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#1054200 - 07/21/21 09:51 AM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13468
Originally Posted By: FoulhookedPink
. . .

So in order for your claim to be true. Someone would have to be a multimillionare who has no income, is homeless without even a tent or clothes to shelter them that has no ID uses no services whatsover owns nothing is uninsured has no power no phone doesn't travel except on foot doesn't use the mail or own any stock in any company somehow avoids jury duty and buys absolutely nothing except food from the grocery store that they travel to on foot while naked. Even then taxes are still paid by the grocery store in the form of B&O tax, income tax and property tax for the store plus the income & payroll tax for the employees not to mention all the taxes the other businesses that wholesale and transport the food pay. So whoops he can't even eat now either better go forage food but make sure you don't hunt any game or fish because the license on that is a tax. So eat bugs while naked I guess. You would have to refuse all government welfare, medical care and social security because taxes would be paid by the government employees that administer these programs. You'd have to store whatever form your wealth is in on your person while naked because if it's sitting in a safety deposit box, bank account or investment portfolio then there are definitely taxes being paid then. Plus the form of your wealth you are carrying around would have to be something created tax free, the only thing I can think of that's possible here is gold dust you gathered without any tools but how would you store multimillions worth of gold dust without even being able to buy a sack to put it in so maybe you found one big nugget worth multimillions and you store it in your hand with no security or weapons of defense when you are sleeping unsheltered and you could never sell or barter the nugget because taxes would have to be paid so you can't use your wealth other than holding it in your hand which you would have to do 24/7 365 days a year. You would also have to avoid dying somehow and figure out how to live forever without any medicines technology or tools other than what you can scrounge up from public forests because of estate taxes. If someone is a multimillionaire and actually lives like this I would be legitimately impressed to the point I wouldn't expect them to pay for anything because they don't use literally anything ever. Even Ted Kaczynski's lifestyle is more extravagant than that. I would say being a sasquatch is a possible lifestyle here but no you have people like Rich G spending resources that he is getting taxed on searching for you so you can't even be a sasquatch that may or may not even exist either because Rich G fvcked that up for you. You would somehow have to stop social workers from searching for you for those homeless census they do because yes social workers are paying taxes. So in addition to drinking from mud puddles eating bugs while naked holding a gold rock forever without dying nobody could know or even suspect that you exist. Also since you said multimillionaires there would have to be at least two people doing this. Then they would also have to kill me with their gold rocks because now that I have thought of the concept of these non tax paying multimillionaires that may or may not even exist I'm going to start looking for them which involves paying taxes, so even if they don't exist they are causing taxes to be paid. Also by killing me taxes would have to be paid because even if I disappeared some type of search would be done by someone which expends resources that causes taxes to be paid. So the fact that I exist and have thought up the concept of the non tax paying multimillionaires living naked in the woods somewhere that I will start looking for falsifies your claim because your naked gold rock multimillionaires can't kill me because killing me requires paying taxes. If they kill me they are paying taxes, if they don't kill me my search for them causes paying taxes. Either way some taxes will be paid thus multimillionaires that pay no taxes cannot exist.

. . .


Epistemology much?

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#1054202 - 07/21/21 09:57 AM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
Illahee Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 3771
Who reads that crap?
Rambling nonsense with no paragraphs.
Life's to short, just say no to dumb asses.

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#1054204 - 07/21/21 10:10 AM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13468
Originally Posted By: FoulhookedPink
Originally Posted By: Illahee
If these deadbeat billionaires payed their fare share of taxes college could be free.
Switching the tax code to tax wealth instead of income would help.


No, not even close. Lets say you took 100% of their wealth which is around $1.3 trillion. Figure a college degree costs around 100,000. That's 13 million college degrees. There are 19.6 million college students in the U.S. right now so even if those billionaires lose everything there still isn't enough to pay just for all the degrees just for the students we have now. Plus you can only confiscate 100% of their wealth once. Since we can't even cover all the degrees for the current student with that money but only 66% of them this year and 0% of them for the year after that because there is no wealth to confiscate because you already confiscated it and in the process destroyed and liquidated every company in America and destroyed the world economy and now you are starving to death. Was paying 66% of college degrees for one year worth it?

Taxing the billionaires won't work because of math.

. . .


