Maybe not on the coast where still to this day most of the rivers are flooded with hatchery smolt plants and massive amounts of straying occurs. In other places where hatchery smolt plants have been extremely reduced or eliminated it's showing native numbers rebounding and in some places exceeding escapement. But I get the greed of the almighty steelhead fisherman, nothing better than a chambers creek brat for an epic battle and table fare...

Stop planting the hatchery steelhead and the natives will return.

But as Illahee would say, I'm just an arm chair biologist and I don't know [Bleeeeep!]....

Keith

DIbs on the front seat!!!!!!



Oh, well this makes it all better. Fish the way FleaFlicker02 has been fishing for years. Problem solved!

Man, I hope you don't fish like sh!T. It's bad enough that I have to fish the way you've been doing it for your years now, but if you're only hooking 1 or so steelhead a year, because you suck..... FML!



Anyone care to tell me why these new regulations are going in to effect on the 14th?

I thought this was all to protect the wild fish. How many wild fish are in the coastal systems now? Not many.

Only thing this regulation is doing now is screwing over those trying to get one of Sthdr1's chamber creek brats. Ok, not really screwing over because one really can't get screwed over with a brat/turd/banana.

Why not put these regs in to effect...oh I dunno, say Jan 1?

Evo - the walk-in tribal guides are already packed in to places like Cook Crick and the Salmon. It's already stupidly crowded and I don't see that increasing or changing. It's always going to be stupid crowded on those rivers and this regulation won't effect that.

As for the Quinault, it's generally only fishable if and when the lake doesn't turn over and puke out the river. It's never a flow issue. Back when I used to fish it, the lake would stop turning over around late Feb and the river would be fished from March-April for the most part. There isn't going to be big push of new tribal guides that can boat that river.

I wouldn't expect any more guides on the Queets either.

I agree, sure would love to be in on the WDFW conversation with the December 14, 2020 date.......doesn't make good sense to me !!!!!! Sure hope WDFW has a plan to truck the Wynoochee trap hatchery steelhead back down the river to give sportsmen a 2nd or 3rd chance at them ?????? If not, then LOTS of hatchery steelhead will be "trucked above the dam", grrrrrrrr what a waste !!!!

In fairness to the closure, it completely contradicts the concept of removing as many hatchery turds as you can from the system to prevent spawning with natives. But then again, if you are forced to fish from the bank do the harvest numbers really drop much? I'd say yes, if pressure drops and less people choose to go fishing.

Is this just a Covert Covid operation to reduce the spread of the illness on the rivers?

Keith

I've been doing my part for quite some time now, I don't catch much and mostly just get in the way of the guys that do.

(only half kidding)

Remind me again what rivers are being closed on the 14th?

None.

So why the emergency regulation against the coast now?

Who came up with the brilliant idea that just because a certain river is "under escapement" that the pressure from that river will move to the coast?

The same people that fished the under-escaped river last year, will continue to fish it this year. They are not going to just magically decide to fish only the coastal rivers.

Would be one thing if the state were closing down these under escapement rivers to all fishing and bringing about these new anti-boat regulations, but they are NOT.

No rivers have been closed.

If they are under escapement, why are they still open to fish now or past the 14th?

IF A RIVER IN OUR STATE IS UNDER ESCAPEMENT, CLOSE IT DOWN ON THE 14th.

This just reeks of a special interest group attack on fishing regulations (again). I want to know who the asshole is who talked to the other asshole in the WDFW to get this bullsh! passed.

I'm really shocked that a lot more of you really don't seem to care that much about how the WDFW is just continually fvcking you over.

Look up the word "precedence" in the dictionary. Because this is what this is....and this isn't good.

I'm starting to get the sense that you like to steelhead fish out of boats.

fb

DEFUND THE WDFW PENSION COLLECTING AGENCY!!!!!!!!!!

THEY FAILED.

i wonder when the park is going to follow suit. Anyone heard?

I’d like to know what the difference in mortality is between a fly fisher that has to battle a steelhead for a long duration vs someone in a boat that can net for a quick release.

