#1045467 - 01/10/21 10:52 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: cohobankie]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3031
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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With all there casino money, lobbyist and lawyers and our spineless WDFW and Gov. does it just make sense to just have them manage the whole thing and we get our half? Kind of a joke now. As I understand it we can't get a breakwater in West Seattle because of the tribes and I imagine its only a matter of time before that the rest of the central sound deals with these same things.
Might as well sell the boats and get Kayaks to fish. Then they will have something to complain about. 500 kayaks fishing the point will make them wish they had just STFU and let the few folks who use the launch for the tiny window area 9/10 are open.
With regard to PNP the ball is in the hands of the Corps. The Commission has supported pushing forward on the permit application, the Directors and other staff members have met with tribal reps to no avail, and both the current and prior Director have sent detailed letters to the Corps refuting the Suquamish assertions. What else would you have them do? Now, as to that guy we call a Governor (and his predecessor) could exert significant pressure should he so desire. But in the political world that is expecting far too much from him. Too much money at stake. Oh, by the way, have you noticed not a word from that guy about how the tribal casinos continue to operate while he has shut down non-tribal operations. His silence says a lot. He should have been shaming them and taking whatever steps available to minimize the activities at those high risk locations.
Edited by Larry B (01/10/21 10:53 PM)
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It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#1045591 - 01/11/21 01:16 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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King of the Beach
Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5186
Loc: Carkeek Park
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Larry,
I know in the past the Norm Dicks at times would get involved in issues involving the tribes.
Do you know if Derek Kilmer has been involved to possibly helping break the stalemate regarding the launch?
SF
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Founding Member - 2023 Pink Plague Opposition Party
#coholivesmatter
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#1045609 - 01/11/21 02:21 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: stonefish]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3031
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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Larry,
I know in the past the Norm Dicks at times would get involved in issues involving the tribes.
Do you know if Derek Kilmer has been involved to possibly helping break the stalemate regarding the launch?
SF Oh yes! Boating United sponsored a town hall meeting 8 Aug 2019 on the importance of boating with Rep. Kilmer as the keynote speaker. After his spiel he opened up to comments and a number of people spoke to the PNP issue and the fact that it had been with the Corps 6 years and asked him to intervene to get a decision from them. Lots of head nodding but the resulting action was less than responsive. Rather than just leaning on the Corps he made an effort to orchestrate further dialog between the Suquamish and WDFW rather than become directly involved. At that point the new Director agreed to meet with tribal leaders but when he arrived they refused to discuss; essentially snubbed his overture. Worse, Rep. Kilmer's local staff repeatedly tried to dodge the issue by asserting we were trying to have Kilmer to take a side which was patently wrong. The requests were for Rep. Kilmer to "encourage" the Corps to make a decision. As a result another year was lost in what has become a true bureaucratic debacle. Draw your own conclusions.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#1045612 - 01/11/21 02:25 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7580
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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It just seems so obvious that the decision has been made by the Feds, they just don't have the gonads to say it because it will end up in Court and they could lose there.
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#1045624 - 01/11/21 03:29 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: Carcassman]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1604
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
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It just seems so obvious that the decision has been made by the Feds, they just don't have the gonads to say it because it will end up in Court and they could lose there.
I agree. In my view, their tentative decision is to issue the permit. But they're concerned about whether they are prepared for the resulting litigation (from the Tribe). The previous litigation on culverts in Puget Sound (which went all the way to the Supreme Court) is likely a major concern for their attorneys.
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#1045630 - 01/11/21 03:48 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: Larry B]
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King of the Beach
Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5186
Loc: Carkeek Park
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Larry,
I know in the past the Norm Dicks at times would get involved in issues involving the tribes.
Do you know if Derek Kilmer has been involved to possibly helping break the stalemate regarding the launch?
SF Oh yes! Boating United sponsored a town hall meeting 8 Aug 2019 on the importance of boating with Rep. Kilmer as the keynote speaker. After his spiel he opened up to comments and a number of people spoke to the PNP issue and the fact that it had been with the Corps 6 years and asked him to intervene to get a decision from them. Lots of head nodding but the resulting action was less than responsive. Rather than just leaning on the Corps he made an effort to orchestrate further dialog between the Suquamish and WDFW rather than become directly involved. At that point the new Director agreed to meet with tribal leaders but when he arrived they refused to discuss; essentially snubbed his overture. Worse, Rep. Kilmer's local staff repeatedly tried to dodge the issue by asserting we were trying to have Kilmer to take a side which was patently wrong. The requests were for Rep. Kilmer to "encourage" the Corps to make a decision. As a result another year was lost in what has become a true bureaucratic debacle. Draw your own conclusions. Larry, Thank you for the information. SF
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Go Dawgs!
