Struggle much?

Fixed.

The merciful thing to do is just smother you with a pillow so you don't suffer anymore.

I rate that one 0/5 pillows boomer.

Won't someone please think of the poor millennial Karen social justice warriors? They spent 2 years rioting and shouting down actual patriotic Americans rather than working and now are behind on their payments! We should just hand them a 6 figure credit at the expense of the hard working patriotic American taxpayers whose historic monuments they just spent last year tearing down.

FHP,

Not so wow. And it requires cherry picking words and phrases for me to sound just like you. Overlaps in opinion occurs among liberals and conservatives all the time, and occasionally with radicals I suppose. I don't recall claiming that you have horrible opinions, although I wouldn't be surprised if you do. I think you're mainly Dark Side entertainment and make an effort to project way more of an assholish persona on the internet than in real life.

Further, it is logical that our opinions might occasionally overlap. I have an interest in science and am competent in math and somewhat competent in statistics. You're a philosophy major, and good philosophy majors are also good at math. I can bear the burden of association with you via common opinion because we both happen to understand how math works.

You claim that we all "should" pay less taxes. That isn't true. There is no particular amount of taxation that falls under the vague umbrella of "should." We should pay taxes in the amount that the collective we, as the body politic, determine is necessary to fund the various government functions that this same body chooses to have the government perform. Given the way our system of government works - which includes all the benefits and repercussions of lobbying Congress - we are likely being taxed at exactly the amount that the collective we has determined necessary.

Would I prefer that it were different? Hell yeah! But I'd have to be made benevolent dictator for that to happen. Slim chance of that. I'd love to eliminate a lot of corporate welfare and socialism for the rich, and I'd structure welfare for the poor to be more of a hand up than a hand out. Government benefits would be loaded with conditions and consequences, so my term as dictator would be very short, probably due to assassination.

I haven't seen a college loan forgiveness proposal that pencils out, but that doesn't mean that one couldn't be crafted. I think public education is beneficial enough to the nation so that it is worth its cost. Public education is one of the main contributors to creating the American middle class. Having a large American middle class is important because - the math! - as you pointed out earlier, taxing just the super rich doesn't raise nearly as much government revenue as taxing 100 million middle class Americans. A large and prosperous middle class better affords out ability to "promote the general welfare" as stated and envisioned in the U.S. Constitution. Vast prosperity generates lots of tax revenue which is necessary "to provide for the common defense," infrastructure in the form of roads and bridges, maybe even Amtrak, and education.

How much education should be publicly supported is something we could decide through critical analysis in terms of costs and benefits both individually and nationally. Someone mentioned in this thread the possibility of public funding for 2 years of community college or trade school. I think that is worth examining. For example, community college was publicly funded in CA until Reagan became the state governor, after he switched from being a Democrat to a Republican. (As a Republican he understood that the future success of the Republican party and its causes were dependent on a less informed electorate. Unfortunately, that also undermined the middle class and the government tax revenue stream, but those are another story.)

I bring up the community college and trade school options for public funding because too many people are going to college to become computer programmers, or philosophers, or Black studies, or Women's studies, or other majors that the nation can employ only so many of. And not enough people are entering essential trades like electricians, plumbers, carpenters, iron workers, various mechanics, and so on. The nation needs and can pay for workers who can keep the power on and the water running from source through use to sewer.

So the conversation about college loan forgiveness should be framed through the lens of objectivity. What's the point? Maybe the point is simply to garner Democratic Party votes from those who would benefit directly and individually from loan forgiveness. Much as I want to ensure Trump is never re-elected to anything, I don't support such a point. Better in my opinion to analyze and determine what we want for the benefit of the nation, promoting the general welfare, if you will. I want a population with a basic education that leads to an informed electorate, a population that recognizes ad hominem attacks for what they are, and logical fallacies, and a con artist and a grifter when they see one. This of course would bring about the ruination of both the Republican and Democratic Parties as they exist today. Voters who wouldn't be swayed by [Bleeeeep!] would be a tough crowd to lead.

I'm mostly nodding along with you here. Since I don't have much to add other than I agree with your clear, convincing, compelling and logically sound argument. Having said that I do want to point out one or two small things we may or may not disagree on but don't think it means I don't overwhelming agree with what you said.



I agree with this goal but obviously this is not what the public school system or the college system produces. If this is the goal, we are failing miserably.

College for all is a foolish, counter-productive, anti-social idea. Free college really doesn't make it much better. College as it is done today is an indoctrination program that turns our youth into our enemies, bent on destroying our society. College as it was done in past centuries is inappropriate for 90% or more of the population. There are very few who won't be harmed irreparably by spending their first four adult years thinking instead of working. Because the earlier you start putting money to work, the more time you have on your side for your money to work for you instead of you working for money.