That's right. Taxing or taking all of the wealth from the super rich does not work, exactly because of math. Taxing a fraction of wealth, like property taxes, works because it's repeatable, which is essential to a tax revenue stream. Graduated income taxes also work, for the same reason, they are repeatable and continue to contribute to the tax revenue stream.

Taking all of a person's wealth would probably dash the motivation to succeed for many. I doubt it would affect the super rich as much. These are people who are driven. Being super rich is just a by product of their drive to build, build an empire of some kind. I think if all their wealth was taken, they would just begin building their next empire, starting the very next day. It's just how they are, and I'm not suggesting we take all their wealth. As pointed out above, it's counter-productive.

Getting back to free college; it's a bad idea for a number of reasons. First off, "there's no such thing as a free lunch." (Milton Freedman) College gets paid for one way or another. If gov't picks up the tab, then there is no incentive for colleges to attempt to hold down cost increases. As it is, college costs have increased at an even higher rate than medical and health costs in the U.S. Technology is one reason I suppose, but status is another. It's really important at the country club I don't belong to, to brag about how ridiculously much I spend on my kid's college education. Stanford, Harvard, Yale, and all the Ivy League and similar schools do this. By charging the rich these high college costs, the schools are able to create their own system of socialism and offer scholarships to high aptitude students whose parents aren't rich. In effect, rich parents helped pay for my kids' college educations, and in return, those rich parents got the bragging rights at their country club.

There are several ways to hold down college costs. Student loan forgiveness probably isn't one of the best ways because it removes the incentive for a college to hold down its costs.

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#1054207 - 07/21/21 10:18 AM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: Illahee]
Streamer Offline
No Stars for You!

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: T-Town
Originally Posted By: Illahee
Who reads that crap?
Rambling nonsense with no paragraphs.
Life's to short, just say no to dumb asses.


Prime example of the Dunning-Kruger effect here.

Too stupid to evaluate situations at the level of detail necessary, so instead avoid it and claim it to be simpler than it is and call the other person a dumbasss. Great work shillster.


-Steamy
_________________________
“Obviously you don't care about democracy if you vote for Trump” - Salmo g.

Space Available! Say something idiotic today!


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#1054210 - 07/21/21 10:27 AM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
Illahee Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 3771
There's nothing to evaluate, you like to hear yourself talk.

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#1054211 - 07/21/21 10:32 AM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
Streamer Offline
No Stars for You!

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: T-Town
I like to read your posts even more. But they lack substance and I should stop keeping my hopes up that you will have something insightful to say.


-Steamy
_________________________
“Obviously you don't care about democracy if you vote for Trump” - Salmo g.

Space Available! Say something idiotic today!


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#1054213 - 07/21/21 10:34 AM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
Illahee Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 3771
Welchers are also stupid I guess.

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#1054214 - 07/21/21 10:37 AM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: Illahee]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6312
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Illahee
There's nothing to evaluate, you like to hear yourself talk.


Spoken like a true introvert....

Keith
_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


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#1054219 - 07/21/21 01:02 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
FishPrince Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 489
Wow salmo, you are sounding just like me there. Are you sure you want to be in the same side as someone like me who has a bunch of what you claim are such horrible opinions? For a milquetoast piece of human garbage that was a pretty good post.

They way I see it is that 0% of republicans are willing to pay for this and the overwhelming majority of democrats are unwilling to pay for it, but there is a small number of far left democrats that claim to want to pay for this but in practice are unwilling to pay for it themselves. No nobody is willing to pay for this and the only people that are outraged about college forgiveness are outraged about the fact that other people are not willing to pay for something they themselves are unwilling to pay for. So why no outrage at themselves? Nope they think they are morally superior because they hold an opinion. Holding an opinion is neither moral or immoral, it's what you do because of those opinions that's moral or immoral. So it's pointless virtue signaling. Being a mean nasty hateful bigot because you are outraged that other people aren't willing to pay for something you aren't willing to pay for is immoral though, not because of your opinion but the being a mean nasty hateful bigot part. Why is it the people who claim to be progressive virtuous and tolerant all happen to be mean nasty hateful bigots?

