Just got done with the steelhead town hall. 152 disappointed attendees. Looks like we can expect the same fisheries we had last year (Quileute System and Hoh), with maybe a couple small opportunities near hatcheries (maybe).

Lots of calls for terminal opportunity near hatcheries, a couple calls for fishing from boats. Not too much anger expressed....

One slide they showed us showed the distribution and timing of wild and hatchery runs across the Chehalis basin. I noticed the only wild runs timed so they are present in numbers before January were upper basin fish (Newaukum, West Fork, South Fork, upper main stem). I suggested we might be able to open only the lower tribs in December (maybe half of Jan.) and avoid virtually all wild impacts while taking advantage of the hatchery fish. That was sort of well received, but only sort of; I don't think we have a single paper fish to work with within 10% impact.

The last call was the most telling, not to mention what James said on a few other calls. “We assume”. We can’t be managing from we assume? Can we? Or when you bring up another study that is more recent, better funded and has involvement from multiple agencies and universities…it’s all but written off and they just assume they have the the end all be all of studies and research because they are THE STATE.

Yeah…lots could be done about fishing in hatchery/terminal areas. The writing is pretty clearly on the wall I think….no steelhead season anywhere on the chehalis basin. Little easier to stomach when gas was $3.50/gallon…not $5.50…

I hope the frustration came through for most of the callers. I know it did on mine. I held back most of what I really thought about their crappy management…but I got the point across that their leadership is horrible and that the majority of anglers do not trust them.

One caller was pro WDFW. The crony from conservation angler. He really stroked their…ego…yeah that’s it.

When asked about peer reviewed studies about fishing from a boat, James said “we assume” again. They don’t know. Until they are sure…the decision shouldn’t be made to just cripple a lot of anglers like that. I don’t even own a boat and rarely fish out of one in the winter; but it baffles me that it’s even on the table.

I’m going to keep calling in and I’m not going to let them just thinking that sportsman don’t care. This is the first call I’ve been on that the majority of the callers were angry, to at least very upset with the decision making. I bet next time the WFC and their gang circle the wagons and call in to suc…err…stand with WDFW and their horrible decisions to take anglers off the water with no actual examples of success anywhere.

I was on the call as well. Was expecting a bleaker outlook than last year, but I actually feel better than expected. Still not great overall, but I was honestly half expecting a full closure. The comments on December/Early January seasons on the lower Chehalis tribs seemed somewhat well received to me as well, just judging Mr. Losee’s reaction to that comment.

I’d personally be very happy to fish those Chehalis tribs with similar rules to when it was last open (No fishing from a boat, no bait, pinched barbs), if it meant an opportunity to fish closer to home.

Numbers on the hump looked pretty bleak so I can’t imagine an opportunity there.

Fingers crossed for the next meeting to start providing some idea of what our opportunities will be this winter.

After in and out listening. Thanks for those that participated. Understandably depressing where we are at. Correct me if I am wrong? For some reason. Seems to me, all the sudden... the last few years, I find it surprising the emphasis on early wild component returning winter runs, Dec & Jan time frame region wide? Especially in Boldt case areas where the tribes influence management. Those early wild runs were wiped out by tribal gillnets and written off by WDG/WDFW over the last 30+ yrs when the nets went in targeting the earliest returning fish. Hatcheries pumped up the early Chambers stock and local brood stock at the same time to support those tribal and recreational fisheries. I would argue that those early wild fish and there genetics in certain systems are all but gone except those originating from brood stock. Those populations have been depressed for all these years and now have become the major obstacle to having any kind of river recreational fisheries? WTF? Wondering how much the WFC and WSC lawsuit game is to blame? Do the tribes really want us off the river banks that bad? I take a deep breath and wonder if I will ever get to river fish my 55 yrs. of normal and accustomed waters for winter steelhead again.

If WDFW allows a steelhead season of ,for example Dec-mid Jan, on the Chehalis tribs, there won't be hardly any fish around ,hatchery or wild. February -March have always been for me the best months for hatchery steelhead on the Nooch and Satsop. Also the Skookumchuck. Pretty much a waste of time to even wet a line in those streams in Dec-Jan for steelhead. The only opportunity would be for late coho if it is open for them.

Shoot, I’d still love the opportunity to be on the water in December numbers be damned. Enough fish for me to feel good about my chances, not to mention those late hook noses. All in all, I’m feeling like the staff is more open to suggestions this year than last. Green is correct that nearly all speakers were at a minimum supportive of increased opportunities, and I’d say that most were even slightly critical of the department, albeit respectful and professional in tone.

