I was fishing the Blue Creek hole the other day and was wondering what if any is the benefit of using the extremely long leaders a bunch of the guys use. A lot of guys were using leaders that were at least 6-7 feet long with tiny corkies and usually no yarn. They were catching fish and I was curious what they accomplish that my 3 foot leader does not? They must feel more confidence this way in order to endure the agony of tight quarter casting of such a long leader.

Its called flossing. The funny thing is I fish that way at blue creek/the point too. It seems about 50/50 hooked from the inside out. Most flossed fish will be hooked from the outside of the gillplate in. The theory is the 6-10ft leader is srung out and the line gets caught in the fishes mouth you feel em' when the line gets tight and the hook gets em' in the gillplate or near there. Many think its not good sport, but many people haven't fished sockeye in alaska either.

Suonds like snagin to me.

Suonds like snaggin' huh! Well why do 99.9% of fished hooked at the HATCHERY TERMINAl FISHERY BLUE CREEK come to the bank on 5ft or greater leader. Canyon Man why dont you tell him how long our leaders were when Doug, you , and I hooked 25+ fish in 5 hours. If its snagged I put it back, end of statement. If its hooked in the mouth, mising a fin, and its bright the fish is dead.

long lining, flossing, sockeye fishing is snaging them in the mouth. it is a method use to catch fish buy people who are not smart enough to figure out what the fish want. snaging steelhead thats what the sport is all about.

Have you fished at Blue creek at all? It is a catch & kill fishery! Bob and Kent cant you guys get those sockeye to bite? I guess bob's a snagger too. My point here is there are some fisheries where that is the standard. Blue creek is one of those, and I have taken many fish there that have gobbled my offering. Like I said earlier its about 50/50 hooked legit to flossed. I'm not saying snagging is OK and maybe my previous post dont help me here. Nowhere else in the state do I sit in the cold all day with a long leader. AND I posted on this thread to tell Monty why everybody with fish was fishing a 6ft leader. So like it or not the people landing fish are fishin' 6ft leaders, I guess nobody can actually find what they want. Or maybe that how ya' fish blue creek if you want to bring a few home.

Flossing, lining, whatever you want to call it, you aren't actually catching the fish (it doesn't willingly take the "bait"). While it may be a "gray area" in some people's minds, you can be written a citation for keeping a fish caught that way if it is hooked OUTSIDE of the mouth. However, it is pretty rare to see a citation written for it, especially at a place like Blue Creek. What it really boils down to is personal ethics - and that is your own decision.

Snagging-a method in which the fish does not willingly except the offering. I don't think these fish ar biting the line on purpose. I have seen places where fish just don't chose to bite and I have accepted it and left them alone. It's to bad some have to catch fish using illeagal methods. I thought that you could be fined if your leader was longer than twenty-four inches.

Huntar your right its personal ethics! And at blue creek thats not a selling point. I get great joy out of working a river and reading water. Backing up those plugs, fishin' pocket's with bait. BLUE CREEK IS NOT ONE OF THOSE!!!!!!!!

Before anyone else jumps down my throat about this remember I was trying to tell MONTY why people were fishin long leaders. I'm not trying to start my own steelhead club LLA long-liners-anonymous. So back-off and shut up. I don't want this to be a long thread that turns into a pissing match.

This flossing theory has a few major flaws. You would think that the long leader gives you a better chance of flossing the fish but think again. For one, in order to do this you line must be at the same level as the fish. Secondly, what are the chances that your long leader will enter the fish's mouth. Finally, I like to ask you, have you ever hook a fish at the end of the drift? I tell you that I have and many of my catches are at the end of the drift. So how in the heck the fish is being flossed if it is right behind your leader? Think about this and I'll tell you my theory of the extra long leader. I do use extra long leader and it works any where and for any level of river dept.

I have posted a very honest question with no intention of stirring things up. I buy the flossing theory. But I constantly have inner-self debates over the optimum leader length. So, I was interested in any advantages of the long leader other than flossing. I also fished the inside of bend straight accross from blue creek the day before (you know where the jet boat parade begins) and saw a couple of guys catch some nice steelhead essentially bank fishing using the same long leader approach. The main reason I ask is that I see some very competent fishermen using the long leader.

