Why are they netting the Chehalis two days a week when the sportmen can't keep wild fish? It's not that i want to keep a native fish, but isn't the point that the returns are low that's why we are to release all natives. Oh I forgot the indians nets only catch hatchery fish.THE FISH WILL FALL TOMORROW!!!!!!!!!!!!! FISH ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What ever happened to the fun days of rolling bails of hay into Indian nets? They make millions off casinos, the government still subsidizes their income and they still get to net fish. I bet the don't even eat the fish they net, or at least they eat a small percentage of them. I thought they were the ones that were conscious of 'mother earth.'

I know I wouldn't eat any fish from the Chehalis, it's one of the top 10 polluted bodies of water in the Nation. Wonder how it got that way?

Nets! I have wrote to our director and regional hq about escapement of wild steelhead in the Chehalis. The only!!!! reason this river and the Satsop have a healthy run of natives is this system usually gets a high water every week or two. With no water this year escapment has been hurt!!!!! I know i fish this system over a 100 trips a year. By the way i havent heared nothing from WDFW.

It's been polluted like that for decades, potter. You're just hearing about it now.

I respect your treaty rights to fish, but don't even try to assert that the nets aren't one of the biggest obstacles these fish are facing currently.

Fish on...........

Potter your logic amuses me. If it is so polluted why are the indians netting it? Enlighten me I'm conciously incompetent.

ROLLING BALES OF HAY USED TO BE FUN, BUT IT ONLY PULLS NETS TO THE BOTTOM OUT OF REACH OF THE INDIANS WHO PUT IT THERE, BUT IT CONTINUES TO KILL FISH, SO PLEASE DON'T DO THIS.

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really potter,your tribes don't seem to have a problem selling these tainted fish do they.

Fished here on Sun. we saw A net being pulled out ,had about 20 fish in it ,also watched throw A little bit darker buck too the bank to go to waste . We motor over after he had left,this fish was definitly edible & was not spawned out ,so why would he do this? In case your all wondering it was A hatchery Steelhead.

Yep funny thing is that the slang changed subsitance to comercial---------now i'd like to know how a family can eat 4 elk ----8 deer ---600 #s of manilla and little neck clams----100 bushell of oysters---400 #s of steelhead---2000#s of salmon-----600#s of dungeness crab----800#s of goeyduck---
all in a day-----------or a week or hell times that by 6 to 10 and i bet the whole damn tribe cant eat that much

if you want to be seperate from the usa---then fine ---pay a toll to use the highways get off of welfare ----other wise pay the impact fees and the licensing that all the rest have to, to use the resourse in a comercial manner

its all bull**** the way things are just put aside and our friggen congressmen and congresswomen wont stand up to this crap cause it might impact there flight to the top crap crap-------------where the hell are the leaders

its time for everyone to stand up-----------there is no such thing as a minority ----there is edgucation out there and moneys available and has been for a long time----------im tired of payen for the decline of my rights--

ventin is not helpin much any more ---wish i knew how to file the paper work


Will

Sorry Potter, I can agree that Quinalts probley don't eat fish from the Chehalis but the sure make alot of money from the huge amount of fish they net out of this system. The sight of driving over the bridge to Cozy in the fall with nets coming of each side of the bank as far as the eye can see is pathetic. I agree that tribes should have the right to a harvest of natural recsourses, but it should be in a amount that will feed there own family. No more than that.

Potter Does the Quinalts put any thing into the Chehalis system, no they only take!

Well, did I step on some toes or what? I'll try to answer the questions as best I can. Please understand my intentions are not to play the blame game. The pollution remark was made because it seems so many on this board can only see the corks in the river.While it's true wild steelhead are being killed by the nets it's also true, that at the same time, wild salmon and steelhead smolts are dying from the pollution.

Dan S-I think everyone who reads the Daily World knows about the pollution problem Grays Harbor has. The biggest factor has to be the high mortality rate on the smolts.

Humptime- The tribes fish because they have a legal right to.

Scotty98541- The fish sell the same as any other, they taste different to me however.

Rich G-I'm not the tribal spokesperson so I can't answer your question(s). My opinion is that the tribes will continue to fish as long as the co-managers tell them that there are harvestable fish.

Ihookum-By law, tribes and non-tribal split the harvestable fish.

Silverspoon-bathtub Bob- The Quinaults raise coho in the Ocean Shores Marina. They have been involved in raising steelhead at the Humptulips hatchery and were helping with the "Long Live the Kings" project. They spend a lot of money each year conducting spawner surveys on the Chehalis and it's tributaries for steelhead and salmon escapement estimates.

