I just wanted to make you guys down south aware that illegal guiding on our classified waters could restrict your access to our fall steelhead rivers. Illegal guiding is becoming a major problem on our fall steelhead rivers. A small portion of visiting non resident anglers have been running guiding operations for their countless "friends". Soon we will have regulations in place so we can limit where and the number of days a non resident can fish in BC. Who can you thank for these changes? Ask around down south and it will be blatantly obvious.

And who are you blatently referring to Mr/Ms
newly registered hide behind hotmail.....

What, was life under the bridge getting boring? No Billy goats to scare off?

Take a walk, eh?

You know the funny thing about this post is that most of the fish camps up there are owned and ran by people from wa., ore. also maybe some of those guide boats are fishing for them selves since the north end rivers are closed. Maybe you should do more investagating before you accuse people of doing somthing they may not be doing. maybe you could grow enough balls and ask if they are guiding . GOOD IDEA A

Why is it that people from up north always wanna start $hit us USA boys.
TM looks your going to have to start regulating again

Take off EA!

I wouldnt be suprised if he wasnt from up North but our own backyard.

I don't think our Canuck friends are anymore wrongly territorial than some fishermen in the lower 48 are. Just as roughshod wrong down here. ... There are a lot of @hotmail.com addys up in northwest B.C., a couple registered here from the Terrace area that we now have to keep a watch on their ISP numbers for lame flame stuff (unfortunately). As for this Canuck poster, he could be right but shouldn't post spam about it without proper evidence, because he could also easily be wrong. As far as his hollow threat of limiting yank's fishing time up there I really doubt that - the tourism ecomonmic affect is too much for them to risk that; as well as risk retailitory limitation of them fishing down here. So I'm not concerned about his post.

RT

I like to hide behind my hotmail account, but I check my account

Hey Dan,
The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.

I'm not here for about 3 or 4 days and y'all let someone from "Canadia" talk smack?

I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Most of what cato has to say in his post is true, unfortunately he didn’t expand on the subject and I’m sure he got the reaction he was hoping for. Cato has not accused anyone across the line of illegal guiding; he has stated, “illegal guiding is becoming a major problem on our fall steelhead rivers”… I would assume that the same applies across the 49th as well? We have illegal guides in the northwest from every country and county imaginable.

It’s sad, but a few rotten apples have ruined things for a good many people up here and regulation changes may soon be implemented. These changes may seriously restrict access to some fine angling for all non-residents. I wouldn’t wish restricted access/days on anyone, but we definitely need a solution to the problem we are facing. The days of tying up fishing holes for extended periods of time (months) for your over-seas business associates may soon be over.

I’d like to find out more about this as well.

You American boys are a little defensive...Cato's post shouldn't piss any of you off. You would think that someone could come up with a relatively intelligent response to the post. Nice try though Dan S.

RT...of course they wouldn't limit American hours on the water, the Sport fishong industry is huge in BC, and a large number of visitors are American. As for his post being spam and unfounded,isn't that the nature of a bulletin board? Cato works for fisheries and probably heard this through the grapevine. By your definition, 95% of the posts on this board are spam.

I find it interesting that this fellow from BC's moniker is the genus for suckers.

If any of you would like the document that outlines the proposed changes to the regulations please feel free to contact me and I will let you have a copy. I personally like RT's americanocentric view on things. Europeans and Japanese generate much more $ than mom and pop in an RV.

As Billy stated illegal guiding is a problem we face from all directions including our neighbors to the East in Alberta. Because they are Canadian they feel they have the right to exploit.

I just ask you guys to keep your eyes and ears open when you are visiting and when you are at home. I would hate to see you guys miss out on a good thing.

Cato,

Since you're going to follow up, why don't you answer your question FOR us. Who, exactly, DO we have to thank for this? Do you have something you'd like to say about it?

Please do, Cato. This is an open forum for the most part.

