12/26/2023

ok, dance around lots of numbers......many active on this web site retired WDG and WDF and also combination of the 2 agencies.

All this educated talent, talk the talk....still the Wild steelhead numbers have been declining "big time" since the Bolt decision.

Some one needs to get the Punch card sales and the punch card returns. If everyone was 100% honest and 100% of the cards were returned, that would be the most accurate measure at showing declining steelhead returning numbers.....I think that should be available and posted on the WDFW web site......last time I ask, it was under 50%.

Spawning surveys, ugh...... If the spawning surveys were accurate, how did we get caught with our "pants down" and have to go with complete closures, to protect the few remaining pockets of wild steelhead?????

Interesting you bring that up SF. When the departments merged they changed Puyallup hatchery operations, by moving steelhead production from the Puy trout hatchery and some other locations to Voights. Never was the same after that. Upper Puy hatchery release locations such as, hwy 162 bridges, McMillin, 116th, BMX, Antones, all stopped, returns fell along with catches. Supposedly 250-350k plants, if legit, produced squat out of Voights, compared to 100-200k distributed around to above locations. Another declining cause, was the elimination of the Carbon/ Puy broodstock program in the early 80's. It was just seeing returns getting going when lethal spawning wilds became an issue and shut it down. Bottom line is to many predators in Puget Sound feasting on Salmonids, the ongoing migration research shows it. No gonads to manage the seals and cormorants. Today I think there are good enough wild Puy numbers for a C&R fishery in Feb. and March, just no way to prove it, and the tribe will never buy into it anyway. Sucks balz!!!

When I was the U.S. Advisor for Enforcement for the North Pacific Anadramous Fisheries Commission in the early 2000's (the high seas drift net bunch) I was amazed to find out that basically no research was done into steelhead catches, or interception. It was all about the salmon. From what little I learned, it looked to me that there was a good likely hood that they were intercepted to a degree in the far western Pacific by high seas drift net illegal fisheries after squid. I was able to make some in roads to make steelhead more of a priority but things changed politically, and new powers to be quit looking at steelhead. Gary Smith of Slade Gorton's Office supported steelhead research, but after Gorton left office, steelhead support disappeared. I don't think anybody really knows where most of the steelhead travel, but there are lots of theories.

Tug, glad you brought up the high seas gillnet fisheries. After I graduated from the UW in 1978, the first little job I had was as a fisheries observer on a Japanese salmon mother ship in the North Pacific. Four motherships were fishing and each mother ship had forty three 90 ft gillnet boats returning each day to unload their catch onto the monthership. Each gillnet boat fished about nine miles of gillnet. Monofilament gillnet with about 4 1/2 " stretch mesh. I did this each summer from about 1979-1985. I was able to sample and get the total weight of all the species of salmon off half of gillnet boats. I was employed by the UW but a fellow named Mike Dahlberg who worked for NMFS in Juneau (Auke Bay) was my supervisor. He was the one who met with the Japanese each year in the off season to discuss and agree on the sampling we did.
One reason I am bringing this up is because we are discussing steelhead. The first year I did this job Dr. Dahlberg said that the Japanese clamed they didn't catch any steelhead in their gillnets.The Japanese finally admitted they and was able to take mesurement s off 50 steelhead each summer. The areas where these fish were caught extended the range of North American steelhead at that time.

The total tonnage of salmon that was brought aboard each mother ship exceeded 100 metric tons on some days. The reason for the small mesh size (4 1/2" )was that the Japanese were targeting sockeye going to Bristol Bay. The area they fished was in the North Pacific kind of off the end of the Aleutian chain. The gillnets fished about 25 ft deep and was about 15-20 lb mono that was a green color that was invisible in the water and caught fish in daylight. Each year I was able to spend about a week on one of the gillnetters and observe the fishing operation. Each 90 ft gillnet boat had 18 crew. The mothership were around 500 ft long and had a total crew of over 200 crew. Each mother ship had one salmon observer and one marine mammal observer. The gillnets killed some Dall's porpoise which the marine mammal observer took samples from. This fishery was legal fishery that I think ended around 1986. There was some illegal fishing afterward especially by other nations. Tug might know more about this. Steelhead had not been studied much at that time and so the range and origin of steelhead was extended because of the samples (whole fish)collected in that fishery.

I remember the rumors of the high seas drift net intercepts. Was always curious, but facts were/are hard to find. Those boats are secretive and don't give a damn what there catching or where they came from. I'm surprised they let any observers on board, period. Was the total fish you observed only 50? Or, is that what you could only get access to? It would be difficult to see steelhead in a huge dump of salmon, them all being chrome bright, unless given the opportunity to sort. Understandedly, one would not want to rock the boat as a guest observer on board.

