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#1064517 - 10/31/24 02:45 PM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
28 Gage Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/15/21
Posts: 357
It’s good to take notes.
_________________________
Making Puget Sound Great Again - 2025 Year of the Pinks!
South Sound’s Humpy Promotional Director.


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#1064518 - 10/31/24 02:54 PM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
I'm Still RichG Offline
Fallen Off The Deep End

Registered: 08/16/21
Posts: 241
My one post every six months…

https://komonews.com/station/question-of...ovember-5-vote#

Hope you got some Silver…

Hope you did not take the injections…

Get ready for a rough ride…
_________________________
"The Koolaid has poison in it"

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#1064520 - 10/31/24 04:09 PM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1533
Loc: Tacoma
I believe Biden is directly responsible for the Ukraine invasion. If it was in the planning for 8 years, why did they do it when they did. It was a combination of believing (correctly) that Biden is weak and the fact that the slow down of drilling in the US reduced the world oil supply and made Europe dependent on Russian Oil. With Europe not able due to the need for oil, Putin believed he could walk right in. Fortunately his military was a whole lot weaker than he thought, along with a stronger resolve in Ukraine.

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#1064521 - 10/31/24 04:58 PM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7628
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
What was Biden supposed to do? He has provided significant money and material, obtained a significant amount of help from European allies, etc.

What was he supposed do to be "strong"? Nuke Russia? Invade Russia?

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#1064523 - 10/31/24 06:51 PM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13485
Krijack, If Putin believed Biden is weak, he must be surprised that the US and NATO countries responded with so much military aid. He may have been even more surprised that the Russian army was so incompetent. As for US drilling, you should be aware that the US has been producing more oil than ever during Biden's administration, although that is due more to market than Biden directly. The oil industry cares more about money than it does about politics.

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#1064524 - 10/31/24 07:47 PM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7628
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I would add that it is my understanding that much of tar sands oil and fracked oil that is what those pipelines were supposed to carry was for export. The US uses, I understand it, a "lighter" crude that is imported in large amount. So, if we put in this midwestern pipes it would be to sell, not to provide gas for our vehicles.

It is kind of like hatchery vs. wild fish; they are different. But, selling that crude would give the petrochemical companies more money.

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#1064525 - 10/31/24 09:27 PM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1533
Loc: Tacoma
During his campaign, Biden promised to end fracking and oil drilling. Between December of 2019 and the major invasion in February 2022 oil exports were mainly falling, with drops of up to 25%. This was the first drop since around 2015, with exports ramping upward from 2013. After the invasion, imports started to increase almost immediately. With the drops and the promises of less exports, Putin thought he could hold Europe at hostage. He was wrong.

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#1064526 - 10/31/24 09:52 PM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: Krijack]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 292
Loc: Tumwater
Doesn't anyone rmember that a short while ag the U. s. importted oil from Russia? I wrote both our senators and asked 'WTF? Cantwell replied, not Murray. Energy independence is needed in these globally dangerous times. WE know our values, but when you throw in Iran, North Korea into the mixing bowl with everyone else, I worry about where we are headed. Are we about to enter the Third World War? Time to consider that with all the whacko countries out there.

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#1064527 - 11/01/24 06:33 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7628
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Energy independence woks fine IF you have the specific types of raw materials you need for your use. If the US needs more light crude, for example, than we can produce we must import it from somewhere. IF we were burning a lot of coal and needed anthracite it really doesn't matter of the Powder River Basin is full of bituminous; we need the other.

I very much agree with Tug that we need to re-home industries and energy. But we don't have all the raw materials we need. We can't grow all the food we need, when we want it. Just where, in the US, are you gonna grow all those fruits and veggies we eat through the winter?

We, for better or for worse, depend on the rest of the world to supply items we can't for won't do ourselves. And, as we know from labor costs, manufacturing here will increase costs which means wages have to up. Kind of a vicious circle.

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#1064529 - 11/01/24 07:49 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 424
Everyone should read Project 2025. The GOP agenda. Trump lies as usual and claims he knows nothing about it. Right. Vance wrote the forward to it. After reading it, why anyone in there right mind would vote for Trump is beyond me. Unless maybe you are a billionaire. I remember when the old conservative Republican Party was a very respected and good party. Lots of good people. Now most of the Republicans have sold out to Trump. Terrible.