I'm more concerned with the studies that have eliminated standard gear fisherman and no signs of improvements. Selective gear rules are nothing more than to eliminate the game hogs...

Just goes to show tactics used has little if anything to do with survival and populations. It's a much bigger problem that no one wants to acknowledge..

Keith

what it sounds like they"re trying to get rid of the boat ho's =)

I obviously don’t post here much but for some reason I’m feeling compelled to. I’m sure I'll be called out for whining, sour grapes, whatever, and that's likely true, but I am also just so surprised at the reaction from many on here. Full disclosure, yes, I am one of those lowly fishing guides that this will majorly impact. I live in a town that rhymes with dorks and pretend to guide there year around. I understand that I am a commercial entity making a living off of a public resource. Many of you may not agree with that and I understand that argument for sure. I’m not here to change anyone’s mind in regards to liking or not liking guides and I'm certainly not going to waste my breath looking for sympathy in the way my livelihood is being affected. I would however, like many of you to consider WDFW’s role in these new regulations from another perspective and to shed some light on how I feel we aren't being properly managed.

First and foremost, as it relates to the Quileute system… WDFW has always managed steelhead fisheries under the maximum sustainable harvest model. Under those guidelines the Quileute system has a forecast of 9276 steelhead. That forecast is 3376 fish over escapement. Traditionally that would mean that sport anglers have 1,688 fish to harvest through a catch and release fishery and the tribal co-mangers have 1,688 fish to harvest in their commercial gill net fishery. The tribe has stated plainly that they see no reason for increased conservation measures and they plan to operate their fishery as such. Why is WDFW disagreeing with that stance? WDFW is using creel data that would suggest that anglers catch 4000-5000 steelhead a winter in the Q system (Keep in mind this comes entirely from 2014 and prior creel data before we moved to no bait, barbless hooks ect.). Using the 10% mortality figure (that again, has not changed since we went to no removal of wild steelhead from the water, no bait, barbless hooks, only 1 hook) agreed on between the state and tribe, thats 4-500 dead steelhead. Far below the number we would be allowed to harvest while still meeting WDFWs escapement goal. If all the shift in pressure from Grays Harbor led to twice as many fish being caught (I would hope we can logically agree that wouldn't happen) we would still comply with our management objectives.

So by those numbers, we clearly have the numbers to support a full season on the Q system. We fished on similar numbers last year and the year before on the Hoh and met escapement as well. WDFW justification for further restrictions would be the closures to the Chehalis system (which now aren't happening even though those rivers are under escapement?) and not the projected numbers for the Q system. They will not answer to why they have suddenly, for the first time ever, decided to make a coast wide blanket restriction when they have always managed system by system. For everyone agreeing with this change in management, I would ask if you will be supporting the Skagit opening this winter. By this logic, the Sky is closed so the Skagit must be too regardless of return.

Now for the many elephants in the room. This decision they just made is obviously a big one. At a recent meeting with the board of WDFW commissioners, none of the commissioners had even heard mention of these rule changes despite having met with WDFW fisheries managers in a meeting just 2 days prior. This rule has a large impact to the economy of some rural towns. WDFW failed to reach out to our state senator Van De Wege or our other representatives to inform them as well. Personally, I'm disheartened that a decision of this magnitude is being made extremely quickly with very little input from so many stakeholders and without any economic considerations. How about you?

And of course, the biggest elephant of all. Does it seem odd to any of you that a couple special interest groups that just so happen to only fish from the bank, have been pushing hard for no fishing from floating devices since 2015 and now for the first time ever, without any number or studies to back it up, WDFW decides that this will be an effective tool to save wild steelhead? Is it okay to you, even if this doesn't immediately impact you, that minority special interest groups seem to have WDFW pushing their agenda now?