Now let me ask about this scenario: say a fish camp is owned by a resident of Austria and because he and his wife speak several languages, they get lots of European guys over who stay for several weeks or even a month because they have more liberal vacation policies (and a lot more money than most of us). The owner of the camp fishes on his own, but not with his guests. Is he considered to be illegally guiding? And under your new proposals can this owner count on losing a lot of business?

How about those details?

Bruce

I don't believe it is legal to own and operate a "fish camp" without a guiding license and rod days therefore it is this type of activity that is threatening your access. This type of activity is known to occur already and is hard to police due to the grey areas it encompasses. These fish camps are most likely advertising overseas and if they are taking $ or goods in exchange for fishing opportunities then they are most likely illegal.

Who do you have to blame? The guys who feel they can outsmart the system and run roughshod over resident anglers. I hope you do your part to report any suspicious activities to the appropriate people. Illegal guides and guiding are just as bad as poachers and should be treated the same.

In my opinion, this is a serious problem. I fish B.C. and Alberta every year and have been treated with respect always. But in the last couple years I have seen USA fishers drive north to BC in huge pickups with a chest freezer in the bed, filling the freezer then plugging it in to cheap electricity to take a bunch of dead fish home when their trip is over. I think that this sends the wrong message. We are supposed to be SPORT fishers, not commercial guides.
B.C. is responding by restricting our opportunity on many rivers, notably the Dean and Babine. I can't blame them.
Just my $0.02.

In my opinion, this is a serious problem. I fish B.C. and Alberta every year and have been treated with respect always. But in the last couple years I have seen USA fishers drive north to BC in huge pickups with a chest freezer in the bed, filling the freezer then plugging it in to cheap electricity to take a bunch of dead fish home when their trip is over. I think that this sends the wrong message. We are supposed to be SPORT fishers, not commercial guides.
B.C. is responding by restricting our opportunity on many rivers, notably the Dean and Babine. I can't blame them.
Just my $0.02.

ct,

This is the type of activity that will ruin it for guys like you. What we really want is quality angling for all user groups. Guys who feel they can take advantage of our limited ability to enforce the regulations will get you restricted purely by association. The best thing to do is report this activity and be a good representative for your country.

I'm not sure I can follow the logic here Cato. Illegal guiding will restrict sportsanglers??? Seems like you are shooting yourselves in the foot. This is an law enforcement issue (and I am sure a serious one), why would you punish those not associated with breaking the law? Thats not how its done down here.

Are there local restrictions on who can guide and who can not or is it an issue of BC loosing Guide license revenue? Or maybe too many fish are being harvested?

There are regulations restricting guiding on Classified Waters. Only licenced guides can operate with a set number of allocated rod days. We cannot enforce the current regulations because we lack sufficient funding for Conservation Officers. Right now the CO's spend most of their time dealing with problem bears. Remember our CO's have to deal with fish and wildlife enforcement. Therefore the economical way is to restrict all instead of chasing the few. Guiding licenses generate a very few dollars. In fact we are giving our licenses away to you already. $10 and $20 a day is a joke. I would be more comfortable with anything over $50 a day.

We have such limited enforcement due to financial restrictions, fiscal allotment, jurisdiction overlap… we (BC) have found it much easier to make drastic changes such as close sections of river and restrict access, rather than deal with the bureaucracy that increase enforcement will bring. There are numerous sections of river throughout BC that have been closed due to the actions of a few. If resident and non-resident anglers continue to complain about certain individuals ‘illegally guiding’, something will be done and based on our track record it won’t be for the benefit of ‘all’ anglers.

The problem we face is trying to make it fair for everyone, but continue to reap the benefits of the out of province dollar. Possibly this board has some solutions to our dilemma?

In order to be eligible to guide in British Columbia you need to either be a Canadian citizen, "or" have the status of a permanent resident of Canada. That is taken directly from the packet the Ministry of Environment, Lands and Parks sends out to prospective guides.

As is usually the case, there are a number of ways to dance around the regulations, and I'm sure some people do, especially those looking to get Dual Citizenship.