I believe that a lot of members of this board are directing their frustrations at the tribes. The tribal fishermen are only doing what they have a legal right to do. The co-managers decide if they fish or not. I'm not suggesting slamming the co-managers either. If you have a problem with the current method (science) direct your resources at developing and proving a better one.




[This message has been edited by potter (edited 03-21-2001).]

I ain't on nobody's side. Just telling it like it is. Hell yes, if the law gives you something, you're going to take it. When this increased your speed limit from 55mph to 60mph, don't tell me you don't step it up. When they increased the coho limits of 6 adults/day last summer, I saw a [Bleeeeep!] load of people pulling out 6 fish (including the guides). Being a conservationist is great, but you people just keep it to yourself. Breaking the law is wrong but working within the law is fine in my book. And that includes the tribes too. Stop the the crying and blaming OK.

I totally agree with you. It just seems that sportsmen are cheapskates (no offence intended). I worked hard collecting signitures for the Ban All Nets innititive and I believe that it failed because of lack of funding. It was decided that if we could raise $1 million, it would pass because we could afford to get it into the media, TV advertisements, radio advertisements, etc. Instead, we couldn't get enough money, and all uninformed voters saw was adds saying it will cost people jobs. If everyone who bought a fishing liscense chipped in $10 - $20, we could have easily raised the money.

FemFisher,

Check out the Wild Steelhead Coalition BB on this website. The WSC is trying to do exactly what you proposed in your post, and it's already starting to pay off for sportfishers in Washington.

Todd.

Femfisher,

I agree with your premise about PNW wide and multi-species agendas, but that has been tried several times and not achieved the desired outcome. Of course, desired outcome by who is a salient comeback.

That is why, in large part, the WSC choosing to take a specific bite (one issue, one species, for now) at the host of problems that affect recreational angling interests. The more that organizations have tried to do, the more diluted their efforts have generally become. The key for WSC is to concentrate interest and effort on one issue at a time, utilizing every advantage of surges in general public interest and awareness. Focusing intense effort on obtainable goals, one at a time, will allow the WSC to make conservation inroads that have previously been elusive.

Having said that, I should follow with the disclaimer that my opinion and $2.35 will get you a latte'at Starbucks.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Femfisher, I will be the first in line to fork over $25.00 bucks or more if you are willing to lead the charge. Just let me know when you want the money, and I will be backing you 150%. BAN ALL NETS!!!

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Sorry, But I don't buy into any of this "It's part of our heritage" crap that the tribes are always spewing. Bottom line, the tribes are netting the hell out of every river that they can, and our fish runs are becoming extinct as a result. So don't sit back and tell me about all the good things the tribes are doing for our fish runs,because I see it differently. The tribes are some of the guiltiest parties when it comes to overharvesting and then wasting fish. I saw this at Hoodsport and on the Skokomish last fall, and I'm seeing it on the Chehalis system this winter. To the Tribes: Your unabashed slaughter of our native runs is going to hurt everybody. Please practice some of the dogma that you preach and take your nets out of the rivers so that some fish can get through to spawn. To everyone else: Don't be foolish enough to buy into what the tribes are saying. They know what they're doing is hurting the runs, and they don't care. They do it just because they can.

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[This message has been edited by LittleZoZo (edited 03-26-2001).]

hot straight off the printing presses 50 cal. minimum, three native american limit this comes straight from the new fish regs. extra points if they have a net in hand.Its a bunch of crap that we have to pay for something our ancestors did more than a hundred years ago its not like anyone is around from back then anymore. I mean did they really expect to keep all of this land to themselves for so long with there oh so primitive ways.

ZoZo,
I believe we must be sensitive toward the tribes' legal right to net, but I agree wholeheartedly with the lack of tradition netting involves. That argument just doesn't hold water. The tribes sustainably harvested fish for hundreds of years, but they didn't accomplish that by recklessly netting runs into oblivion. At that time, "traditional" methods (which I would love to see return) were effective on healthy runs. Times have changed. The runs are much weaker, and the tribal slaughter is much more thorough. I am of the opinion that it is no longer dignified to commercially exploit native runs, especially considering the minimal economic value of the practice. I am shocked that the tribes don't realize this. It doesn't seem very, uh, "traditional" of them. They have a legacy of sustainable use of resources, and it would seem to me that they would like to protect that. It's unfortunate that they're losing sight of it.

ZoZo,
I believe we must be sensitive toward the tribes' legal right to net, but I agree wholeheartedly with the lack of tradition netting involves. That argument just doesn't hold water. The tribes sustainably harvested fish for hundreds of years, but they didn't accomplish that by recklessly netting runs into oblivion. At that time, "traditional" methods (which I would love to see return) were effective on healthy runs. Times have changed. The runs are much weaker, and the tribal slaughter is much more thorough. I am of the opinion that it is no longer dignified to commercially exploit native runs, especially considering the minimal economic value of the practice. I am shocked that the tribes don't realize this. It doesn't seem very, uh, "traditional" of them. They have a legacy of sustainable use of resources, and it would seem to me that they would like to protect that. It's unfortunate that they're losing sight of it. Unfortunate for everyone.