It is disheartening to me that as a group of passionate sportsmen, we are okay with the department making new rules that aren't backed by any good science showing that they will really help wild steelhead. In 2016 we were told that no bait and barbs would really help. 5 years later we are restricting ourselves further due to low returns. We were told that we needed to go to all catch and release and that the tribe wouldn't take those extra fish. They did so there was again, no savings. I have no personal beefs with any of those rules but I sure think we need to start getting a little more return for our sacrifices. We’ve seen declines in wild steelhead sate wide, we have closed rivers to all angling and they still fail to come back. At some point we need to stop being okay with further restrictions that we know won't help and insist that WDFW re evaluates the escapement goals on our rivers. Thats the only way, under the MSY model, to restrict any harvest and let more fish spawn. Otherwise we could have 30,000 show up to the Q system next year and the state and tribe will still feel the need to harvest that run down to 9,000.

Does anyone here truly believe that not fishing from a floating device will lead to an increase in wild steelhead returns in the future? I mean REALLY? And if you don’t, regardless of your feeling on greedy fishing guides or wether you have always bank fished anyways, you should be outraged. As a community of fisher people we need to support each other better. We need to care that someone that fished the Sol Duc for the last 45 years and won't be able to wade is going to be cut out of the fishery. Im sure every Puget Sounder can relate to that pain. I’m saddened that some kids won't get into this sport because of these regulations. We should care about the tradition of some of the best oarsmen on the planet that have navigated those rivers, the plug pullers, and the elderly and the disabled losing the ability to participate in wild winter steelhead fisheries for no return on their sacrifice. The ones that aren't affected by this should remember that the next rule out of left field might take away a fishery they love. We need to care about the small communities like Forks that will be devastatingly impacted by rules that won't have any bottom line savings of our fish in the long run.

And finally, we need to let WDFW know that when further restrictions are necessary, they implement them in the right way. A good example would be that somehow, to protect wild winter steelhead, you cannot fish from a floating device on the upper Hoh above Morgan’s for hatchery summer steelhead. Why? I guess because the WDFW wrote it in the regs wrong and despite it being pointed out multiple times, have failed to bother to amend that. Sure its not a high traffic area in the summer, but that doesn't mean it should be regulated for no reason. In this current case, there is no science backed reason for restricting fishing from a floating device for Bogachiel hatchery steelhead which WDFW claims they want caught and retained that I'm aware of. Motels, restaurants, and yes, even those indicator using, bead dragging, public resource abusing god damn fishing guides that have suffered losses due to covid, and are about to lose out again, shouldn't face the additional loss that not fishing from a boat will have when only hatchery steelhead are present.

Food for thought…

Sold the boat last week, traded in the PU for a car today and have started sorting out my gear for Craigslist or garage sale.

Well Mr. Paker, color me slow on the uptake since I didn't get all that from your reference to ". . . the ascot wearing Salmos of the world . . . "

You'll get no argument from me that the recreational angling community as a whole does nothing as WDFW steadily chips away at sport fishing opportunity. Except for me and a few other like-minded souls who contact WDFW and testify at WDFW Commission meetings to point out how the Department bites the very hand that feeds it. Part of how they do it successfully is by the incremental approach, closing a small niche here and one there, and by veiling closures under the false cloak of "conservation" when it's been shown to them that is provably not the case. Yet they keep chipping away.

Restrictions on fishing, per se, are not a problem nor THE problem. Absent restrictions we, as in all fishers, would fish every valuable stock to obliteration. Fisheries management, by its very definition, is the process of imposing a variety of restrictions on fishing. Some restrictions serve conservation purposes; others serve social purposes - liking spreading out the available catch among more citizens and license buyers. There's nothing wrong nor unseemly about that.

Steelhead populations continue to dwindle, but it is for reasons other than fishing in almost every case. Since fishing is not the proximate cause of steelhead population decline, it is nonsense to say that fishermen who care about wild steelhead should just stop fishing for them. And if fishermen stop fishing for steelhead and divert their attention to golf or tennis, who is going to advocate for wild steelhead? You may not have noticed, but I have; people who don't fish don't advocate for fish conservation. Most fishermen don't either, but that's a related buy separate point.