It appears to be more of a user group issue. Maybe the guides are lumped together as one user group and sportsanglers are lumped as another. It is your opinion that the guides are taking more than their fair share of fish. This is mostly due to non-local illegal guides.

In the states, guides are part of the sportsangler user group and as such have equal access to fishing opportunities. If you are trying to limit the amount of rods for guides, it truly sounds like an allocation issue (who gets to catch the fish.)

Its easy for me suggest improvements, knowing I will never be part of the solution implementation, but that won't stop me. It seems as though you are using the "Boot Camp" approach when you punish everyone when only a small fraction of the group is breaking the law. This doesn't solve the problem of illegal guiding, you will simply push them onto another river and will deny access to those who are abiding by the law.

Law enforcement has to be part of the solution and catching illegal guides needs to be made a higher priority. The "we don't have the resources" excuse is an easy way out. Come up with a another solution.
1.) One suggestion I would make would be with local help set up surveilance operations targeting those you believe to be the biggest abusers. Now that sounds like fun!
2.) An increased surcharge could be part of generating revenue to hire additional CO's. I know its common to charge non-residents surcharges for fishing in Canada, maybe this can be increased, but remember you are discouraging visitors.

Non locals are not charged extra surcharges down here and guides have full access to all sportsangling area's, so the differences in fishing "cultures" is part of the problem. Down here, eventually you will get nailed if you are fishing illegally, but I would assume many guides don't feel they are breaking a major law because of the differences in what is acceptable guiding practices in the states vs. Canada.

I just finished reading all the comments concerning this issue. What a bunch of Hog- Wash! It may not be right, but the non-residents that do go to Canada and guide kind of break even with the Chinooks for many of there own actions that they do in the States. I know for a fact, that even those in the Canadian Police force (The Canadian Mounted Police) may be some of the biggest hypocrites known. When Candia's best send out the "wrong message" we should react back! I know that a lot of you "Chinooks" won't like what I am going to tell you but so what!

For the last 12 years, I have known a friend who lived on the Cowlitz and has invited a number of people who lived in Canada to come and fish the Cowlitz each year. I have personally met many of them myself; including a Canadian Mounted Police Officer. His wife was also a "Mounted Police Officer. I personally took the man and his daughter out fishing for spring chinook and Coho on the Cowlitz several years ago. Even that Canadian officer didn't buy or purchase a none-resident license for his daughter, he allowed his daughter to bring in at least 2 nice Springer's and then used "his punch" card to make to fish legal. But before I could say jack ****… he hit the fish in the head, end of story!

Was that right… No! Do 2 wrongs make it right...No

So the story goes on and on about the many ways we abuse the laws by both sides. But what really gets to me is that they (the Canadians) have the balls to gripe on this BB about illegal fishing or guiding in Canada, and then play dome to the fact that are breaking their own laws every single day. I also know that they (these same people) along with many other Canadians have no problems asking us to bring across their borders all the rods, reels, and fishing tackle that we can carry and sell it to them at cost, or maybe a slight bet higher, because they KNOW what they will have to pay much more taxes if they buy it out of state and bring it back home legally. This also goes for "other stuff", other then fishing tackle! I know for a fact, that a friend sold his boat to a Canadian about 4 years ago and was asked to sign an affidavit stating that it was it a "gift" so he could bring it across their border without paying the extremely high taxes. It was not a "gift" but was sold to the Canadian for a pretty good profit! I don't know for sure if it was the Mounted Police that bought it, but I do know that he (the Mounted Police) knew about the purchase. In fact, to the best of my knowledge he was using the same boat to "guide" from! So Candia, don't ***** too much until to clean up own your act!

Cowlitzfisherman,


Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Cowlitzmoron,

I know a guy that regularily fishes the Colwlitz, and he came up to fish in BC, and I saw him kill 13 wild Steelhead, and one of my friends also told me about a guy he knows from Oregon that came to Canada and bought smokes that didn't have a tax stamp,and he smuggled them home because they were cheaper and I think he might have been a Police Officer, and once I also saw this guy from......