There are few Dec / Jan Steelhead as they do not plant them anymore and the early wild stock was never a large part of the run unless you go back 50 years or so. The weakest part of the wild Coho run in Chehalis is the Late Coho in particular the Jan portion. Also unlike Coho that has the tidewater tribs struggling with escapement it is in the upper basin the Steelhead are struggling .

Interesting you mention late coho, which I think are the real reason we don't get to fish early steelhead anymore. The QIN's "winter steelhead fishery" on the Chehalis encounters late coho (perhaps not entirely incidentally). We know our late coho runs have been in the tank of late, so there haven't been any fisheries on them in recent years. We all know the whole "we can't fish, you can't fish" paradigm, and if the nets can't fish, we can't fish either... for anything. Rivers closed. That's my jaded, conspiratorial take....

Now for the down to Earth, conservationist take, which is that, frustrated with WDFW though we may be, most wild steelhead runs on the coast are in bad shape and showing little promise for recovery. That's particularly true of the early-timed fish in the upper Chehalis basin, which are the ones we'd be most likely to encounter in a normal, early steelhead fishery. That's why I suggested the possibility of opening the lower tribs (where upper basin fish don't go) while leaving the mainstem closed; it's the only way I could think of to get anyone on the water in December and January. After saying it out loud last night, I realized there are two user groups who would not be likely to agree with that proposal: the recs who would like to fish the mainstem for late coho (if there's room for a fishery this year), and the QIN gillnetters. With those two opponents, my little pipe dream is probably dead on arrival, so don't worry, Lifter; you won't have to endure any slow fishing on the lower tribs this Dec.-Jan., for steelhead or anything else. Considering that the late-timed fish are all Wynoochee and Satsop fish (that missed escapement again last year, with nobody fishing), you likely need not worry about ever fishing those rivers again during prime time.

Another thought I had post-meeting last night is that it's "odd" how WDFW seems to have assumed, based strictly on the fact there was no fishing, that all the fish we didn't catch lived to spawn. In other words, ZERO natural mortality. Unless they actually counted spawners and they miraculously matched forecasts, these data points were extrapolated, and they could have a significant margin of error.

Meanwhile, they had more precise numbers from the rivers that were open, and in every case except the Bogey, escapement exceeded preseason forecasts, despite what must have been heavy fishing pressure. I pointed out last night how that seems to indicate release mortality is grossly overestimated at the 10% figure they still use, despite having more recent and better studies that show it's below 5%. Losee took the opportunity to toot WDFW's horn, saying those numbers were probably more reflective of the rule changes (no fishing from boats, etc.) they put in place last year. Either way, it comes down to more proof sport fishing is not among the most significant factors in species decline.

Anyway, I think it's reasonable to suspect that escapement was better than forecast in most systems last year, and until we learn more about the methods WDFW used to calculate escapement (assuming it wasn't a direct copy and paste from the forecast column), I will be suspicious of their escapement data from the closed systems. We know they don't monitor closed fisheries, and that COULD make data collection challenging, if not impossible....

I think, overall, they are trying to do right by the fish. My only concern is that, with most runs missing escapement again, they're defaulting a little too quickly to the full closure button. I'm certain there's room for creativity, if I'm not entirely sure where yet.

Why is the town hall only focused on the coast? Is there not thousands of rivers and streams that have been closed a long time? I would like to know if said unnamed streams have had a resurgence of fish since being closed and if not why?

I wish there were meetings for that very subject.

I imagine most of us know how’s it’s worked out for rivers in the Puget Sound and Hood Canal. Too many other factors still keeping these populations down. Humans are the problem.

They do escapement estimates based on spawner surveys. They walk index areas on a schedule counting fish and redds. They extrapolate that to the anadromous zone based on spawner surveys on known numbers of fish in Snow and Salmon creeks. The methodology has been used for decades and is (was anyway) available in technical reports that WDG did. Because the methodology was used in the Boldt Case area I am sure that it was thoroughly reviewed by the Tribes and maybe some outside folks too.

Thanks! I kind of understood that, but the finer details are interesting to learn.