Pretty amazing how quickly it dropped off. If I recall, 84 or 85 was a banner year on the Puyallup.
When WDFW updated their website, a lot of the old data regarding plants and harvest numbers disappeared off their site. Luckily you can still find them using the WayBack Machine.
I was looking at some old numbers today. In 2002 the harvest numbers for winters was 64 for the Puyallup. In 2008, the plant numbers were 162K, the Green got 257K and the Snohomish system got 439K.
SF

RnG, the agreement before the season was that I could sample and collect 50 steelhead each year. It was a very interesting situation. The US set the time of the season (June-July) but the Russians set the quotas for salmon caught. The reason the US set the months and area fished was because US scientists had determined that mostof the US salmon had migrated out of that area by the start of the season. The reason the Russians set the quotas was because it was determined that the Japanese were catching mostly Russian salmon in the fishing area during that time. I was able to meet the Russian fish inspectors when I was out there because they would come aboard the mothership often to check the logbooks. I never knew when the season would end because the Japanese and Russian would determine that. I never knew what the quota numbers were since the US didn't set the quotas. The Japanese would tell me when the season would end and they would take me into port to go home. It was a long time ago but I do remember that quite a few of the steelhead that were collected were from BC streams. I think Robertson Creek was one of the. Interesting times and real education for me.

The fact is, there are so many factors, it may not be possible to pick one out. I was just taking a look at the oregon pink fishery by-catch numbers. They have a 5% by catch rate, which they point out is low. But, consider that this is out of 30 million pounds, meaning around 1.5 million pounds. They filter out a lot of the larger fish, so this leaves mostly small fish. So what are they taking. Are they mostly smelt. What if only a 1/10 a percent are steelhead smolt. That would be 1500 pounds. At 2 per pound, 3000 disappear. Repeat this over and over, and we have death by a thousand cuts.

Lifter99 and Tug 3 I was not involved in any of the research about those times but I was a close observer and received a real education about the ocean ecology of salmon. My fishing partner of the past 56 years has been involved with high seas salmon research since 1980. It is likely that you have met her as she worked at UW, went on many Japanese research cruises, and participated in the NPAFC meetings.

I mention the above because she wrote chapter 7 "Ocean Ecology of Steelhead" in the AFS book, " The Ocean Ecology of Pacific Salmon and Trout". The book is expensive to buy From AFS so most of us can't afford it. Much to my surprise I found chapter 7 can be down loaded from the WDFW web site (linked below). The chapter is 126 pages long. It has information related to fresh water as well as the ocean. After all what makes a steelhead different from other rainbow trout is that is goes to the ocean. Anyone interested in steelhead and their management should look at the chapter. Stellhead runs didn't start to decrease just after the Boldt decision. The decline started in the late 1880's and has continued for a variety of reasons.

Ocean Ecology of Steelhead

WN1A, Thank you. Yes, Kate Myers was the one who hired me to do the work when she worked at FRI at the UW. I knew her very well but haven't seen her in a long time. Wonderful and intelligent lady. I also did some work for her when she hired me to work with the Russians tagging salmon on the high seas. It was a long time ago but she would probably still remember me. We always had some interesting discussions.

Was #2 in the state that season, with a winter sport catch of 10,305. the Cowlitz was #1's with 16,102. Don't forget the projection factor, sometimes over 2.00. I was a numbers nut back then. That season the stars alligned state wide, and was good everywhere.(Exceptional smolt survival)!
Not sure what you mean by Wayback Machine for smolt plant info? I do have the sport harvest stats, that WDG printed out starting in 1983, and some old ones from back in the 40's-70's but don't have the smolt plant info to match until 1988 on. Then,the Puy plants were pretty consistant 100-150k. If the numbers are correct survival was the key to good returns, which we haven't had in along time. IMO increased predation I think is the major culprit! I watch the cormorants work the lower PUY every spring feasting on outward smolt. There numbers along with pinnipeds were not around in the 80's previous. We should be doing more to stop that! Although a social and political hot potatoe, could be overnight results!

The WayBack Machine is a web archive site that is a good source to help find information that is no longer currently on the web.
SF

John,

I remember meeting Kate and you either in Japan or Korea. Those were interesting times in the NPAFC and I learned a lot about international politics, and how it is almost impossible to get good conservation plans with conflicting cultures.

I'm suffering the loss of steelhead and steelhead fishing on the Peninsula to a degree that's hard to explain. It's been my pleasure and passion for more than fifty years and now that I'm in the homestretch of my life I'm forbidden from the activity. I'll probably go to the Queets on a sunny day in April just to float the river. I'm sure you share my feelings.

Jim,
I suggest you head north to Alaska and go while you can.
Time waits for no man.

Truth. I recently had a dream of seeing a bunch of guys, in a bunch of drift boats, floating a river, with no rods or gear on board. That's all I remember. Not the kind of dreams I should be having.

I guided the wilderness streams of Admiralty and Baranoff islands for eight summers after I retired from my fishcop career. I saw natural spawning like it used to be here. Caught so many fish, dodged bears regularly, and on my days off, went fishing. It was hard work but also a dream come true. Ironic that I couldn't afford to go on a first class trip to SE Alaska, and then they paid me to go. Life is sometimes strange but good. Whalers Cove Lodge was my employer. Alaskas creek fishing is probably as good as ever, but saltwater isn't what it used to be due to stupid regulations.

Ah yes.
The good ole days when the Christmas party was at the Black Lake house and JJ was a snot nosed kid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Christmas party at the Black Lake house was the best! Good times.

Nice to see this place so active, only wish it was a funnier topic.