Space flights, billionaires existing and any other irrelevant things liberals bring up when asked difficult questions they can't or don't want to answer is a logical fallacy. It's just whataboutism, and is a well known propaganda technique. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

No whataboutism, no changing the subject, no logical fallacies. Nobody cares that you are envious of billionaires so you hate them to try and justify your greedy desire to loot and rob them.

How much money do you propose to spend on college loan forgiveness, where is that money now in society, what is the justification for that group of people and only that group of people paying for it. My take is that college is a service and the money for it is widely distributed in average everyday people but the group that should pay is the ones who took out the loans and the justification for that is they are the ones who wanted and used the service, agreed to pay for the service so they should pay for what they wanted, used and agreed to pay.

Todd and people like him should pay for college loan forgiveness. You deserve exactly as much government services as you are able and willing to pay for. College loan forgiveness is a government service and Todd you can have as much as that service you are able and willing to pay for. Since nothing is stopping you from paying for other people's college degrees right now, you are obviously willing to pay zero and that's the exact amount of college loan forgiveness you are going to get, zero. That's fair reasonable and the natural and logical outcome of your behavior. So cut the sh!t and quit being outraged over it and advocating for it. Just go back to saying mean nasty hateful things about republicans like the bigot you are because at least some of that is funny and you seem to enjoy it.

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#1054221 - 07/21/21 01:28 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
Jason Beezuz Offline
My Waders are Moist

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 3419
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: FoulhookedPink
They way I see it is that 0% of republicans are willing to pay for this and the overwhelming majority of democrats are unwilling to pay for it, but there is a small number of far left democrats that claim to want to pay for this but in practice are unwilling to pay for it themselves. No nobody is willing to pay for this and the only people that are outraged about college forgiveness are outraged about the fact that other people are not willing to pay for something they themselves are unwilling to pay for.


This portion is very well stated and is pretty much the same type of thinking that troubles me with a lot of libtarded stuff nowadays. It seems like people want others to provide for them what they are unwilling to provide for themselves. The justification could be anything but in the end it is asking for special treatment.
_________________________
Maybe he's born with it.

Maybe it's amphetamines.

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#1054222 - 07/21/21 02:15 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: FoulhookedPink

Todd and people like him should pay for college loan forgiveness. You deserve exactly as much government services as you are able and willing to pay for. College loan forgiveness is a government service and Todd you can have as much as that service you are able and willing to pay for. Since nothing is stopping you from paying for other people's college degrees right now, you are obviously willing to pay zero and that's the exact amount of college loan forgiveness you are going to get, zero. That's fair reasonable and the natural and logical outcome of your behavior. So cut the sh!t and quit being outraged over it and advocating for it. Just go back to saying mean nasty hateful things about republicans like the bigot you are because at least some of that is funny and you seem to enjoy it.


As noted...if it happens it "is" my money that will be paying for it...I actually do pay taxes, a lot of them, and if I have to pay them I'd rather they go for something that benefits me, or society, instead of rich people who don't need any help.

Poor effort, again.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#1054223 - 07/21/21 02:37 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: Todd]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6312
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Todd
Originally Posted By: FoulhookedPink

Todd and people like him should pay for college loan forgiveness. You deserve exactly as much government services as you are able and willing to pay for. College loan forgiveness is a government service and Todd you can have as much as that service you are able and willing to pay for. Since nothing is stopping you from paying for other people's college degrees right now, you are obviously willing to pay zero and that's the exact amount of college loan forgiveness you are going to get, zero. That's fair reasonable and the natural and logical outcome of your behavior. So cut the sh!t and quit being outraged over it and advocating for it. Just go back to saying mean nasty hateful things about republicans like the bigot you are because at least some of that is funny and you seem to enjoy it.


As noted...if it happens it "is" my money that will be paying for it...I actually do pay taxes, a lot of them, and if I have to pay them I'd rather they go for something that benefits me, or society, instead of rich people who don't need any help.

Poor effort, again.

Fish on...

Todd


Wouldn't that be nice, having our taxes go where we want them to go to... Rather, it's tax, over promise and under deliver...

Keith
_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


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#1054224 - 07/21/21 02:50 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: stlhdr1]
Streamer Offline
No Stars for You!