Founding Member - 2023 Pink Plague Opposition Party
#coholivesmatter
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#1045632 - 01/11/21 03:54 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7580
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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The culvert litigation was about destroying habitat that produced the fish. The State's position included the idea that they could destroy a whole run if progress called for that, with impunity. The launch is about access, not habitat. Whole different set of arguments. While Boldt had stuff about habitat, he also held that neither side obstruct access.
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#1045644 - 01/11/21 04:49 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: cohoangler]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3031
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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It just seems so obvious that the decision has been made by the Feds, they just don't have the gonads to say it because it will end up in Court and they could lose there.
I agree. In my view, their tentative decision is to issue the permit. But they're concerned about whether they are prepared for the resulting litigation (from the Tribe). The previous litigation on culverts in Puget Sound (which went all the way to the Supreme Court) is likely a major concern for their attorneys. If the Corps issues the permit would the Suquamish take formal action to oppose it? So far all they have had to do is submit an objection and some rather over the top testimonials from a couple of tribal fishers. A formal action, especially a court action, would bring all of this stuff out into a more public arena. All sorts of information could come out to include Chinook harvest, crab harvest, casino money and their agreement with the Port of Seattle where they are being paid to facilitate Port project permitting. Again, so far they have been able to play the delay game but that is hopefully going to come to an end this month.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#1045662 - 01/11/21 07:07 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5001
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
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01/11/2021
WDFW will find something to "protect", won't need a boat launch.....won't be able to fish from a boat, spinning reel & 13' or 14 foot rod, fish from shore !!!!! Get lots of practice casting long distance....... could happen...... grrrrrrrr
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#1045753 - 01/12/21 05:53 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: DrifterWA]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4166
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
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Leonard Forsman has a lot of power. I remember him from NKHS and when I worked at Kiana Lodge with his family before the tribe purchased it. I remember when the totem pole was set on fire at NKHS.
His brother Tony owns Suquamish Seafoods. Of course he's going to stand up for the tribe. The tribe has taken the Navy to court over water quality issues. I'm surprised they don't want the ramp. They built a dock in Suquamish and non-tribal can use it.
Kilmer cares about the Navy. So did Dicks but Norm liked to fish.
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I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!
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#1046005 - 01/15/21 04:39 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3031
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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The second full work week of January 2021 has come and gone without a decision being issued. Half way through their own target month.....but who's counting?
Oh, and I recall last seeing Leonard Forsman on TV lamenting the adverse impact of trade wars on tribal (his brother's??) seafood sales to Asian countries.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#1046476 - 01/23/21 02:22 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3031
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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Week three has now ended; one more work week in the Corps' target month for issuing a decision on WDFW's permit application for the PNP ramp. Will they make their own deadline??? Suspense is killing me!
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#1046564 - 01/26/21 04:51 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1276
Loc: North Creek
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Three days to go now - can I start holding my breath in anticipation?
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. . . and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and have dominion over the fish of the sea . . .
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#1046571 - 01/26/21 09:33 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: OceanSun]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3031
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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Three days to go now - can I start holding my breath in anticipation? Are you good for 72 hours? Will I be surprised if it doesn't happen by Friday? No. But I will be very disappointed given that the January 2021 target date was established by the Corps' representative on 14 July 2020 or just over 6 months ago. Keep in mind that this permit application has been with the Corps for over 7 years now. Again, if it doesn't happen this month it will be a sad commentary. If you haven't seen it here is the PNP website: https://pointnopointramp.com/.Larry B.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#1046584 - 01/27/21 10:52 AM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 192
Loc: United States
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Unless the tribes give their okie dokie, I wouldn't get your hopes up for a permit.
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#1046629 - 01/27/21 07:41 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: darth baiter]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3031
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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Unless the tribes give their okie dokie, I wouldn't get your hopes up for a permit. Should the Corps deny the permit they will have to explain their decision which will have to include a further definition of de minimus which is the threshold for denying a permit.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#1046632 - 01/27/21 08:10 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1526
Loc: Tacoma
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Under their own explanation, I think the tribe could sue at anytime in the future if they experience any hardship or reduced harvest. A preemptive attempt to keep it from being built is simply based off assumptions, all of which can be dealt with after the fact. The actual ramp can only be beneficial to them as they clearly intend to use it. If problems arise, the tribe could then petition for damages and changes to the use. The whole attempt to stop the ramp is simply a power grab and attempt to obtain benefits in advance.
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#1046635 - 01/28/21 07:19 AM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7580
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Entities, especially government ones, have shown a great willingness to pay the Tribes to allow projects.
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#1046638 - 01/28/21 09:11 AM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: Carcassman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3031
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
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Entities, especially government ones, have shown a great willingness to pay the Tribes to allow projects. Hopefully this will help put that evil Genie back in the bottle.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!
It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)
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#1046777 - 01/30/21 04:31 PM
Re: Point No Point. Who cares?
[Re: ned]
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Ornamental Rice Bowl
Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12616
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B-E-E-P !
And another deadline goes by... anyone surprised?
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