Get a grip man, we have our **** together, thats why Americans dream of a trip north to BC. You never hear anyone from BC planning their dream vacation to WA state,I wonder why.

float'n'blade,

Your words speak for themselves!
I need not say any more to this BB about you. You cant not face the facks, can you? If you saw him kill 13 wild steelhead, why didn't you report him? Are you a Canidain Mounty?

f'n'b,

Claiming that ol' Canada has their $hit together and we don't is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Take the population of THIS country, and drop it in Canada and see how well your fish do. You Canucks try to directly compare your fisheries situation to ours in the lower 48, and you just make yourself look like an a$$ in doing so.

cowlitzfisherman is probably right in what he said about Canadians, you're probably right in what you said about us Yanks. The fact remains, though, that there are many transgretions on both sides of the border, but GUESS WHAT? WE didn't show up on a B.C. fishing bulletin board and start pointing OUR fingers at everybody. See the point?

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: Dan S. ]

WOW !!! THIS IS HARD TO MAKE OUT... On one hand we have a guy who says that its a big problem that people come up from the U.S and do guiding on the sly. Then some other guy says he thinks we should pay at least 50 dollars a day to fish up there... I think what your really trying to say is that you don't like us fishing up there. Thats pretty funny. I wonder how the lady who owns the hotel that we stay in feels about that.. how about the guy who owns the resturant??? it goes on and on..

Then some other dude gets on and says he knows or saw a guy kill 13 wild steelhead.. That ones on you buddy.. ( anybody think that really happened ???)Call a cop... thats just insane. And the B.S about not being able to because they are gone chasing after bears???

The whole issue is you just don't like people from the states and thats just fine. I'm really sorry you get about 54 cents on a dollar on every paycheck then give up half of that in taxes, hell, I would be a little cranky myself.

All the crap about having to get a guide to fish classified waters will never happen. The only people who think thats a good idea are the guides themselves and the guys who own the fly shop. Anyway, see ya in october. I'll be there and we will spend a bunch of money same as ever. We will fish hard and within the law and we will be real nice to your fish. A steelhead is a thing of beauty no matter where it swims

Its unfortunate that BC has decided to pursue this method, but once again the actions of a few are forced on the many. I cannot feel any pity for visitors from other countries who will suffer the consequences as a result of this illegal guiding crackdown.

You who want to rub our noses in your almighty dollar and your lower taxes are reaping the benefits of a stronger and more market oriented economy. In that econmy what suffers is everything that can be is sucked out of the land for the almighty buck. We who live in Canada do suffer from higher taxes and lower income, but we get to enjoy all that nature has to offer. I can guarantee you that no matter how much money you as visitors bring in to this country, it will never compare to the amount of money I will invest in to this country from cradle to grave so that I can fish in God's country. You used to have God's country down there too, the difference is you f***ed it all up for your almighty buck. I guess it comes down to choices.

I have no interest in fishing in the lower 48 (nothing to fish for). If you want to come to Canada (a foreign country....NOT the 51st state) you gotta play by our rules.

Soon you'll all be part of "The United States of North America" then who will you blame....at least we'll finally get some good beer....Os

You guys are really giving Canada a bad name..oh wait..it already is(do you know that their are 5 vowels in the language??)

By all means, don't come south...The challenge of fishing down here would probably overcome your feeble, pink worm infested minds

As far as their not being anything to fish for, well, some of us still don't have too much of a problem knocking the crap out of them on a regular basis

So stay up north, watch the last team to play Canada's only sport migrate to the US(and CURLING is not a sport), and keep flaming on this board crying about Americans ruining everything for you....but you better pray China's troops don't show up off your shores, it's gonna be awfully hard to defend all that land nobody lives on with 13 foot knucklebusters and a case of Labatt's...