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: T-Town
Originally Posted By: stlhdr1
Originally Posted By: Todd
Originally Posted By: FoulhookedPink

Todd and people like him should pay for college loan forgiveness. You deserve exactly as much government services as you are able and willing to pay for. College loan forgiveness is a government service and Todd you can have as much as that service you are able and willing to pay for. Since nothing is stopping you from paying for other people's college degrees right now, you are obviously willing to pay zero and that's the exact amount of college loan forgiveness you are going to get, zero. That's fair reasonable and the natural and logical outcome of your behavior. So cut the sh!t and quit being outraged over it and advocating for it. Just go back to saying mean nasty hateful things about republicans like the bigot you are because at least some of that is funny and you seem to enjoy it.


As noted...if it happens it "is" my money that will be paying for it...I actually do pay taxes, a lot of them, and if I have to pay them I'd rather they go for something that benefits me, or society, instead of rich people who don't need any help.

Poor effort, again.

Fish on...

Todd


Wouldn't that be nice, having our taxes go where we want them to go to... Rather, it's tax, over promise and under deliver...

Keith


This would require government to be diligent with how they spend money. Governments are corrupt because corrupt people get into government, thus the importance of small governments to minimize corruption and waste. Bailouts first the rich, help for the poor, and nothing for the middle class that pays the taxes.

But people like Todd turn a blind eye to the inefficiencies and corruption of government. People like Todd love big government but hate greedy corrupt Republicans and turn a blind eye to the fact that Democrats do the same things and that corruption would be minimal if government was minimal in the first place.


-Steamy
_________________________
“Obviously you don't care about democracy if you vote for Trump” - Salmo g.

Space Available! Say something idiotic today!


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#1054225 - 07/21/21 02:59 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: Todd]
FishPrince Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 489
Originally Posted By: Todd
As noted...if it happens it "is" my money that will be paying for it...I actually do pay taxes, a lot of them, and if I have to pay them I'd rather they go for something that benefits me, or society, instead of rich people who don't need any help.


Another false dilemma. It's not spend trillions on college vs spend trillions on welfare for the rich. I don't want poor people getting welfare I don't want rich people getting welfare, in fact the rich probably receive more in welfare that the poor so are a bigger issue just because the dollar amount. But your dilemma is false because instead of arguing over who get what welfare about how about we just pay for neither, pay less in unnecessary taxes and people just get to keep more of their own money? Also again with the whataboutism which is an example tu quoque logical fallacy. Whatabout some rich person that is also doing something else I don't like doesn't is irrelevant and doesn't answer the question.

I never claimed you don't pay taxes, I know you pay a lot of taxes. Everybody pays a lot of taxes. We are taxed too much, and should pay less in taxes.

You can bitch on the internet about college loan forgiveness or you can whip out your checkbook and pay someone's loan off. Which one of those results in getting rid of more college loan debt? Be the change you want to see in the world. One step at a time. But by your actions I can see that you are unwilling to pay college loan forgiveness so why are you saying you are when really, you aren't?

You want to talk college forgiveness then lets talk about how "we" as a society decide to spend "our" money. Again, I ask, how much money do you propose to spend on college loan forgiveness, where is that money now in society, what is the justification for that group of people and only that group of people paying for it. But I am an adult and if you want to have conversations with adults you have to provide answers to reasonable questions. So please answer without any of the logically fallacies you use again and again. No false dilemmas, no whataboutism, no ad hominins. If you use fallacies, I'll call you out on it each and every time just as I have again and again. I'm starting to think you are incapable of any response other than logically fallacious ones.

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#1054226 - 07/21/21 03:03 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: Streamer]
FishPrince Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 489
Originally Posted By: Streamer
This would require government to be diligent with how they spend money. Governments are corrupt because corrupt people get into government, thus the importance of small governments to minimize corruption and waste. Bailouts first the rich, help for the poor, and nothing for the middle class that pays the taxes.

But people like Todd turn a blind eye to the inefficiencies and corruption of government. People like Todd love big government but hate greedy corrupt Republicans and turn a blind eye to the fact that Democrats do the same things and that corruption would be minimal if government was minimal in the first place.


This clear, convincing, compelling and logically consistent argument is going to get nothing more than an ad hominin attack, if you are lucky you might get a false dilemma fallacy or whataboutism fallacy too. Let's find out.


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#1054227 - 07/21/21 03:42 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Why would I attack a fallacious ad hominem attack with another one just like it?

