Several friends of mine have repeatability asked me to post the issue about "guides" fishing for their clients. More directly, should a fishing guide be allowed to fish for another person when he/she is also fishing? The question has been repeatability asked; what difference is there between a hunting guide shooting your game for you and then handing you the gun and a fishing guide hooking you a fish and handing you the rod? I know that this will be a "hot" issue to talk about because a lot of guides read and post on this BB. After 11 years of guiding, "I've been there, and done that", so I too would like to hear your opinions on this topic!

I am bringing this issue up now because several people have come to me and told me that they are seriously considering developing a petition, especially on the Cowlitz, which would limit how a fishing guide can assist their clients in the catching of their limits. To what degree do you think a fishing guide should be allowed to personally participate in the act of filling out of another person's fish limits? Do you believe that they should only "guide" and not personally fish for their client's limit? Does paying a "fee" to a guide give you the right to have 2 rods fishing for you when everybody else can only fish with one?

Many states already do not allow a fishing guide to fish for their clients. Would you rather have your fishing guide "teach" you the river or water and the tricks that it takes to catch fish there, or would you rather have him give you that "extra" advantage of having another fishing rod fishing for you or your bodies? Would you personally want to take a fish that was hooked by a guide, or would you want him to land his own fish?

I know that this can get to be a real heated topic, but what better place is there then this BB to fully discuss this issue?

If such a rule was to take effect, should it apply only to certain rivers or should it apply to all rivers and streams in Washington? There's been much talk of limiting the days when "guides" can fish with clients on certain rivers or streams. What are you feeling or opinion about that one? Remember, I am only the messenger…not the promoter!

Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????


[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]

I have no problems with guides fishing, or helping a client get their limits, as long as it's ok with the client.

I guess I don't understand the logic of preventing a guide from fishing. If they purchased a WA State Fishing License, then I don't see why they can't get a line wet at their clients approval. As long as the fish are punched, who really cares who caught them?

Seems rather silly to me.

For catch and release, no problem here with the "hook and hand-off", but on catch and kill, I think you need to get your own fish. The client is paying for the idea of fighting a fish, so if you will release them, fine. I just don't feel good about the kill part if you didn't do it yourself. Why not just go to the store?

I have regularly let my son reel in fish that were caught on either rod, but we release most (90%) of the trout we catch.
He has caught two sockeyes, what a long process that was. A four year old with the rod in the holder the whole time, but he got them in. We did keep them.

A similarity to this is the party fishing done on charter boats where the little old lady in the pink rainsuit catches everyone's second fish. I have also caught other people's fish on charters, 37 tuna in two days but I only kept 11, but I was paying right along side the others. There have been times when I have handed my rod off to another as well.

I would rather have the guide "guide" me, not hook my fish. Just my thoughts with no judgements made against others who choose to do otherwise.Andy

It certainly depends on the tactics the guides are using to catch fish. Having the extra rod does help produce fish obviously, but when freedrifting like the cowlitz, lewis, bigger rivers there are advantages of having the guide fishing rather than catching fish. When freedrifting you're as good as your guide because he is controlling everything. The presentation being the most important part. I know when I'm running the sled it helps to have a rod in my hand fishing because what my rod does everyone's rod does in the boat and if you couldn't actually "feel" what your baits are doing, your catch rate could drop a little. Feeling the angles, currents, speeds, all the factors to making the perfect drift everytime which results in fish to the boat.
But all in all, I'd leave it up to the client to choose whether or not he wanted the guide to fish. If the client is out to catch and release it doesn't really matter anyway. But for those that usually hire guides that just want to fight and land a fish I'd beleive they're happy to have the guide up the odds. Some people are just tough to teach, and when they pay the money they do it's easier to learn when you see what you are supposed to be doing..
Keith

i don't understand what the differance is between a boat limit in the salt and a guide handing off is pole, its still a limit no matter how you look at it, you paid the fee for a license to be limited to a number of fish, not every one is experanced in fishing that why some people hire guides. the state wants people to get interested in fishing to increase revenue but if they never get the chance to feel the thrill why would they support the sport, a guide is basically a sale rep for the state for those who have never fished befor

Great point doug, it all revolves around money!
Keith

I agree with STLHDR1, especially side drifting, the guides rod is important for feedback that everything is working right and it also helps give the client an immediate rod after a break off on a snag. It can be a big challenge to fish, retie, and run the boat on the guides part. You can also consider him fishing actually an instructional demonstration also.
Another type of fishing where it is important is trolling spinners like in Tillamook Bay. Generally the guides tries to keep clients weight droppers just off the bottom, but the guide is always dipping the rod and checking where bottom is. The current, boat speed and wind effect the spinner depth critically (that's the secret).
Personally , I enjoy the opportunity to tell the guide that I don't want his &%$*%in' fish!