Favorite oxymoron: "CANADIAN MILITARY"

BTW-- To you great 'stewards' of the land... fly over Vancouver Island sometime and comeback here and explain to me the intricacies of your 'environmentally friendly' logging practices


[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: backlash2 ]

in the united states when someone is breaking the law you call the proper authorities to handle the problem.i can't believe the canadian authorities are too busy chasing bears to enforce the laws. .scott

Backlash,

You definately do no service to your argument when you attempt to instruct us dumb Canadians about the English language, and in doing so spell "their" incorrectly. The word should be "there". You approach your attempt to debate intelligently with the same accuracy that you approach your command on the English language.

I would also like to thank you for being first in the areas of forestry rape & pillage. Thanks to your past practises of logging we have been able to recognize your mistakes prior to making more of them ourselves.

You may also want to check the nationality of those who will win the Stanley cup this year. You will find that it will be at least 70% Canadian. With regards to the importation of sports, you should really review your history records. You will find that basketball and football both originated in Canada. Early on, we recognized that both those sports were pretty stupid to watch and play. You just took them and f***ed them all up in the same manner that Bettman is attempting to screw up hockey.

With regards to the Chinese coming over here to invade us...too late, it has already happened in Vancouver. Final comment - I love your moniker (that's a name) "backlash", it perfectly defines your attitude as well as the neuron processes you obviously suffer from.

Have an excellent day.

Now that the spelling lesson is out of the way ...I'm curious...You've just taken credit for more good things, and past off the blame for more bad stuff...You guys in cAnAdA must be freakin' perfect!!! All this *****ing and moaning....Has anyone in Canada EVER done ANYTHING wrong??? I've seen a lot of your women and I guarantee some SERIOUS flaws exist in the gene pool...The Canadians on this board gloat about having it all figured out...so what's up with some of the steelhead runs your Fish bio's are crying about disappearing....Your logging practices SUCK, but you blow it off by saying that 'American's sucked first'...that's an intelligent defense.
And what's wrong with football?? You guys got sick of it because you couldn't keep the blades on your skates from sinking into the mud all the time.
My only real point is this....You're ****ed up, we're ****ed up, everybody's ****ed up, quit crying about it and do something constructive!!! I suppose NOBODY who lives in Canada poaches, or litters all over the river, or runs a sled right through a hole a driftboat is fishing...it goes on and on. Quit trying to seperate yourself from us, like you're higher up the food chain, or social class. We're all fisherman, and we all have to deal with morons that guide with no license, poaching, etc.

British Columbia can't be that great, or more people might ACTUALLY LIVE THERE...

BTW- At least one of us isn't afraid to admit they make mistakes, so "there" you have it.....and it is "practices" with a C...

[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: backlash2 ]

Given the direction this thread has taken, let's not forget that there are roughly an equal number of idiot a$$holes per capita on both sides of the border.

I'm concerned about where this thread is going. Go back to Cato's original post; I think he was just being helpful. This is not a Canada bash. We'll all have happier and more satisfying trips north if we remember that we are visitors to their country.
About three years ago, Al Troth, a respected Dillon Montana guide, published the same comment regarding unlicensed "guides" on central Montana rivers. The result? Check the current regulations: some rivers closed to non-Montana residents on weekends.

Right on Keta. WE all love to fish and we all have problems in Our fisherys WE have to work on together. There is no difference between U.S. loudmouths and B.C. loudmouths. I have always enjoyed my times up north! And I go because things are so screwed up here. Hey I have an idea < let's tell them how to run their country!

[ 05-11-2001: Message edited by: Jerry Garcia ]

You are right ctfly. I was trying to get some help from one of the user groups through education and increased awareness. After all we all have to be stewards of the resource. It is not alright to visit a country and be ignorant of its laws. This is a famous excuse with the non english speaking visitors. If you see something this summer and fall that is wrong please report it. It does threaten your future access and I would hate for the government to get your $6US/day for a license and the $40US a night for a hotel room. After all you are the high roller users of our resource.