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#1064530 - 11/01/24 07:52 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 424
Remember when the conservative Republican Party used to be known at the Party of Law and Order. My how things have changed with the "Trump" Republican party.

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#1064531 - 11/01/24 08:15 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: Salmo g.]
SpoonFed Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/29/19
Posts: 1553
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Krijack, If Putin believed Biden is weak, he must be surprised that the US and NATO countries responded with so much military aid. He may have been even more surprised that the Russian army was so incompetent. As for US drilling, you should be aware that the US has been producing more oil than ever during Biden's administration, although that is due more to market than Biden directly. The oil industry cares more about money than it does about politics.
lol.wut. That's why inflation is up 30%, fuel is still high, what happened to our strategic petroleum reserve if we've been pumping the oil. Brought to you by the biden/Harris admin, day one.

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#1064532 - 11/01/24 08:17 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: Lifter99]
FishPrince Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 504
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Everyone should read Project 2025. The GOP agenda. Trump lies as usual and claims he knows nothing about it. Right. Vance wrote the forward to it. After reading it, why anyone in there right mind would vote for Trump is beyond me. Unless maybe you are a billionaire. I remember when the old conservative Republican Party was a very respected and good party. Lots of good people. Now most of the Republicans have sold out to Trump. Terrible.


OK well this is just flat out wrong. You can't just say someone wrote a forward to something when they didn't, we can go check the actual document and see you are wrong.

Here is the Project 2025 document:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/...rvative-promise

The forward was written by Kevin D. Roberts, PhD and JD Vance is not listed anywhere in the document. Nor is Trump listed anywhere in the document. Nor is anyone in Trump's campaign listed anywhere in the document.

Trump has stated multiple times that he has not even read the document much less endorses it. Trump's campaign, unlike Kamala Harris, has put of a detailed list of policies and changes he is instituting, which differ radically from project 2025. So I'm going to rely on the policies the campaign put out and not some document that was never even read by them.

So do you want to admit you didn't read Project 2025 and were wrong about JD Vance writing the forward? So perhaps the other information you got from this source (which isn't the primary source of the project 2025 document), might also be false as well?

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#1064533 - 11/01/24 08:46 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: Salmo g.]
FishPrince Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 504
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
All your rights as an American citizen will be subject to Trump's mentally unstable whims of the moment. If you yearn to know what it's like to live under Russia's Putin, then vote for Trump.


Trump was president for 4 years, remember that? Why didn't he go all Putin then?

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Trump doesn't know sh!t from apple butter about economics. His personal bankruptcies prove it. He doesn't believe his proposed tariffs will be passed on to American consumers. But every economist in the country who doesn't work for Trump, including numerous Nobel Prize winning economists say that's how tariffs work, and that they will add approximately $3600 in costs to the average American household for imported goods, you know, like all those lower income Americans who shop at Wal Mart.


You know that you don't have to buy imported goods, right? Also you know that he is talking about replacing the income tax with the tarriffs, so look at how much you pay in income tax each year, oh damn it's more than the $3600 I'd pay in tariffs if I didn't change my consumption pattern in buying less imported goods. Oh no!

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Trump, i.e., Cadet Bonespurs, calls American servicemen and women "suckers and losers," and insulted former POW John McCain. Pentagon Generals and Admirals called Trump a "fvcking moron" even before they called him a Facist.


The suckers and losers comment was debunked, there were 19 people in the room that didn't hear him say that but one guy who was fired for being incompetent said he heard that. As for disloyal democratic generals calling trump names, ok sure.

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
As a non-billionaire I can't afford more Trump tax cuts that benefit the rich and increase taxes on the middle class.


Every single person who paid taxes from middle class to the rich payed less in tax under Trump. This is wrong, tax rates on middle class went DOWN under Trump, not up.

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Trump incited a riot and attack on the U.S. Capitol to try and prevent the certification of an election that he knows he lost. That was an act of treason that he has yet to account for.


This is straight BS, there has been hearings on this for years and Trump is still a free man. Inciting a riot is a crime, you just accused him of being guilty of a crime, so prove it. Accusing someone of a crime is defacto defamation so you better have evidence of what you are saying is true.

