Yup I remember CM and in particular recorded minutes then put in writing. If I recall that is how you came to take the minutes as some staff about had a stroke about them as we recalled things.

I think you may recall, too, that even after having hard copies of minutes (this and other forums) that they "lost" their copies.

Disappearing ink/paper?

so what was their pre forecast for the Chehalis and tribs?

120k coho chinook 12400 and change chum all good

In discussion among some of a group of friends the question of late Coho was shall we say lively so to boil it down the following. The Chehalis Coho the Satsop late production of smolts is around 200k and the upper basin Skookumchuck mitigation is 300k late timed Coho.

This is a huge portion of the marked Coho but most return in December & January. As this is outside the November 30 cut off for the NOF season setting process so it is not part of the conversation.

Why not? Yes the tribal Steelhead season starts in Dec but are few Steelhead present since the end of the planting of early timed hatchery Steelhead. Yes one should be concerned about the status of Wild Native Late Coho but C&R could reduce mortalities and if necessary gear restrictions. Steelhead the same but the percentage of the wild Steelhead run present in those months is rather small so the number of wild Steelhead mortalities would be very small.

In the ZOOM forecast meeting staff mentioned that they were going to have a conversation with the QIN. Our conversations boiled down are kind of like this. Why does WDFW allow the QIN to dictate state recreational salmon seasons? Yes December is within their season for Steelhead but nets are non-selective so they are a no go. Why do all salmon season setting conversations have a November 30 end date when a substantial portion of the marked Coho return in Dec & Jan?

I always fall back on what the tribal folks I worked with said “everybody fishes or nobody fishes”. Others went with the question why do the QIN get to dictate state Rec seasons that do not violate conservation standards accepted in other parts of the state? Do not violate the court mandated sharing?

I could go but I am looking for other thoughts on this issue and not the emotional you dirty rat but rather ideas based on experience around this or similar issues. The Chehalis season has been reduced to more or less a six-week season depending on location, fish movement, and weather. Any conservation issues in Dec & Jan can be readily addressed so just what is driving WDFW on this issue?

Thoughts?

I don't think the Court actually "Mandates" sharing in the sense that most people understand the word mandate. Rather, the Courts tell us what sharing is absent some other (theoretically) bi-lateral agreement. Which is why the Tribes now regularly exceed 50%.

But I hark back to what Phil Anderson (the pre-Director Phil) said at a public meeting with the Steelhead and Cutthroat Policy Advisory Group. I took the minutes, so it is in the minutes. He was asked why WDFW would not open a steelhead C&R fishery on the Hoh for the last half of April. The Tribe had no harvest left with the NI side had some. Phil's answer was that "We got the fishery we wanted." Never would answer who "we" was or why harvestable fish were left on the table.

My personal thoughts are that the State (not WDFW but whole political structure) is unwilling to challenge the tribes on any grounds. State won't tell us why, but that's my read.

Why would anyone challenge the tribes in this current climate? Tribes know they are in the drivers seat. We're way beyond that now. Would be employment suicide. The confrontaional approaches lose in court. That's a given. Better to not live in the past and develope positive relations with all the tribes. Round table empowerment kumbaya's. Need a group of negotiators that can schmooze them into what they and we want at the same time. Happens in business every day. And it's going to take a long time because the tribes/Quinaults currently don't trust or like the state. Might take a generation to change that. Sad for us oldies waiting for something to change. We don't have the time to wait.

I remember last November the QIN had stopped netting coho but WDFW allowed the recs to continue to fish for coho in the Chehalis system. The QIN complained that they had stopped netting because of concerns for the wild coho and that WDFW was going to damage the wild coho run by allowing a coho sport fishery during November. But most people knew the real reason for the QIN to stop netting was the low prices they were getting for their fish.
Then toward the end of November WDFW closed the sport fishery because (they said) they were concerned with the recs hooking wild steelhead in December while fishing for late coho. Like RG said, people who know the Chehalis system know that very few steelhead enter the system in December. Large late timed coho were entering the Satsop when WDFW closed it near the end of November.