Femfisher-- We will be in touch in the near future, and yes it's a bunch of [Bleeeeep!]. Potter, you may pull some wool over some folks' eyes, but I know right where some of the nets are in the Chehalis (granted they are not your tribe) and they are definitely in right now. You should be ashamed of yourselves for selling polluted fish, but I guess if whitey dies and we make money, then we win. Oh yeah, I'm sorry, you don't sell polluted fish, but you're quick to point out that it's legal to do so....regardless if it's morally correct or not.

hey_yall, I am a Quinault member and those are Quinault nets in the Chehalis Sun thru Thur.

I don't know of anyone who has died from eating a Chehalis fish or even anyone who claims any sickness from these fish. I simply stated the fish taste funny to me and that the water has pollution problems.

Flyfisher, you brought up an interesting "word". Traditional! Was that not cedar bark nets, spears, and arrows? When did mono-gillnets "white man technology" become indian tradition?

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Catcher1,
I believe that when the word "traditional" is used it is referring to the tradition of harvesting fish and wildlife for sale and or trade for subsistence purposes. The arguement about them using monofilament nets is lame and very old. They have progressed as we have. Should we go back to riding horses and using covered wagons to get around in? Of course not. Why should they be stuck in the 19th century when we have moved into the 21st! At the moment we have to live with the nets. we don't have to agree with it but we do have to live with them. We have got to get beyond the us and them thing. If we, as sportfishers play our cards right the tribes may be our best allies in this fish recovery problem.

Just my thoughts.

Not all tribes are netting the wild steelhead so don,t bunch us all in together.I mean when i see a snagger i don,t get on here and call all white people snaggers and poachers.

Nativepride does your tribe net?

Potter, If tribe and sport split the harvest then why the quinalt targeted fall chinook fisherie and closure for sport on the mainstem chehalis? Also, are tribes fishing for steelhead or springers right now. I thought steelhead to be almost done?

Like the NETS give a $hit what they catch....OOPPPSSS another Native Steelhead....DOOH

I tired of hearing this BS "Oh we contribute to other systems ....Ya Right using "our" federal tax dollars,so we can be told sorry this system is closed....To sportsman but not Nets ........my venting is done.....for now.......Os

Nativepride, The simple fact that you are using such a comparison for your defense when it comes to the tribes (All the tribes rape of our fish and wildlife populations) suggests in itself that you know what the tribes are doing is wrong(comparing indian netting to other unethical harvesting practices). First off let me address your denial of the tribes taking native fish:Nets do not discriminate when it comes to native vs. hatchery fish. Therefor, if a gillnet is in the water, it is potentially going to kill native fish. Secondly, do not hide behind the implication that snagging is a white man thing. The best snaggers I've ever seen in my entire life are the Skokomish Indians harvesting Fall Salmon on tha Skokomish river ( the indians are only allowed to net three days a week, so they spend the other four days harvesting fish by snagging them with lead and triple hooks. Sad but true.) Lastly, I wasn't going to go there, but as long as you mentioned poaching.... The only difference between outright poaching and the tribal hunts for elk that have been going on in the St Helens area is that some poor, mis guided judge gave you the "legal right" to do it. The tribal hunts are no less morally or ethically out of line than poaching. So don't try to draww comparisons between what tribal and non tribal fishermen and hunters do, because you either don't know or refuse to acknowledge the paralells between tribal harvest rights and unabashed slaughter. Feel free to respond when you come up with an arguement that actually holds water.


[This message has been edited by LittleZoZo (edited 03-29-2001).]

I guess I'm still not up to speed on all this. Or too dense to understand.
I have copies of the Stevens Treaties, and the Boldt decision. I've studied the language, and there is nothing in either document entitling the tribes to a mandatory 50 percent of the fisheries. Where does this perversion come from? Neither the treaties nor Boldt mention commercial fisheries. I do know where it originated, but there appears to be no treaty guarantee to a commercial fishery.
Alaska, B.C., and Oregon appear to allow the tribes a subsistence fishery, without regulation. In my opinion this was the intent of the treaties, as well as Boldt's intent.
From the information I have, any and all commercial fishery in those states / provinces requires commercial licensing, same as here, regardless of ethnicity. (different from here)
I'd really like to hear from someone who's knowledgeable of the subject.