College means spending four-plus years producing nothing, thinking - or just drinking - instead of doing. Those early years of adulthood should be spent working hard, learning a trade, starting a family. Instead they are spent at college, doing none of those things. College is four years on hold, four years wasted. That's the optimistic take: often it's four years of dissipation and indoctrination in evil.

When you add to that wasted time a college debt the size of a mortgage on a small house, college becomes a millstone hung around the swimmer's neck. It is nearly impossible to overcome the disadvantage of those four wasted years, will never get back on the track he could have been on if he had been productive for those four years instead of enslaving himself to the lender.

Forgiving the debt without doing anything else won't solve the problem. The universities and banks still win and the students learn a bad lesson (I guess it's the capstone of their sh!tty degrees). The same people that that squandered thier money, energy, or resources in early adulthood getting a worthless degree now demand that we need to squander our money, energy, or resources too. They will never learn to quit squandering things if we just bail them out, paying off their own debts teaches a lesson in not squandering things, if we bail them out instead of learning not to squander we are teaching them learned helplessness. Learned helplessness leads to depression, anxiety and mental illness. We have too many mentally ill people in the world. Mental illness leads to suffering. Everyone suffers from mentally ill people both the normal non mentally ill people suffer by having to be around the mentally ill but most of the suffering is borne by the mentally ill themselves. Making more mentally ill people makes more suffering, for everyone. So we should do less things that cause mental illness to reduce the suffering in the world. Colleges right now are increasing the mental illness in the world, free college or college loan forgiveness will increase the mental illness in the world. So lets make less people mentally ill.

Ok now for the banter.

And yes you never directly said that I have horrible opinions but sort of implied it by taking my joking insult as compliment so I was just riffing of that by joking further.

I rate that post as 5/5 pillows boomer, so you are not as senile as you sometimes come across as so the day of the pillow is further out for you. I know you have a dry sense of humor and I get that you have jokes and sarcasm that goes over most people's heads kind of like how most of mine go over yours.

College for all is counter productive, but not all college is indoctrination. Your all or nothing stereotyping of what college is, is in error. College is a lot of things. I don't think teaching the critical thinking skills necessary for math and science comport with your indoctrination theme. Some of the classes in the Humanities probably do. My most indoctrinating class was Social Philosophy, taught that year by an Assistant Prof (who went to school at Berkley when it was Bezerkley) who was very much a Marxist. That class was far more trying than it needed to be. But that was a long time ago, yet the wailing of the far right hasn't changed. They are certain that the public universities are teaching the students communism. The do teach about communism, and there are people on campus who promote communism, just like there are Young Republicans who promote Trump, of all things. But mostly colleges teach classes in math, natural science, social science, technology, and the humanities.

Going straight from high school to college is better for some than for others. Just as some will be better off working for a bit, especially if they will benefit by developing work skills that will make it easier for them to pay for their college costs.

BTW, I used to over-use sarcasm. I made a conscious effort over 20 years ago to reduce my sarcasm use by 90%. I've been largely successful, and I'm a better person for it.

I agree and want to add that college is always judged by its failures, like waistoids living in parents basement with general studies degree. But look at the most successful folks out there and look to see if they went to college and you may find a pattern. People are quick to remember non-college educated success stories and college educated losers, yet they are dismissing the majorities in both those groups.

You are incorrect only in your perception of my belief. I'm not all or nothing stereotyping college, I'm stereotyping the people who went to college and come out of it demanding college loan forgiveness only. STEM, the trades and are such are generally worth it. I would say that your degree was worth it, even my degree was worth it to me even though I'm not using it. I'm just stereotyping the ones who won't pay their loans and are demanding others do, you know the rioting antifa Evergreen crowd. Not all college graduates are like that but all the ones out screaming in the street about paying off loans they took out are.

I think that if you came out of college without the understanding that college is just one of many paths in life, you are outraged by the fact that college isn't free your education was worthless. These people even say "I'm six figures in debt with a worthless degree," so not all people that went to college have a worthless degree but all the ones outraged and demanding other people pay for a degree that they themselves worthless didn't get a real education. They know their degree is worthless, that why they don't want to pay.

Not that all college degrees are worthless, if you or your family paid for it obviously you believe it has value so I will agree with your belief because it was backed up with action. If you are unwilling to pay the degree obviously you don't believe it's worth anything. I don't accept them not being able to afford it, because they can reduce luxuries in their life and even a minimum wage job will eventually pay it off. If you say your degree has value and you or your family paid for I believe you. If you say your degree has no value and you and your family refuse to pay for it, I believe you too.

I know people that lived in luxury apartments with financed money and I know other people that were homeless living in tents or vans that went to college. Why should that latter person pay for the former just because he was willing to make the sacrifice to be homeless when broke in order to get ahead.

I'm just pointing out that there are other options, nobody forced you to go to college and that it is extremely possible to be successful in life without going to college because the Bernie people don't seem to understand this either.