So, on the Satsop, here are the coho surplus totals and egg take totals as of 2/7/24.
Early timed coho (Bingham and Satsop Springs combined)
30,158 surplus hatchery coho, 2,046,800 eggs taken (Bingham).

Late timed coho (Bingham):
3230 surplus hatchery coho, 684,000 eggs taken

Total surplus hatchery coho on the Satsop :
33,388

In 2022, over 50,000 hatchery coho were surplused on the Satsop.

Not allowing us to fish in December-January (at least in the tribs, where the tiny chance of encountering an upper Chehalis wild steelhead drops to near zero, and when coho are on track to meet escapement) is a head-scratcher. If I remember right, just a few years ago, the justification for shutting us down early was concern for wild, late coho. Early, wild steelhead have not been anything close to abundant for decades, yet they were never part of the conversation while there were lower coho returns to point to.

Curious. Not necessarily nefarious, but certainly curious.

I keep coming back to the long-term memory that Rivrguy has. I seem to remember, and this was probably pre-merger, that WDF maintained there were no summer Chinook in the watershed until such time as the recs wanted a fishery; probably on summer steelhead. Suddenly, there were summers that needed protection. I also have talked to other folks in WB who have to protect Bull Trout in their tiny creek. And, there was some habitat along I-5 in the Chehalis watershed that required protection for wolverines.

CM it is said that you must know where you came from to know where you are to know where you’re going, same with fish. For Chinook most do not know of the Schafer Park hatchery that reared Chinook pre 1950 when Bingham was built. The East Fork Satsop was a Chinook stream and with a early timed Chinook or summers. Eggs got transferred to upper Chehalis to the old hatchery on Fish hatchery road and one year the 5 million egg transfer perished due to facility failure. Another grabber was the transfer of the Humptulips Hatchery Chinook to the Springs on the EF Satsop to be reared to yearlings and released. The agency refused to recognize that the Chehalis has Summer Chinook for many years as they simply wanted only a Fall Chinook designation. That thought fell apart when fall Chinook numbers said good to go but nope we now had to protect summer Chinook.

Our run timings are not close in numbers in a particular month now after many years of human manipulation. I was told that when Simpson Hatchery (now Bingham) started that they did not take Late Coho until very late Dec or Jan which is not the case now. Our late hatchery Coho are a hybrid cross between normal timed fall Coho and lates. Even the wild EF Satsop Lates are a hybrid due to many years of returns that jumped the weir or came into the holding pond prior to mass marking.

It is my understanding that wild Late Coho are struggling and I do not doubt that. Then this they are not a concern when the QIN take them as incidental as we only have Coho not a early & late stock because they would have to manage for two stocks. Unlike early Coho (called normal timed) which endure weeks in warm water holding until rain come to spawn late Coho come right upstream in cold water. Mortalities from C&R are low and can be reduced farther by gear restrictions.

Prior to the combining of WDG & WDF I got into it with a WDG bio over the planting of early Steelhead for the tribal fisheries. I was told point blank that this was for the QIN fisher would get their share and not net the “native Steelhead”. When I responded that this was damaging the late Coho he told me that was WDF’s problem. That gentleman retired just a few years back from WDFW.

For you old timers this guy was the one that my wife blew her top about him screwing with local volunteers. So down to the old WDG office she went and got into a hell of an argument with him. They darn near called the cops on her and for years some staff introduced her as the lady who tried to kick -- --- ass!

Good for her! Maybe a bunch should show up at R6 office and kick some _ ss! Wake them up!

WDG could be particularly insular. More than a few times I had them complain to WDF that we had to consider steelhead in salmon fisheries and then turn around and ignore them in trout fisheries.

Back around 1980 WDG wanted to start a big hatchery rainbow program in Lake WA. WDF opposed it because of potential damage to the rearing sockeye. WDG's response was "OK, we'll stock walleye". Gotta sell them licenses.

That time of year and ocean options for 2024 ocean seasons. Staff got back to me on the Grays Harbor 2024 models but they are close to getting it done but just not there yet.

Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
March 11, 2024
Contact: Fish Program, 360-902-2700
Media contact: Mark Yuasa, 360-902-2262



WDFW seeks public input on 2024 proposals for Washington’s ocean salmon fisheries

FRESNO – Fishery managers have developed options for Washington’s ocean salmon fisheries that reflect lower numbers of several coho salmon stocks predicted to return this year.

The Pacific Fishery Management Council (PFMC), which brings tribal, federal, and state entities together to establish fishing seasons in ocean waters three to 200 nautical miles off the Pacific coast, approved three options for ocean salmon fisheries for public review. These ocean options will help inform other Washington salmon fisheries as the season-setting process continues.

“The options for ocean salmon fisheries this year reflect forecasts for Columbia River Chinook that are similar to last year,” said Kyle Adicks, Intergovernmental Salmon Manager for the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW). “The number of hatchery coho expected to return to the Columbia is lower than last year but should still provide good fishing opportunities. Fishery managers expect salmon returns of natural stocks, especially those under the Endangered Species Act, to be at low abundance, which will limit salmon fisheries in all marine and freshwater areas.”

The options for 2024 include the following quotas for recreational fisheries off the Washington coast:
Option one: 42,500 Chinook and 88,200 marked coho.
• Neah Bay (Marine Area 4): Open seven days per week from June 15 through earlier of Sept. 30, or 9,170 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 9,780 Chinook. No Chinook retention east of the Bonilla-Tatoosh line beginning Aug. 1.
• La Push (Marine Area 3): Open seven days per week from June 15 through earlier of Sept. 30, or 2,290 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 1,700 Chinook.
• Westport-Ocean Shores (Marine Area 2): Open seven days per week from June 22 through earlier of Sept. 30, or 32,640 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 18,060 Chinook.
• Ilwaco (Marine Area 1): Open seven days per week from June 22 through earlier of Sept. 30, or 44,100 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 12,960 Chinook. Buoy 10 fishery opens Aug. 1 with an expected landed catch of 22,000 marked coho in August and September.

Option two: 39,000 Chinook and 79,800 marked coho.
• Neah Bay (Marine Area 4): Open seven days per week from June 22 through earlier of Sept. 30, or 8,300 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 8,970 Chinook. No Chinook retention east of the Bonilla-Tatoosh line beginning Aug. 1.
• La Push (Marine Area 3): Open daily from June 22 through earlier of Sept. 30, or 2,070 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 1,550 Chinook.
• Westport-Ocean Shores (Marine Area 2): Open seven days per week from June 29 through earlier of Sept. 30, or 29,530 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 16,580 Chinook. Chinook retention is prohibited on Fridays and Saturdays during July.
• Ilwaco (Marine Area 1): Open seven days per week from June 22 through earlier of Sept. 30, or 39,900 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 11,900 Chinook. Buoy 10 fishery opens Aug. 1 with an expected landed catch of 27,000 marked coho in August and September.

Option three: 36,000 Chinook and 67,200 marked coho.
• Neah Bay (Marine Area 4): Open daily from June 22 through earlier of Sept. 22, or 6,990 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 8,280 Chinook. No Chinook retention east of the Bonilla-Tatoosh line beginning Aug. 1.
• La Push (Marine Area 3): Open daily from June 22 through earlier of Sept. 22, or 1,750 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 1,440 Chinook.
• Westport-Ocean Shores (Marine Area 2): Open five days per week (Sunday-Thursday) from June 30 through earlier of Sept. 22, or 24,860 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 15,300 Chinook.
• Ilwaco (Marine Area 1): Open seven days per week from June 29 through earlier of Sept. 22, or 33,600 marked coho subarea quota with a subarea guideline of 10,980 Chinook. Buoy 10 fishery opens Aug. 1 with an expected landed catch of 32,000 marked coho in August and September.

Under these scenarios, fishery managers will monitor the number of salmon recreational anglers catch and may close earlier than the above dates, if quotas are met. For more details about the options, visit PFMC's webpage.