ZoZo

You got to be kidding me. According to your statement, being an Indian and having knowledge of tribal netting makes that Indian guilty of some moral wrong, regardless of whether or not he participates in tribal fishing and hunting. Thats just wrong.

Vic,yes we net and yes we catch wild steelhead.255 this year to be exact we have been done for about 2 months now.Zoie it is not wrong or illegal if there are harvestable fish left.I,m not saying we don,t catch wild fish.As far as the hunting goes we have always had the legal right the courts are just affirming that right.

Vic,yes we net and yes we catch wild steelhead.255 this year to be exact we have been done for about 2 months now.Zoie it is not wrong or illegal if there are harvestable fish left.I,m not saying we don,t catch wild fish.As far as the hunting goes we have always had the legal right the courts are just affirming that right.

Well, it's good to know your tribe is doing its part to make sure the runs stay strong. That's just sick. 255, just your tribe has probably killed more natives than all the sportsman in this state combined. I hope the $.80 a pound you get from them goes a long way in helping your tribe run your traditional casinos and your traditional relationship with the Japanese. Sorry for the rant, that just pisses me off.

Nativepride:

If the tribes were fishing for subsistence I wouldn't complain about tribal fishing at all. Most of these fish are winding up in restaurants (Big Daddy's in Woodinville for those of you who would like to join in my boycott) the Pike Place Market and some are even left to rot on the banks of our rivers. It has become clear to me that the tribes don't give s sh!t about the fish or the game in our state, and are only interested in making money, which makes them just as bad as the buffalo hunters of the late 1800's. You guys continue to net rivers that have runs of fish that are near extinction (The Humptulips Kings for example, and don't even try that "Its Ok because we are targeting Coho" crap either. Nets kill everything that swims into them and those runs take place at the same time). You guys leave Chums and Humpies on the bank to rot after you have gutted the hens. I have heard about tribal members on the coast that shoot upwards of 50 antlered elk per year and sell the horns to Oriental Herb stores in China town. The stories go on and on and on!!! I don't want to lump all tribal members together, and say that they are all bad, I am sure that there are some in the tribes that are as angry as I am about the way that some choose to abuse the resource. For most of us the only exposure that we have to the tribes is the BS that we see and hear about on our rivers and hunting grounds. It is obvious to me that the few that are concerned about the resource don't have enough clout to make the others act responsibly. I think that it is time that we start exposing the tribes and their wasteful behavior. Whoever suggested protesting at the Pike Place market to get this issue out in the publics face was right. Set a date and I will be there!!! It is about time that the general public learned what these A-holes are doing.

Good post! A very good post indeed.

Wa fisher try looking on w.d.f.w website under steelhead harvest.There are alot of wild steelhead killers on the coast.Vic i,m not from the coast so wouldn,t know about the hump or the elk you are referring too.Our tribe bought all our steelhead put them away not one wound up in a restaurant.Zoie no i do not think it,s right for anybody to waste these fish as you are saying.As for leaving the elk it,s hard for me to believe that story.Rich g why would the state side with the tribes i don,t understand?I mean whats in it for them to do that?

Nativepride:

The polaticians side with the tribes because they have been bought with campaign contributions. If I am not mistaken the tribes gave Gov Gary better than a Quarter Million dollars over the last 2 elections.

Claiming that you don't know what is happening elseware in the state is a lame excuse if you ask me. Maybe you guys should take an interest because like it or not what they do affects the way sportsman and the general public views all the tribes.

[This message has been edited by Vic (edited 04-01-2001).]

Nativepride:

You made a post on the string "Something simple thr truth" where you flat out said that you fish for the money, now you are telling us that none of the Steelhead you guys caught were sold. Doesn't sound like things are adding up to me. If that was the truth what is this???

http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003827.html

I thought I would add the address so you could go back and see what you said last month. Your post is the 14th post on the 2nd page and your "show me the money" statement is 3/4 down the page.

[This message has been edited by Vic (edited 04-01-2001).]

What I don't understand is why the State of Washington has allowed the tribes to sell their catch. In BC there is a Province wide C&R on wild Steelhead and the Natives are allowed to fish for substinence(sp?) only. The system works. There isn't the uninformed squabble that goes on in this form. Every time I look you guys are slagging the Natives and blaming them for loss of fishing opportunities. But if the fishing population in Washington TRULY cared about Steelhead there would be a State wide ban on the retention of wild steelhead. Once this occured, the Natives would have less clout seeing that the sporties took the first step. Bottom line......As long as there is a wild kill on Steelhead by the sporties, the nets will NEVER leave the water. Simple as that.
Cheers,
ML

[This message has been edited by float'n'blade (edited 04-01-2001).]

Vic if you read my last post i said our tribe bought our steelhead.You don,t need to draw me a picture i remember the post.