It really sounds like you're saying is that if steelhead fishing is so messed up that Paker can't fish the way Paker chooses to fish (from a boat with a guide), then it is time to close it all down, tribes included. You know enough to know how foolish that last part is. By federal treaty right, tribes will still be fishing for whatever is left long after the last sport fishing opportunity has been closed. That is settled case law. Your position looks to me a lot like the official position the Wildcat Steelhead Club took regarding the Skagit. They opposed the CNR special regs season that began for wild steelhead in 1981. Their view was (maybe still is) that unless the run could support a two wild steelhead harvest per angler per day, then the river should be closed to all fishing. Their way, or no way. You sound remarkably similar. The Wildcatters would forgo a whole lotta' sportfishing opportunity with their narrow steelhead world view.

In the present case of this season on the coast, WDFW said their objective is to reduce sport fishing encounters with wild steelhead. That is - reduce - not eliminate, which you would choose if you can't encounter them your preferred way. I posted previously that I read that something like 70% of the coastal steelhead encounters are by anglers fishing from boats. And a large proportion of that is from guide boats. Can you please name one action, other than complete closures, that does as much to reduce angling encounters with wild steelhead?

Steelhead runs are not healthy. And this regulation won't make them healthier, at least not by statistical significance. However, by reducing encounters and their associated incidental mortality (conservatively calculated at 10% but more likely in the 4 - 5% range), it's realistically possible that significantly more steelhead will survive to spawn in 2021.

Good job of getting your thoughts down. You gotta to learn to shoot from the hip though so you can fit in!

We'll just disagree on this one Keith. Generally speaking, hatchery steelhead don't do anything positive for wild steelhead. In the case of western WA wild winter steelhead, very few hatchery steelhead spawn with wild steelhead. Genetic introgression does occur, but not to a very high degree, and certainly not enough to be a major factor limiting wild steelhead population abundance. Yes, there are cases where adding or removing hatchery steelhead is correlated with negative or positive changes in wild steelhead abundance. In the majority of those cases, the same identical swings in wild steelhead abundance also occurred in river systems where hatchery steelhead have always been absent. We need to be careful about asserting causation with correlation because it does not always hold.

The proximate cause of declining steelhead populations is the very significant reduction in marine survival dating to the early 1990s. Which happens to inversely correlate with the increasing abundance of pinipeds in WA waters, especially Puget Sound. And fairly recently this correlation has been shown to be one of the causes for decline. Other factors appear to be things like ocean upwelling (the blob of 2015) and PDO. The longer term proximate cause of declining wild steelhead populations has been freshwater habitat degradation. When you account for the swings in wild steelhead abundance in rivers that don't have hatchery steelhead, the stocking of hatchery steelhead moves quite a ways down the list of factors affecting wild steelhead population abundance.

Survive, quite possibly. But if they hit the redds with a stray or hatchery fish the point of even making the spawning bed is useless and renders a reproductive fitness near ZERO... There is so much evidence pointing towards this statement being accurate and we all turn a blind eye. We as mankind can't fix this problem, mother nature needs to fix it's self.

I fought the thought 12-15 years ago, but there is so much evidence that shows it to be true.

Get rid of hatchery fish and brood stock programs and someday we could have a population that could be well above escapement allowing more opportunity to fish over them with methods we choose to use.

Keith

You're right. Well not so much special interests attacking fishing regulations, but special interests that think some fishing is preferable to no fishing. Maybe even some guides who generally fish out of boats.

Statistically speaking, no significant difference. Fishing from a boat, regardless of gear type, often results in a quicker landing than fishing from shore. Steelhead resist being pulled toward shallow water along the shoreline, and they like to try to hide under boats, sometimes making for a real quick net job, well before the fish is played out. Nonetheless, mortality rates are about the same. Playing the fish a bit longer is irrelevant during the winter season because water temperatures are low, and lactic acid build up is not an issue. The primary factor affecting mortality is hook placement. Fish hooked in the corner of the jaw usually survive, even if handling is otherwise pretty bad. Fish hooked in the gills or eye are the most likely to die.