As far as flossing goes this fall I went to fish a shallow salt water area for chum and all the fly fishing guys did really well (9 foot leaders stripped accross the school of fish). I essentially was using drift gear (small corkie, yarn, 18" leader, small lead). I was using all the right colors but didn't do very well. The next day I used a leader in the same length as the fly guys with just green and chartreuse yarn and I did as good as anyone. I only fished a hour or so but landed 4 fish. Two of the fish the hook was on the outside of the mouth and 2 of the fish the hook was inside the mouth. I still think I flossed all of them but it is my belief that sometimes a flossed fish will look legal. (all fish were caught and safely released)

This is a very sensative issue. I used to fish with a noodle rod and I have read many books on different techniques. Up in lake michagian they use leaders as long as ten feet for salmon and steelhead. They say that these long leaders are necessary if you weren't going to spook the fish. Maybe they were flossing the fish, maybe they weren't. I talked to a hatchery worker on the Kalama and he told me how to "leagaly snag fish" It was kind of like plunking only that instead the leader was five or six feet long with a corky tied in back of the hook. If you hook a fish outside of it's mouth chances are you snagged it.

BK ... Kenai / Kasilof sockeye fishing vs. ling steelies is like comparing apples and oranges.

While I don't personally fish the Kenai n(which gets about 700,00+ reds), the Kasilof receives around 250,000 sockeye annually ... and of 250,000 fish that come up the river, we get maybe one or two reds to 'bite' out of about 400+ rod days when the reds are running. Simply put ... they don't bite.

Steelhead and other salmon species (or even sockeye in some watersheds such as the 'Duc) do bite ... and in my eyes that's the big difference.

Personally, I don't have any problem lining fish that you know are not going to bite no matter what you do ... I do however, have a problem with lining fish that just may not be biting well that day (such as stacked steelies at Blue Creek). Encountering slow bites is part of fishing ... and for me, it's not just about having a couple of fish on the bank, it's about getting the fish to bite. I don't think the situations are even close to the same and can't be compared, period.

I knew I'd get some rash for that. Anyways I backed myself into a corner. I do however think they share similarities. Blue creek and Kenai Redds are both meat hunter hang outs. Blue creek is not the place to be if your a purest

And I believe this thread came across wrong. I too enjoy in pursuit of steelhead, getting them to bite and reading water. But when I DO go to blue creek I'm havin' fun gettin' drunk with boys. Worrying if my fish was flossed or not isn't an issue. I dont go down there intending to floss em' I'm goin' on feel alone. Bum..Bump....set the hook! It really is that simple

I think the reg say that if a fish is hooked in the gill plate or eye and is legal to keep, then you are encouraged to do so.
I have hooked quite a few silvers from the outside in on a 15" to 24" leader. I think (and this is only a theory) that sometimes the fish bites the corky only and misses the hook. When I feel the hit on the corky, I naturally set the hook, which may or may not be in the mouth and if the planets are aligned and the moon is in the seventh house and the hook is lined up right it's fish on. I have no problem keeping a fish hooked in the mouth from the outside in. I believe that's why the regs have that stipulation in the rules.

Here's the difference:

In AK, snagging is legal for the reds on the Kenai.

In WA, all forms of snagging are illegal. <PERIOD>

You are *NOT* allowed to keep any snagged fish in WA, regardless of where you snagged it.

It's all there in the WDFW Fishing Regulations. I think a lot of people need to sit down and actually read the regulations.

Parker

[This message has been edited by parker (edited 12-14-2000).]

As I read this thread for the second time I'm laughing just as hard as the first time. I'm normally fishing in the forks area or south, but I also beat the water at blue creek at least once a year, in fifteen + years I've foul hooked only a couple fish and one was in the side clear back by the dorsal. I think that most of you that are saying that the fish here are snagged, probably don't fish there. For myself I can say MY FISH ARE HOOKED IN THE MOUTH!!. You can't tell me that I'm "flossing" these fish when I'm at the bottom of my drift shooting 4 to 5 feet of line down the slot, maybe these fish are yawning as I shoot them line and that's how I hook them in the mouth, get real !!. I know guys that fish there that are very good fisherman, and they hook their fish IN THE MOUTH, my family that fish there with me hook their fish IN THE MOUTH. For myself I'm not crazy about fishing the Cowlitz, but it's a sure bet to get a couple of hatchery slabs in the smoker for the Holidays. So be careful on who you call a snagger.

BillyBob, the reason why you are allowed to keep fish hooked in the tounge gill plate or eye is because these are fatal injuries to fish. If it's hooked in the eye it can'e see predators very well. If it's hooked in the toungue or gill plate it will bleed to death. I can't begin to count how many silvers I've cought in area nine that were hooked in the tounge and would bleed to death.