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#1054228 - 07/21/21 03:46 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
FishPrince Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 489
Explain the fallacy in asking how much money do you propose to spend on college loan forgiveness, where is that money now in society, what is the justification for that group of people and only that group of people paying for it. Those are reasonable questions that any normal person would demand answers for to even consider college loan forgivneness.

Your refusal to answer is not even an argument. Maybe we should do college loan forgiveness, I don't think we should and I could be wrong but I don't know if I'm wrong because you won't answer the questions I'm asking and present nothing but logical fallacies. You are not even letting me consider your point of view because you won't answer or explain anything more than logically unsound arguments. You are the only person that is saying we should do it besides senile old dotards with dementia like shillashee that lack the capacity to even understand what they are saying.

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#1054229 - 07/21/21 03:52 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Fallacy: Since Todd attacks Republican corruption, he likes big government and turns a blind eye to Democratic corruption.

Ad hominem: Todd turns a blind eye to corruption and inefficiencies.

Hopefully this helps.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#1054230 - 07/21/21 03:54 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: FishPrince]
FishPrince Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 489
Originally Posted By: Todd
Fallacy: Since Todd attacks Republican corruption, he likes big government and turns a blind eye to Democratic corruption.

Ad hominem: Todd turns a blind eye to corruption and inefficiencies.


This is a strawman argument, another type of fallacy. Nobody is making the claims like the argument you mention. A non strawman version is something like this:

Since Todd supports college loan forgiveness Todd supports big government. AND the other one would be something like: Since the distribution of Todd's posts are overwhelmingly attacking Republicans and rarely or never Democrats or the government itself, Todd turns a blind eye to Democratic corruption or government corruption in general.

Both of these are pretty boring arguments and not the issue at hand, but I'll go ahead and debunk that.

Explained further:

You do want big government because having the government forgive student loans costs $1.9 trillion, paying for college for the currently enrolled students costs another $1.9 trillion, and each year another $500 billion for the new students enroll and that's if we assume that with "free" college no extra students will attend and that the price is not going to go up, which are both unrealistic expectations. So north of $4 trillion dollars in government spending IS by any reasonable definition big government. People who support college loan forgiveness by DEFINITION are supporting big government. Saying someone who supports big government supports big government is not an ad hominin attack. It's just a tautology like A is A. It would be like you saying I support small government and me responding why are you attacking me with an ad hominin.

Secondly look how many posts are you bitching about corrupt republicans vs corrupt democrats instead of just corrupt government. Well north of 80% of political posts of yours are bashing republicans as opposed to democrats or government in general, I was in fact unable to find one but possibly they exist. The distribution is so lopsided by any reasonable definition, you are turning a blind eye. On the other hand that doesn't mean you necessarily support their corruption, it's just that you either don't notice or pretend not to. Commenting on the Parteo distribution of your post is not an ad hominin attack. I would be like you saying I have a lot of long posts and me responding why are you attacking me with ad hominin's.

Aside from this you completely ignored the whole topic of this thread and any argument about college loan forgiveness. It's not about YOU, it's about college loan forgiveness. So if my argument about college loan forgiveness contain fallacies, point them out.

I just wish one day I can open your eyes to the fact that Democrats are just as much of a problem as Republicans, that nobody likes corrupt government and instead of reading Blue Frank all day, we get you making the same arguments against corrupt government instead of corrupt Republicans. I would love to see you hate the corrupt government as much as you hate Republicans because I hate corrupt government as much or more than you hate Republicans.

But all that is neither here nor there. Please answer the reasonable questions I asked about college loan forgiveness and make an post that supports your argument that doesn't contain logically fallacies. So far you haven't done either. So how many people do you think you have convinced to support college loan forgiveness, it's zero. The same zero you are willing to pay, the same zero of college forgiveness you are going to get for people. Zero, zero and zero.

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#1054231 - 07/21/21 03:56 PM Re: College Loan Forgiveness [Re: Todd]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6312
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Todd
Fallacy: Since Todd attacks Republican corruption, he likes big government and turns a blind eye to Democratic corruption.

Ad hominem: Todd turns a blind eye to corruption and inefficiencies.

Hopefully this helps.

Fish on...

Todd


On point response and spewing with intelligence. Something Illahee has yet to express.

Keith
_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


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