oh Really Big One (sir Bob),

Could you weigh in on these issues. I need to hear from someone with a lot more knowledge than I have. From my previous post, what do you make of the situation? Are ocean conditions really whats causing this? What the heck is going on?

Thank you sir, Gusty

Wll I guess come March everyone will be stocking up on power bait and bobbers Or we can all join Bob over on the Fork's area rivers. We could set up caravans...
But seriously, one thing that may be overlooked in this whole mess is the amount of pressure that will be transfered over to the Fork's area rivers and the SW Wa. area rivers such as the Kalaman and EF Lewis.

Well whos up for the March 1st opener on Dry Falls????

Why the hell has WDFW allowed a kill fishery from Dec. 1 through feb on Native steelies?? WHY!!!!!!!! Salmo g. stated that they want to "weed out" early returning nates from later arriving nates to seperate hatchery from wild. What a bunch of crap! You know what pisses me off even more! Its Triangle store, Jerry's, and other places having "fishing derbies" that run into the native run so some beligerant slob can get his picture in the paper.

We need CNR statewide! Thats the bottom line. Dont buy the "surplus" b.s. There is no such thing as a surplus steelhead.

Looks like we'll have to bite the bullet and let the grey ghost we all know and love to have the river to himself and hopefully build a future for us later on.

sorry guys for rambling on like a two year old.

- BW

p.s how do they count fish to get an escapement? Sonar? Divers?

=)

I have fished the Sky for over 30 years. The last several years I have caught about half and half....nates to hatchery fish. Releasing the nates of course. Early in the season I was catching mostly nates when I should have been catching mostly hatchery. The big change I see is that there are no longer any fish checkers to report how the catch is going. Since the big cuts in funding I have never been asked about my catch and that was almost a daily thing before the cuts.
My point being...how the heck does the WDFW know what is going on when they have even less tools than they had in the past?

This makes me sick. I thought there was a provision in the Boldt decision that allowed states to step in and disallow native netting for conservation purposes.

I've been reluctant to jump on the "WDFW sucks" band wagon in the past but in this case it looks like they have mismanaged themselves into a corner.

I'm not arguing with the closure of the season but to allow native netting is ridiculous. WDFW lacks the balls to do what's right in this situation and they lack the brains and/or the integrity to admit their contributions to this problem.

Pointing the finger isnt gonna help a bit guys, we gotta stop trying to place the blame and put the fish first. What can we do NOW to prevent this closure and implement a permanent C&R reg on all native steelies. We also need to implement a C&R guidline on our fishery such as "No removing the fish from the water...not even for a picture". They close it on us now, will this be permanent or another 1992. Will it be like the hound ban on cougars. Whats next???? We need to call Olympia and have our voices heard!!! "Pish and Blame" doesnt know all the facts, they are not on the river daily like we are, and they have no definative proof on hook mortality rates using C&R techniques. Let your voice be heard on this guys. Could be your fishing rods that are voted on next as in-humane. J---<")(\(\(\)>{

Does Mr. Kraemer of region 4 speak with Mr. Gibbons in Olympia? Last winter Gibbons presented a long slideshow for the commission wherein he championed a return of a kill fishery for wild steelhead on the penninsula because "excess fish" should be harvested in spite of the popularity of c&r on wild fish. Washington Trout challenged his management theory in a 3 page letter which I believe is still not answered. What's next, closure of the rivers around Forks?

I just cant believe what I am reading here, low escapements for the past two years, not curtailing the kill season through feb each year knowing these facts?? they say they need 650 nates for escapement and only got 2800?? how in the hell do they know they only got 2800?? did they go out an physicaly count each and every redd and spawning pair of steelhead for the three to four months those fish are in the river?? there is much untold here, and one hell of alot of smoke and mirrors on the WDFW's part. if the truth were known, they realy dont have any ideas of how many native steelhead spawned in the last two years, my guess is they will all end up like the samammish river native steelhead......they will study them into extinction!!!

Tight lines

meant to be 6500 for the escapement number, sorry for the typo.

I am surprized that they don't suggest that they build damns on all your rivers so that they can count the "wild " fish as they go up the "fish ladders" and that way decide if you can fish or not... The catch and keep wild steelhead seasons are insane. Sad part of it all is that its just the tip of the iceberg.

This is bunch of Freaking Bull $hit....Allowing netting at anytime of the run is counter productive,because 1st they can't predict $hit,if the numbers are as low as they say then pull all the nets!because we all know the nates are always mixed in with the brats during the first runs,
and of course my Labrador can count just as good as they do Time to organize and be heard.

Every spring I drive over the Nisqually and know that there are wild brutes cruising these waters and no one gets to fish for them,I'd hate see this happen again.
Enough is Enough.........Os


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Row Quietly and fish a Cataraft }<<(('>----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

Am I confused? Is WDFW confused? Are we all !@#$%& confused? I’m a conservationist, but I want to fish during March and April. I admit that. Whatever I say is biased.

I would happily give up the spring fishery if it made a difference in the long term productivity of the native steelhead population. I would even, less happily, give up fishing for wild steelhead entirely if it made a difference in the long term productivity of the native steelhead population. But it won’t make any measurable difference, and thoughtful fishery managers know that. The C&R fishing on the native run is one of the least significant factors affecting the population. A reasonable estimate of incidental mortality during C&R is 3%; call it 5% to be conservative.