The thing about philosophy is that it is entirely possible to get an A in a philosophy class while simultaneously explaining just how wrong the professor is on everything he said in a very detailed way. It just has to not contain any logically fallacies. Telling full of sh!t marxists they are full of sh!t is allowed and actually encouraged. I have had professors give me an A in class straight up tell me that even though they disagree with my point of view it's still logically valid and he thanked me and said he was glad I was in the class because without someone to argue back and forth with he couldn't even teach the class or use the Socratic method without an interlocutor. Maybe he was a full of sh!t Marxist or maybe he was just taking one position like a devils advocate? Kind of like how I stake out extreme positions not because that's what I 100% believe, but I'm staking them out because I want people to argue against it. The truth is somewhere in the middle but someone has to take one side, someone the other and that's how we find out where in the middle the truth is. Moderate and reasonable opinions don't belong on the darkside.

Nodding yes along with the rest of your post. But it's boring to talk to people I agree with, it's like a circle jerk. I wish there was somebody who was writing posts like yours and mine who were on the other side of the issue.

But other than not quite understanding my actual opinion here is not completely your fault. I didn't provide enough details.

I will rate that 4/5 pillows boomer.

Basically agree except I'm not dismissing the majorities here. I fully acknowledge these majorities. But these majorities are not the ones outraged and demanding college loan forgiveness are they? Not that I've seen and I'm taking the contrary position of college loan forgiveness and the majorities are simply irrelevant to the topic at hand.

It is a minority of people that want college loan forgiveness and that's why they aren't going to get it. I'm just trying to explain to this minority that no they didn't have to do what they did, there were and still are other options and I'm just telling them what I wish people told me back then that took me years to figure out. So they don't have to spend years trying to figure it out and can get to work and start paying down those loans and can sooner correct the mistakes they made. The only message I ever heard is study hard so you can get into college and you will be a success for what you know. Nobody cares what your opinion is or what you know enough to pay for it. They pay you for work, not for opinions or what you know. Yes knowing things can help you do more efficient work so you can do better work and get more money but knowing is not the requirement. I know people that didn't go to college and worked who are successful, I know people that did go to college and worked who are successful but I don't know any people who went to college and do not work that are successful just because they know things. Why do these free college people think they should paid money simply for the fact that they are educated and know something and not have to do any work?

Obviously I can't say everything about everything so I sometimes leave out information that I find irrelevant to the topic at hand. It doesn't mean I'm claiming or don't know that it exists or am dismissing them. They are just not the ones I think are wrong. Me not mentioning these majorites is not dismissing them, it just means I think they are right so I have nothing meaningful to say other than nodding along yes. But sometimes people miss that on the internet because they can't see your facial expressions or body language indicating agreement. If this was in person you salmo and me would just be nodding along with each other.

Rising tuition costs have made college and trade school inaccessible for millions and saddled millions of others with student loan debt! That is why I am working to liberate people suffering from student-debt and make our public college system affordable once again!

In my first year as a Member of Congress, I co-sponsored the College for All Act, a law that will establish tuition-free public college and trade school, and through the Student Debt Cancellation Act of 2019, we will forgive outstanding federal and private student loans of all previous and current students in our education system! In doing so, we’ll create an easier pathway to economic stability and provide a $1 trillion boost to our economy over a 10-year period!

"College for All" is a non-starter, in large part because not everyone is entirely capable of or (more importantly) at all interested in earning a college degree. That said, if "Career Education for All" is on the table, I'm all in (and willing to pay my share if needed). It benefits all of us to have more of our fellow citizens gainfully employed and doing stuff they're good at.

One way to positively influence that outcome might be to assess students midway through high school (as many other countries do), to see what professions/vocations they might thrive in. Send the academically-motivated to college and those who are vocationally-motivated to appropriate trade schools or training programs, all on the public dime. Expensive to the point of being somewhat painful? Very probably. Worth it? Almost certainly, especially when comparing the social benefits on Earth to those achieved by putting billionaires in space.

The plan I read was for two years junior college or trade school free.

TL;DR

That's about as far as I'd go. And it should be based on need. If your parents have lots of money, you don't qualify. Otherwise it would cost too much for tax payers.

There is a responsibility for people who decide to have kids, that they should prepare themselves to support those kids' education...or just don't have them. And if the ultrasound shows you're going to have a lazy deadbeat fat fvck, terminate the pregnancy.

lol

Damn, talk about a stem cell surplus.

Or is it full circle back to how a child turns out is a direct result of how they're raised?

Wouldn't that be something, run the ultrasound and the deadbeat meter pegs, so terminate... Pretty much every democrat wouldn't have kids in the future...

Keith

Says the fishing rod biologist.

Most Dems wont have kids anyway as they prefer nailing the wrong hole.

Isn't that how you were conceived?