As for Wild Winter Steelhead I remember reading some field estimates on the Nisqually, Puyallup and Green the last 5yrs? Time travels fast. I wasn't able to find them again on a quick search, but remember the numbers are still down as are all of Puget Sound systems. Arguments have been made on what numbers give a green light for any fisheries? Keep in mind it's been roughly 20 yrs. since these were closed and they still have outgoing survival/return issues. I do know the Green had a March/April brood stock catch happening and it was productive. Not sure any more. I have a buddy that works at Centralia City Light and knows the Nisqually numbers at their diversion dam. They have showed some promise but then drop off see sawing yearly. I also know a guy that lives on the upper Puyallup. He sneak fishes C&R in spring and does pretty good. Also talked to a tribal bio, and the Puyallup's March fish have been doing better also, est. 1000-2000 a year returning. The newly renovated Clark's Creek Hatchery in Puyallup is going to start raising Winter Steelhead again, so maybe? Currently the Mucks and Puyallup tribes have a brood stock program on the White, around 30K smolt per year. They trap at Mud Mt./Tapps diversion and are getting 300 a year. Not that any of these rivers will be ever open again even for C&R but it does sound that they are showing some promise.I hope to cast again on any of these rivers before I die. Cross your fingers but don't hold your breath. Here are some links w/ some old Puyallup info.
http://puyallup-tribe.com/fisheries/hatchery.html
https://nwifc.org/tribes-saving-puyallup-river-steelhead/

10/22/2022

Missed the virtual meeting, my bad. Sounds like at least 152 "tuned in". How many actual spoke????

Winter Steelheading should be shut down for at least 10 years, probably more. No way the wild/native fish have a chance to ever get back to levels in the 50's - 70's, without something of a written long range plan, and then followed.

You can't keep putting winter run smolts in rivers with Wild fish and expect to have sport fishing, catch release and tribal netting, take all catch to "wherever".

Why not have a plan "B" ?????? Stop putting winter steelhead smolt, that are timed to return about same time as the Native/Wild steelhead......It hasn't been working in Region 6 since before the Bolt Decision.

Plan B..... switch to summer steelhead in rivers that can handle the change over, cut way back on rivers that WDFW thinks can't adapt to a change over.

WDFW current plan, year by year, is terrible.....yea, makes you think there is a chance to get Wild steelhead number to rebound but IMO, no way for a minimum of, I'm guessing, 5-6 full cycles.

Summer steelheading, much better weather, for sure better eating, would keep many boats off the rivers, longer day light hours to try and catch a "put and take fishery" steelhead.

Plan A IS NOT WORKING, time to move on, try Plan B .... Change might be difficult but Plan A is, if you really think about is a real killer of wild steelhead....and that is a BIG grrrrrrrrr

Remember that with steelhead they are just part of the O. mykiss complex. When I was growing up they were considered separate subspecies in that steelhead were a separate genetic group that went to sea.

Recent work shows that to be wrong. A steelhead is a rainbow that goes to sea and a resident is a steelhead that stays home. Apparently, the juveniles respond to cues in freshwater such as flows, temperature, productivity (available food) to decide which switch to flip.

Further, there are indications that on streams with dams, where minimum spawning flows are set for the fall that the increased cool water flows help the salmon spawn and the mykiss decide to be resident.

Further, lots of bad stuff seems to be occurring in PS and the ocean. For decades, rearing and older smolts that left from out of the Narrows had sucky survival. Marine survivals overall seem way dawn.

As every teenaged male knows, the primary purpose in life is to reproduce. Same with fish. If going to the ocean is a poor decision (survival-wise) those that stay will be more successful.

There are a lot of things holding down the number of steelhead; some we can fix (like delivery of MDNs and flow regimes) and some are much harder (AK hatcheries and climate change).

I'm starting to warm up to Plan B. We would essentially be giving up winter fisheries for a long time (maybe for good), but if it buys us better fishing in the summer, I could be convinced to compromise.

Copy and paste. Coast rivers are now same as puget sound rivers. Maybe 1 or two still hanging in there.
Shutting down hatcheries is next cause of WFC or tribes , tree huggers, etc. etc.
Wait until you get to January 1st and they play the “is it 4% or 3% or oh no it’s under escapement again, got keep it closed. Repeat next year.
Or then they could play the stilly scenario with “Encounters “ with magical chinook that don’t exist.
All coming to to a stream near you. Feel so lucky we get to be the testing ground for all the excuses here on NS rivers.

It’s amazing actually. That so few realized and/or admitted this was coming, and just now see how the end game Really looks.

It’s been 20 to 30 years in the making, and the Wa. State’s great sport fishing cakes just about done...

Sad Really

Just got to ask, why is WDFW spending our money to raise hatchery steelhead that we can't fish for?

Maybe stop a lot of hatchery programs that no longer deliver harvestable fish to recreational angling and reduce the cost of fishing licenses to reflect the reduced fishing opportunity. Where else can we have our money invested and get nothing in return?