Chinook and coho quotas and seasons that the PFMC approved will be part of a comprehensive 2024 salmon-fishing package, which includes marine and freshwater fisheries throughout Washington. State and tribal co-managers will complete the tentative 2024 salmon fisheries package in conjunction with PFMC during its April 6-11 meeting in Seattle. More information on meetings is available on PFMC’s website.
The collaborative state and tribal salmon season-setting process, known as North of Falcon (NOF), refers to waters north of Oregon’s Cape Falcon, which marks the southern border of Washington’s management of salmon stocks.

In addition to attending meetings, the public can participate in the state’s process including:
• Online comments: The public can now provide general comments on potential fisheries at WDFW’s North of Falcon public input webpage. Additional comment opportunities on specific seasons and fisheries will be available as forecasts and proposed season summaries are made available.
• Virtual meetings and daily briefings: During the final days of negotiations, state fish managers plan to hold briefings each day, which will be available via virtual meetings.
Fishery managers use public feedback on these options to negotiate a final season among states and tribes represented at PFMC, refined to incorporate preferences shared by the public.

WDFW’s NOF No. 1 meeting is Wednesday, March 13, 9 a.m., at the Office Building 2 Auditorium, 1115 Washington Street S.E. in Olympia. The meeting is available to watch via Zoom webinar. Participants must register in advance. The meeting will air on TVW Broadcast. For a full timeline of the WDFW public meetings with opportunities to participate and provide feedback, visit NOF public meetings webpage. Visit our NOF FAQs and Glossary Information for key terms and suggested resources. Follow the 2024-25 salmon season setting process, by going to the WDFW “Salmon Daily Digest” blog.
The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife works to preserve, protect, and perpetuate fish, wildlife and ecosystems while providing sustainable fish and wildlife recreational and commercial opportunities.

3/11/2024


I predict #2, again, I don't think its been anything else!!!!!

Staff has sent out the first models to those on their mailing list. The email below lays it out as to what is what with the numbers. If you do not want to wait email me and I will forward the models to you. It looks like Grays Harbor Chinook are short using 2023 seasons.


To All Interested Parties,

Please see the attached NALF excel planning model (NALF stands for “new abundances, last year’s fisheries”). The model includes the 2023 fisheries with this year’s forecasts. Also included is a copy of the Grays Harbor Escapements and 2024 Forecasts along with the Summary Tables from the NALF planning model. If you have any questions or fishery suggestions, please feel free to contact Mike Scharpf or myself at graysharbor@dfw.wa.gov or visit the online Public input page at Public input | Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife.

As a reminder, tomorrow March 13th is the North of Falcon No. 1: Statewide proposals public meeting. This is a hybrid meeting where you can attend in person at the following location (click address to view map): Office Building 2 Auditorium
1115 Washington St SE, Olympia, WA 98501 If you prefer to attend the meeting online please register for the meeting at the following link: Register for meeting. You can also watch the meeting through TVW at: TVW broadcast

Have a great day,

Kim Figlar-Barnes
WDFW – Fish Management
Grays Harbor Area F & W Biologist
360-249-4628 Ext. 235
Region 6 Office
48 Devonshire, Rd. Montesano, WA 98563

Couple of guys got the Willapa harvest model but not Grays Harbor so they asked if I had it? Nope and remember Willapa is only WDFW and Grays Harbor has a comanager the QIN. I am sure as soon as it is complete it will be provided to all of us. Some of us have questions regarding the available for harvest numbers. Take the Hump with this years forecast last years season natural Chinook are at 155 harvestable with 2869 escapement. Then this after harvest the hatchery escapement would 1929 but after the QIN got the escapement reduced it also dictates counting all regardless of origin in the natural gravel spawners. In 2023 the hatchery had a return of 599 so if 2024 was similar you have 1330 hatchery origin spawning in the gravel with the 115 unclipped for 1445 spawning in the gravel not 115. This makes a real difference for both the QIN and non-treaty fishers.

Time will tell! Oh before someone starts down the hatchery vs wild rabbit hole some advice... don't! The genetics of Hump Chinook are a history of many changes that most do not know and it is a real rabbit hole.