The bottom line is having the correct amount
of harvested fish for the amount of legally
licensed fisher people.I have no problem with guides helping there clients to reach the correct harvest number for that boat for the day.Some clients need this help and others don't,it should be up to the client.Just like I have no problem with fishing all rods tell the limit for the boat
is obtained.Good luck,
STRIKE ZONE

P.S. If it's a native steelhead C-n-R guided
trip I wouldn't want the guide to hand his rod to me.

Most of the people on this board would probably find it insulting to be with a guide and have him hand off the rod to us. If and when I hire a guide (which is verrrryyy rare) I do it for instruction, just like you would pay for any other type of training and I would not want a handed off rod. As for the guides clients I think that they are there to take fish home so they don't mind taking a handed off rod. Bottom line, it's up to the client not the state. As long as the boat doesn't exceed the daily allowable limit, especially on rivers like the Cow that is 99.9% hatchery anyway, who cares??? My .02
Good luck and tight lines, Jeff

I should have stated earlier that you're paying your guide to be just that, a guide. Guiding includes safely operating the boat, and doing all the little things (as stlhdr1 pointed out) that makes your trip successfull. If the guide can do all of that *and* fish, so be it. Fine by me. If fishing impears their ability to get down the river safely, or to operate whatever boat (sled or drift boat)correctly, and for me to have not a good time, then no, I won't let them fish.

Fortunately, I can vouche for Bob. Yes, he can operate his boat and *still* fish at the same time!

I'll be the the first to say I'm not proud. If any of you hook a fish and want to hand the rod off to me, well all I can say is, cool! Fish on!

Yes, I have a problem. I am a fishing addict.


[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: parker ]

depending on what type of fishing your doing what constitutes handing off the rod, say two cliants in the boat with a guide, i'm going to use springer fishing with bait divers as an example poles are in the rod holders cliant one limits, you still can legally catch 4 more so cliant two basically has 2 rods he is fishing is it the prinicaple of the matter that technically one of the rods is the guides and if the fish is not hooked on the rod cliant two has been useing all day its not really cliants twos fish? i know it doesn't really feel the same when your assigned rod doesn't hook the fish ?

Yeah but when I take the wife and kid out and I'm pulling plugs or baitdivers they get to play any rod that goes off. So if we make if wrong for the guides what is the diffrence between them and me handing off rods. And I am always goin to let the wifie or my son play the fish its alot more rewarding seeing the smile on their faces.

Tight lines

Kevin

SRBC

I’ve been with a number of guides and each time it has been different. Sturgeon fishing with Dan Ponciano four clients in the boat with three rods out and that was because three was all he could safely handle and watch everything else. However when we were shad fishing for bait we had five rods out. Springer fishing with Dave Rodriquez three clients in the boat and four rods out. If it weren’t for the guide’s rod we would have been skunked. Drifting the Klick with Dan Little two clients with two rods out, the guy fishing with me and paying the bill was from KC. And the biggest thing he ever hooked was a four-pound large mouth. When my rod went off and I handed him my rod not only did his eyes light up but I felt good too. So to deny a guide that option would be bad for the client as well as the guide. To me setting the hook is the best and if a fellow doesn’t mind not experiencing the best and settles for the rest well its his memory was well as his $$$.as far as the law goes I could see a waiver being signed by the paying client as to the guide fishing or not. That would give the control to the client and not the pushy guide

Great responses guys!

Just a few more thought to kick around. The game laws say that it's illegal to "Harvest any part of another persons daily limit, except as provided for under the disability license.

The law also states that it's illegal to "Continue to fish for salmon after the daily limit or the adult portion of the daily limit has been retained" This law applies to each fresh water fishermen, not to the total boat catch. Remember, these are fresh water rules and may not apply to the ocean fisheries rules.


So if you got a boat full of your friends (4), and three of them have already caught their limits, do you think that the above law does not apply to you and you friends because you are fishing with a guide or fishing from a boat? And think about this one. The law states that you can only fish with only one rod, right? Then how can you legally take the rod from a guide when the law also states that you cannot "Fish with a rod not under your immediate control"! Since you can only be fishing with one rod, which must be under your immediate control, how does that work when you claim control of the "other rod"? The law does not allow you to pick and choose, you must control only one rod!