He told his supporters to peacefully protest. Then his last tweet on January 6th said: “These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!” This isn't treason, he didn't tell anyone to attack the capital, the only person who died was an unarmed woman Ashley Babbit who was shot by a cowardly police officer. Trump told people to "peacefully protest" then "Go home with love & in peace." This riot was also full of FBI agents and informants, many of the doors were opened by the capital police and just let people in. It was an embarassing riot but less of a riot then had been going on for years over George Floyd.


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#1064534 - 11/01/24 08:56 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: FishPrince]
SpoonFed Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/29/19
Posts: 1553
Originally Posted By: Flatbrim Pescador
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
All your rights as an American citizen will be subject to Trump's mentally unstable whims of the moment. If you yearn to know what it's like to live under Russia's Putin, then vote for Trump.


Trump was president for 4 years, remember that? Why didn't he go all Putin then?

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Trump doesn't know sh!t from apple butter about economics. His personal bankruptcies prove it. He doesn't believe his proposed tariffs will be passed on to American consumers. But every economist in the country who doesn't work for Trump, including numerous Nobel Prize winning economists say that's how tariffs work, and that they will add approximately $3600 in costs to the average American household for imported goods, you know, like all those lower income Americans who shop at Wal Mart.


You know that you don't have to buy imported goods, right? Also you know that he is talking about replacing the income tax with the tarriffs, so look at how much you pay in income tax each year, oh damn it's more than the $3600 I'd pay in tariffs if I didn't change my consumption pattern in buying less imported goods. Oh no!

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Trump, i.e., Cadet Bonespurs, calls American servicemen and women "suckers and losers," and insulted former POW John McCain. Pentagon Generals and Admirals called Trump a "fvcking moron" even before they called him a Facist.


The suckers and losers comment was debunked, there were 19 people in the room that didn't hear him say that but one guy who was fired for being incompetent said he heard that. As for disloyal democratic generals calling trump names, ok sure.

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
As a non-billionaire I can't afford more Trump tax cuts that benefit the rich and increase taxes on the middle class.


Every single person who paid taxes from middle class to the rich payed less in tax under Trump. This is wrong, tax rates on middle class went DOWN under Trump, not up.

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Trump incited a riot and attack on the U.S. Capitol to try and prevent the certification of an election that he knows he lost. That was an act of treason that he has yet to account for.


This is straight BS, there has been hearings on this for years and Trump is still a free man. Inciting a riot is a crime, you just accused him of being guilty of a crime, so prove it. Accusing someone of a crime is defacto defamation so you better have evidence of what you are saying is true.

He told his supporters to peacefully protest. Then his last tweet on January 6th said: “These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!” This isn't treason, he didn't tell anyone to attack the capital, the only person who died was an unarmed woman Ashley Babbit who was shot by a cowardly police officer. Trump told people to "peacefully protest" then "Go home with love & in peace." This riot was also full of FBI agents and informants, many of the doors were opened by the capital police and just let people in. It was an embarassing riot but less of a riot then had been going on for years over George Floyd.

Nailed it flatbrimmer. Salmo, stopping the border wall build, kaboshing trumps remain in mexico policy to give the greenlight to millions and millions of illegals to come here, including the almost 14k illegals that have been convicted or rape or murder in other countries that now call u.s. home, and are taken care of on our dime. Thank you xiden and salmo. Us Americans appreciate that. Lol. Remember when pelosi declined national guard help on j6. Or when chop disappeared when trump was going to send in the guard. Peppridge farm remembers.

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#1064535 - 11/01/24 09:53 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13485
Flatbrim, Trump doesn't read anything. During Trump's first term, aids learned that Trump doesn't read and they had to give him the daily briefing orally. Trump's Plan 47 mirrors many of the articles in Project 2025. Something like 85 of Trump's former staff members are among the authors of Project 2025. Of course Trump didn't write it or read it, but his fingerprints are all over it.

Trump didn't "go all Putin" in his first term for 2 reasons. He had fewer political enemies then, and he appointed staff who were loyal to the Constitution first and not him. He has indicated that Trump loyalty is requirement #1 for all staff going forward, which will be a requirement for all federal agency managers in his next administration, and that is contrary to current law.

You don't have to buy imported goods, been it would be difficult not to since most American manufacturing has been sent offshore. Not easy to find new shoes, pants, shirts, and a thousand other things that are US made.

The suckers and losers comment was only debunked by other Trump liars. The generals calling Trump a moron and a Facist are not disloyal Democrats. They remain loyal to the Constitution, not Trump, and that rubs Trump the wrong way. And most or all of them are lifelong conservatives.