You guys are missing the point about snagging, flossing, and extra long leader. Snagging is when you hook a fish any where else except the head area. And is is done by setting the hook at random and intentionally. However some fish are initially hooked on the mouth but then gets snagged as the hook is released and catches the body. An the theory of flossing is totally false. Think about it, its just simple physics. The only flossing being done should be at the point b/w the main line and the lead, because this junction is the only thing that can flow diagonal with the current. Your leader no matter does not have a cross flow with the current. Your leader and lead is flowing with the current no matter where you are drifting. The long leader works best because your hook is at the same level as the fish. This is because of the water condition (ie. depth and flow rate).

In British Columbia there is a floss fishery on Fraser River Sockeye. Guys fish 7-10 foot leaders and hook fish in the mouth mostly. Most guys like to think that the fish are takin the offering but the problem with that theory is that the Fraser runs dirty with visibility at 3-6 inchers. The fish don't even see your wool/corkie. The long leader sweeps the gravel, and cover more water than a short leader, resulting in more hookups. Any guy fishing a corky alone should know that during his drift the chance of the corky sliding up the hook is great...the corky is rarely on the hook. To floss steelhead is a joke...steelhead are an aggressive fish, where as sockeye are with a few exceptions non biters. I've read about this Blue creek in STS and it sounds like a pathetic excuse for a fishery.

Long live the foam float.

Blue creek may sound pathetic but they plant around 3/4 million smolts!!!! The most in washington by 3 times. At one point the SPORT CATCH was 30,000.

I'm going to throw my hat in on this one. I have fished the infamous Blue creek in the past(Not since the slide)and I don't buy into the flossing/lining/snagger theory in this kind of water. myself, I use what you would call traditional leader length, always, But I have witnessed the 6"+ leader practice and from what I've seen they are usually very plainly hooked in the chops. I don't know why it works there; maybe the fish are suspended or? don't have the answer why, just know that it does work there and they usually are not snagged. And not to promote the practice of lining fish does the reg book not state hooked above the gill plate is legal? I think it's a fine line between what legal and ethical fishing practices are. Legal practices are simple they are in the reg. book, ethical practices are up to the individual, and at one point or another we have all moved that line just a little.

20 pounder hatchery fish hooked from the outide of the maxila inward, you trowing it back? Yea right!

I have found the long leader t owork well on the Cowlitz and other rivers. A simple test in low clear water will show you that it can play a very important part in hooking fish that are a little spooky. such as a steelie in a small creek. I have seen salmon and steelhead swim around my gear many times when it came to them. but when a LONG leader was used they would stick around untill it hit them and then they would spook. I did this from a bridge on a small river last fall with some steelies that would not bite. they never did but my point is long leaders are not always snaging gear. they have a purpose. I have a book on noddle roding and it tells how important LONG leaders are.
I did very well at Barrier this year with a long leader and a single tiny corkie. sometimes in the egg loop on a small hook and other times above the hook with a few fine threads of yarn above it just to keap it from floating up the line. the egg loop worked best. but I was useing small hooks to try and keap from snaging.

if long leaders work for you then more power. I normally start with about 18" and work my way out to maybe 6'

dcrzfitter

dcrzfitter,
Your response was more of what I was looking for in my question. Thanks for the tip. The way I see it is if the water is fairly fast and clear so I need a small corky I want to use a longer leader in order to get the hook out of the rocks. When I know I'm going to use bait in clear situations I like to go longer than if I'm going straight corky and yarn to give my bait a little more lift. I'd say most my leaders range from 24" to 48". The only time I go to six feet is if I'm drifting flies for summer runs. In dirty water I go with bigger corkies so I shorten my leader to get the hook down. I guess I look at what size of offering the water requires, then look at the speed of the water, then adjust my leader length in order to get the hook in the strike zone. I know there are a myriad of variables but is this a logical approach?
I almost forgot, I got a #15 buck at blue creek yesterday. He spanked a glob of eggs and small corky with a 4' leader. I fished around some really nice people, and thanks to the stranger willing to go out of his way to net my fish!

[This message has been edited by Monty (edited 12-15-2000).]

you got it. it's all about adjusting to the conditions. a good rule that I have been told and need to try to follow more myself is this- 15 cast with no action and it's time to move on to the next thing. with spinners maybe try another color or whieght or size. with corkies and yarn change colors size or leader length. the same with bait go smaller or larger or what ever change you might wanna try but the key is to allways be changing something if you arn't getting action. for me leader length and size of what ever I have on the end of the line is the first thing I change.

Actually the Fraser River sockeye fishery is not a floss fishery. I fished everyday of the opening with a 2-3 foot leader and did extremely well. I know I wasn't flossing fish. Unfortunately guys like Pothead haven't really thought out this flossing thing too well. Fish all around the world are caught in coloured water conditions and nobody says they're flossed.