In yesterday’s rant I mentioned Deer Creek steelhead as an example. For further illustration it may be useful to examine the Columbia River spring chinook fishery that RT has brought to our attention. Wild spring chinook are ESA listed as endangered. That is, those fish merit the highest level of protection. Intermingled with those wild fish are a great many hatchery springs. For the purpose of harvesting surplus hatchery production, NMFS has approved the incidental harvest of 9% of the wild, endangered spring chinook. I can’t really judge whether this is right or wrong, but the harvest managers at NMFS appear to be saying that a 9% mortality rate, in addition to the dams and everything else, will not hinder the recovery of endangered wild spring chinook. Upper Columbia River steelhead that originate from the same watersheds as some of the spring chinook are also listed as endangered. Incidental mortality from commercial and recreational fishing in the lower Columbia is allowable; incidental mortality from C&R fishing in the Wenatchee and Methow Rivers is not. And now I discover that incidental mortality of wild steelhead release is allowable during the early winter season that targets the harvest of hatchery steelhead is also allowable, yet incidental mortality in a late season C&R fishery is not.

Does this look to you, as it does to me, that the least obtrusive form of fishing, C&R for wild fish, is singled out as unimportant socially and economically - and therefore can be blown off - while fishing that serves a higher and better social and economic good, that is, lethal fishing for surplus hatchery production, is so important to society that it justifies any incidental mortality impacts to the depressed wild populations, but the minimal impact C&R fishery lacks such merit? Whew! Long sentence; sorry. This makes me feel like fishery management regards those of us who revere the native steelhead populations, and think fishing should be wild steelhead release year round statewide, are freaks, totally out of touch with our society’s values, and that disregarding our interests is of no consequence.

We can appeal to the WDFW Commission, but I don’t envision a positive outcome. Probably see you guys on the ‘Duc and Hoh. Save me a rock to stand on, OK?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Hopefully this can help answer some of the questions out there. I agree that pointing fingers isn't going to help our cause here. As for methodology on run assessment, while some of the factors (such as smolt counts as indicators of returns, and basing return projections on the last two year's returns) are faulty at best, the counting of fish appears to use the same method year to year, and while the number "6500" may not be an accurate number, at least the methods used to reach numbers like "2800" are the same and in relative terms, reasonably accurate. On the Skykomish, their counts are based on aerial survey of the main river and a combination of walking and floating the tributaries. These counts are based on a time period from early March well into May. In other words, they aren't counting every single fish, but they do get a pretty good indication of the run size relative to other years. Also, where tribal netting is concerned, the Tulalips (as I understand it) have voluntrarily cut six weeks of this winter's season (in Jan/Feb) to reduce wild fish take. I list these above points not to make excuses for any party, but to help us sport fisherman focus our arguments in places where we can be most effective. Also, as long as a certain percentage of us (sportfisherman) continue to be extremely opposed to C & R, the powers that be will view us as a divided and disorganized constituency. As I've heard from the fisheries management people, "Hey, you guys have to work out the problems within your community on your own." I personally am crushed by the closure, and am wondering what to do--I hope someone on this board has some suggestions. My sympathies also go out to all the guides and shops that make a living on our March/April fishery--while I spend 40-50 days on the river during this time, it's purely recreational. Anyway, I don't think anybody is out to screw us, they're just doing what they think is best for the fish. We may not agree with the reasons they have for closing it, and maybe we can find some compelling arguments for keeping it open (such as an extremely robust return of hatchery 2-salts this year, indicating improved ocean conditions, or the tiny amount of incidental mortality in C & R, or the financial importance of this fishery to guides and shops, etc...), but I'm pretty sure pointing fingers and blame isn't going to get us anywhere. Hope this helps, and as I said, anybody with ideas, please post or e-mail me. Thanks.

Well said Skookum.

This is purely my opinion and nothing else. I have no background in this thing and have no scientific evidence to back up anything. It is my understanding that the bulk of the nates are in the river and sitting either on possible spawning grounds or are actively sitting on redds during the normal c&r season on the Sky. I also understand that at that same time most of the brats are in the hatchery or are attempting to spawn naturally. Based on that info one could presume/assume that during the mar/apr c&r season it will/is a targeted fishery directed at the nates. All you need to do to confirm this is look at STS, F&H News, the Everett Herald for all the stories about the BIG NATES that are just waiting to be caught! We can't have it both ways folks. I love to fish steelies(don't catch many) as much as the next person but if the numbers aren't there we must err on the side of safety. For the sake of the fish. This is not saying we are to just roll over and let WDFW put the bone to us. We need as a group with one voice to keep WDFW's nose to the grindstone for answers as to why they, knowing there were escapement issues, have allowed a kill fishery the last couple of years! I personally would support a year round wild steelie release. As far as the guides go. Nail the state for disaster relief just like they do for the commercials every year. I do think that c&r is a viable management option in some instances as long as there is proper angler education to minimize impact/mortality on these fish. But again if the numbers don't support the fishery we have to leave them alone.

Lots of discussion and that's great, but it's a done deal. Just got off the phone with Pete Castle and he said the director signed on the dotted line on Tuesday. It will be announced to the media on November 20th. Time to switch gears. Sucks, but that's the way it is.