What's your opinion on this? Do you think that the courts would weigh in on you side or the game warden side?


Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Thats whats disgusting about many steelhead guides especially on rivers like the cowlitz. Its all about limiting out.. That is a wrong mentality for a fisherman or a guide. If all you are in it for is the meat then go play golf and buy fish at the market.

I of course are more opinionated than most so brace yourselves.

It is wrong for guides to fish and the practice should be made illegal. A guides job is to teach people how to fish you can't teach someone how to do something by doing it for them... This is a horrible trend to see in guiding and points to them being extremely lazy and NOT doing their job. If I was on a trip and the guide wanted to fish without my saying so i'd be angry end the day and refuse to pay for the trip.
I'd also be upset if all the guide wanteed to do was pull plugs all day.
The purpose of taking a guided trip is to learn you don't learn anything if the guide does all the work. Like i said this is about guides being lazy which makes them very poor guides.. I find it thuroughly disgusting and should be illegal.

yes the law should apply and does, but many guides to not uphold that part of the law, i think (just my thoughts) the guides feel that because its not for them and they are providing a service to some one else they kinda of over look it and hope they don't get caught,

I have three boys 10,7 and 4. when we're fishing each boy feels the need to have his own rod out. I have catch records for each. but in reality I'm fishing all three.. in the eye's of the law am I wrong?

not saying i agree, but lets look at it form the other side i'm not a guide but can see some of where thy are coming from, ok you take a couple of cliants out fish for 5 or 6 hrs and don't catch a thing are you incline to pay full price for no fish,and then when you get home tell the wife no fish she tells her friends there husbands find out word gets out so and so fishes with a guide who can't catch fish what a waste of money, i'll never fish with that guy?

I remember back when you could fish two salmon rods (Seattle area). You still only got to bring in two fish.

Many states have rules allowing a second rod, so I don't see ethical problems with that. If you are in a relatively small boat, I don't see where any rod couldn't be considered under anyone's immediate control.

Think about when you're driving your boat, alone, running downriggers and how much time it takes to secure the boat's speed/course before you start fighting the fish. Is that immediate control? How about when you're bank fishing, plunking with a rod in a holder. You walk 20 feet to shoot the sh** with your neighbor and you get a fish on. Is that immediate control?

Interesting questions. Thanks for bringing them up, Cowlitz.

Andy

Ok, guys, here's the skinny. When you hire a guide you pay for a service. For somebody to say that "it is wrong for guides to fish and should be illegal"?????? C'mon, are you a guide? Nah, don't think so. Sorry, but it pisses me off to hear about people who think that all a guide is supposed to do is instruct the angler on the finer points of fishing. Not always the case, my friend.

Suppose you have a husband and wife from New York that are over in Seattle for a wedding and decide that they have a day to kill and would like to fish for the famed salmon and steelhead that Washington has to offer. So they see a flyer in a tackle shop for a guide service. They have no clue about catching fish and want some fish to take home. Well, how are these people supposed to be able to drift fish, flyfish, etc. let alone catch something with these methods. Sooooooo.....you yank a few plugs around, the rods bury, they grab 'em and woo hoo!!! FISH ON!!!! They're psyched from catching fish, enjoying the boat ride, the scenery and their nice bbqued hatchery steelhead. The forementioned couple didn't seem to mind pulling plugs all day.

Then you have the intermediate to advanced angeler. They specify to their guide that they don't want to pull plugs but want to free drift and learn some spoon techniques. Fine, row them around and let 'em fish their butts off. Tell them a few pointers and teach them what they wanted to learn from you.

You see that when guiding, you have clients of different skill levels with different preferences and expectations. I never repeat never fish with clients unless they ask me to or in a pinch when they want me to show 'em how it's done. I'll run three plug rods with two clients, since I do have a license and we all know that three plugs is more aggravating than two. When ok'd by the clients, I'll fish hard and hand off rods as requested. I don't ever punch fish for clients nor do I plan on doing so in the future. I'm not a sellout so why sell off my punches?

In summary, you pay guides for a service in which the guide does what the client wants. If they client wants meat so be it. If they want to learn, then I'll teach 'em. If they want to watch eagles then that's fine too. I hate guides that fish the same way all the time no matter who they have in the boat.

Keeping the clients happy is the key.