Not everyone paid less tax under Trump, including me.

Trump remains free because his stooge judge in Florida dismissed his case - for now - it will be coming back. And Jack Smith isn't finished prosecuting Trump for Jan. 6. Trump isn't running for president as much as he is running to stay out of jail. Yeah, Trump told his supporters to "peacefully protest" the same way a Mob boss tells his hit man to "take care of" so and so. Trump could have been convicted by now if his SCOTUS minions hadn't decided to give presidential immunity where none exists in the Constitution. So much for being "originalists." Ashley Babbit got exactly what she had coming for breaking into restricted area. Many others are lucky they didn't get the same treatment. The cops who decided to open a door - wrong choice - decided they were overwhelmed by protestors who would force them open anyway. Their were observers among the rioters; that doesn't mean they caused the riot. I don't think it was less of a riot than any George Floyd or Black Lives Matter riots because this was the only riot in US history that was on the US Capitol and intended to prevent the certification of a federal election. Not even close to the level of a BLM protest.

Spoonfed, I will give Trump credit for being more effective than other presidents regarding illegal immigration at the Mexican border. It wasn't pretty, but he did better in terms of numbers. The border is the worst part of the Biden administration's record. As for the 14k illegals that have been convicted, you do realize that is from over the past 40 or so years and not just the last 4, right? I've heard two sides to the Pelosi and Nat'l. Guard assistance. I don't personally know which liar to believe, but since Trump has proven to be the biggest liar ever, I decided to take Pelosi's word over Trump's.

Do you remember when Trump was not a liar and a rapist? I don't. Not the kind of character that belongs in the White House. Doesn't it move you in the slightest that lifelong conservatives, many who know Trump best, have come out saying he is completely unfit for office and have given their support to Harris, whom they oppose on just about every single policy issue?


Edited by Salmo g. (11/01/24 09:55 AM)

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#1064536 - 11/01/24 10:20 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: Salmo g.]
FishPrince Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 504
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
You don't have to buy imported goods, been it would be difficult not to since most American manufacturing has been sent offshore. Not easy to find new shoes, pants, shirts, and a thousand other things that are US made.


Shoes:
https://www.allamericanclothing.com/collections/footwear-made-in-usa
Pants:
https://www.round-house.com/
Shirts:
https://www.jonestshirts.com/collections/usa-made-t-shirts-american-bayside-made-in-america

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Not everyone paid less tax under Trump, including me.


I said middle class and rich because you mentioned middle class, nice try moving the goal post.

Before Trump:
Single Filers:
10%: $0 to $9,275
15%: $9,276 to $37,650
25%: $37,651 to $91,150
28%: $91,151 to $190,150
33%: $190,151 to $413,350
35%: $413,351 to $415,050
39.6%: $415,051 and above

After Trump:
Single Filers:
10%: Taxable income up to $0
12%: Taxable income over $9,525
22%: Taxable income over $38,700
24%: Taxable income over $82,500
32%: Taxable income over $157,500
35%: Taxable income over $200,000
37%: Taxable income over $500,000

So if you were middle class under Trump, you were in the 15% or 25% bracket, which under Trump went down to 12% or 22%, The only bracket that went up was the $200-$400k bracket which went up from 33% to 35%, due to consolidation from 3 bracekets 33-35-39 into 2 brackets of 33-35 but this is hardly a middle class salary. So if what you are saying is true, you either made under $10k or between $200k-$400k but I don't think you made either amount here, I think you likely made more than $10k but less than $200k. For everyone making $10k-$200k their taxes went down, then again for over $500k it went down as well. So for the lower class, middle class and the rich, everyone taxes went down. Except those poor upper middle class making $200k-$400k per person.

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
As for the 14k illegals that have been convicted, you do realize that is from over the past 40 or so years and not just the last 4, right?


Again complete BS, these numbers are for detainees released on the ICE agency's non-detained docket list who are waiting for an immigration court hearing. This is not the last 40 years, just the last 4 or 5 because these are the people who are waiting to have their asylum hearing declined. But once they have their hearing however it is decided, they are either then deported or given residency but they are taken off the docket list either way. OK so here are the numbers right here as requested by Rep Tony Gonzales and given to him by ICE, https://x.com/RepTonyGonzales/status/1839699359010533680.

These are currently released on the docket waiting for their court hearing: including 13,099 convicted murders, 15,811 convicted rapists, another 1,845 with current pending murder charges and 4,250 with current pending rape charges. All caught by ICE then released into the US waiting for 4 to 5 years for a hearing. Currently, there are more than 7 million migrants on ICE’s non-detained docket, with 647,000 of them having criminal convictions or pending charges.

Your 40 year figure is full of sh!t, just like most of your other misinformation. Do you not understand that we can look this information right up online? Quit making things up that are easily fact checked as wrong.

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#1064537 - 11/01/24 10:43 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: RUNnGUN]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 424
Flat,
You have been drinking the Fox News Koolaid for too long. Why do you continue to defend Trump? Convicted felon, rapist, adulterer, fraudster etc. It was a crime for him to even move those classified documents to his home in Florida. He says he will unleash the military on his American political rivals if he is elected. He calls them the "enemy within". How can you support this guy? All his top and closest advisors in his first term have said he is unfit to serve and is a wannabe fascist. General Milley and Gen Kelly are too of the most decorated and respected military brass in US history and you know what they said about Trump. And whether you want to believe it or not Project 2025 in the GOp agenda. Harris had laid out her policies for the middle class. and she has her website. He still doesn't have a health policy. We have been waiting for eight years for that. When he loses the election to Harris I hope you are a good MAGA and go support him in his multiple court cases and claims of election fraud.

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#1064538 - 11/01/24 11:06 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: Lifter99]
FishPrince Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 504
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Convicted felon, rapist, adulterer, fraudster etc. It was a crime for him to even move those classified documents to his home in Florida.


Never convicted of rape. As for adultery, who knows, I mean Kamala Harris had an affair with married Willie Brown and her husband had an affair with the nanny in his previous marriage but adultery isn't really a political issue, it's private. The case about the classified documents was dismissed. The only felony's hes been convicted of is for the 34 counts of paying Stormy Daniels out of NY which is on appeal and is going to go away. These aren't real cases of actual crimes, these are lawfare from the current Biden-Harris administration to destroy the leading opposition candidate.

Originally Posted By: Lifter99
He says he will unleash the military on his American political rivals if he is elected.


He said he will use the military on rioters and to deport criminal illegal aliens, not on political rivals.

Originally Posted By: Lifter99
He calls them the "enemy within".


Oh and what do they call Trump? Even worse than this.

Originally Posted By: Lifter99
And whether you want to believe it or not Project 2025 in the GOp agenda.


I'm sure some GOP members support Project 2025 but not the majority and not Trump. JD Vance didn't write the forward, right?

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#1064539 - 11/01/24 11:18 AM Re: WA I-2117. Cliff Mass Perspective [Re: Lifter99]
SpoonFed Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/29/19
Posts: 1553
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Flat,
You have been drinking the Fox News Koolaid for too long. Why do you continue to defend Trump? Convicted felon, rapist, adulterer, fraudster etc. It was a crime for him to even move those classified documents to his home in Florida. He says he will unleash the military on his American political rivals if he is elected. He calls them the "enemy within". How can you support this guy? All his top and closest advisors in his first term have said he is unfit to serve and is a wannabe fascist. General Milley and Gen Kelly are too of the most decorated and respected military brass in US history and you know what they said about Trump. And whether you want to believe it or not Project 2025 in the GOp agenda. Harris had laid out her policies for the middle class. and she has her website. He still doesn't have a health policy. We have been waiting for eight years for that. When he loses the election to Harris I hope you are a good MAGA and go support him in his multiple court cases and claims of election fraud.
that's not koolaid. Those are facts jack. If trump was all of those things, he would be locked up. Even judge Judy, of everybody, says this political witch hunt and waste of taxpayer money to try and prosecute, is ridiculous. The presidential records act, saved trump regarding the documents. That act didn't apply to Brandon when he took them as senator, and under special council was found to incompetent to stand trial, felt bad for him and Brandon walked. This info ts out there if you look for it. So, Besides orange man bad, how did trump negatively affect you personally between 2016-20? Im talking financially, public safety wise. not the he said something mean and hurt my feelings and just cause. To all of the (independents) rfk fans out there. Im sure there are many here. Salmo seems to think hes a whack job. Lol. Wanting to make america healthy, promoting exercise, fighting to remove all of these additives out of our food, that is banned in other countries is being a whack job.

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