In this RCW the words "fishes for" relates to the "act of fishing," not necessarily fishing for another. There is another part to the violation, though. This law specifically pertains to either fishing without a license, or with a license but overlimit (less than 2x) either bag or possession, closed area, closed time, or prohibited method, etc. It would appear that the prohibited method is where we should look at.

The RCWs seem a bit ambiguous, (sorry for the 4 syllable word ), on the issue of which rod is which. The rules state "no more than one line" but they don't say that you have to clearly label each rod, like a crab pot.

It seems that taking turns on the bank of rods would be okay provided nobody has limited out, there is one rod per person, and everybody has a license. The opinion that I got from three different fish cops is this.

All said that if they "SAW" you set one rod, say back bouncing, but then reeled in another, they would consider you to be using two rods, even though there may be two or more people fishing. Two said they would probably use a great deal of discretion if you were setting your kid's line, but one was a hardnosed SOB and said he would carve a ticket anyway. It comes down to a legal phrase called "misdemeanor presence." That means that a law enforcement officer needs to see you commit the misdemeanor for them to ticket you. If you set all three rods up for your clients, and one for yourself, and then afterwards come around the bend where there is an officer, he didn't see you "fish" all the rods, so he can't ticket you. These are the opinions of three WDFW officers, not mine. You might want to take it to court if you do get tagged. That way the ambiguity (sorry, 5 syllables :)) would be cleared up as a matter of case law. Any takers??

They all said the "hand off" is a no-no and would be ticketed if seen.

Andy

Thanks Andy for doing your homework! Your posting should roll a lot of eyes. I think that this subject has informed a lot of us about the law when it comes to fishing and handing off a rod.

Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Not a problem, Bob. Took a few law classes, have friends and family in law enforcement, and I now "read up" on subjects before I post. Take care, and please don't shoot the messenger, I'll shoot back! Andy

andy m this is not directed at you, since when did the games become judge and basically jury, the law is the law what right do the have to say you can set a rod for your kids but not for some one else, i mean like mentioned befor, what if some one from out state or in state for that matter but doesn't know what end of the pole is up.even though there not a kid why can't some one set there rod i don't believe the laws were made (in this case) on age or ability. can't hve it both ways

I mentioned something to my father about this subject (hand off). He said his good friend was up below bonneville this year with his wife and kids. He said he had banked a couple of fish then a officer watched him set the hook, hand the fish to his wife, and she landed it. The officer wrote him a ticket for handing off the rod. I think it's a bunch of crap. When I take my girlfriend out freedrifting, any fish I hook I hand off to her because I want to see her land them all, watching the excitement, seeing her run around the boat like a chicken with it's head chopped off. It's a crack up. So write me a ticket and I'll do it over and over, because I think it's a B.S. rule.
Keith

Doug, now don't be gun shy. I understand your point about laws applying equally to all, but try and look at it this way. Law enforcement officers are given a fair amount of discretion on how they treat situations that they run into in the field If they carved a ticket for every single violation that they saw, they'd have to wear backpacks to carry the extra ticket books. Just sit at any stoplight in any city for 5 minutes.

'Some' officers out there look at the intent of the person. Is the guy out there helping his son or daughter and trying to get the kid involved in fishing, or are they some meat hungry slob trying to bend the rules? Would you think that the two situations differ, and would you want the officer to have some leeway in how they approach each individual situation? I know I would. (I am not calling guides or their clients meat hungry slobs, so please settle down.)

Look at it another way. You are going down the highway, pulling your boat trailer, but one of the taillights is out. You get pulled over and the officer lets you know that there is a problem. He has every right to carve you a ticket for faulty equipment, even if it worked when you pulled out of your driveway, but about 95 percent of the time all you will get is a warning.

In some instances the law is black and white, but sometimes it is gray. The police, deputies and gamies enforce the law. Judges interpret the law. If you have a problem with a ticket, fight it. Explain the circumstances. The judges and juries also have the ability to interpret the meaning of your actions, and may dismiss the charge.

I don't mean to speak for all law enforcement officers out there, but knowing a number of them has taught me 'some' of their thought processes.

Sorry for all of the disclaimers, but I am trying not to offend anyone. I already went there once. Andy

I have to agree with Andy on this one. It's the game wardens discretion to make a call on what law "he believes" is being violated. Just getting a citation doesn't mean that you are guilty of the violation. The game warden writes a citation for the "alleged violating" of a rule, or what "he believes" rule you have violated. The courts will allow you the opportunity to either pay the fine or have a hearing contesting the alleged violation.

Think of this way, the fishing laws give you a perfect example under "You may not: Snag or attempt to snag". The Game Officer makes the "attempt" call!

It's quite clear that the game officers are given certain powers of "discretion" on many issues, Almost always, the court will take the word of a trained game officer over the word of the person who was issued the citation, unless he can make a better case then the officer. Just like the law that says you may not "attempt" to snag. Who else but the game officer can make that on the spot call? He makes the call and if you don't like it, you go to court.

Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

andy m not getting gun shy or need to settle down, friendly discussion, that is why we have alot of the problems we do now a days,i personly have been pulled over for a tail light not working and i did get off with a warning, were as a friend of mine got a ticket for haveing a light out, go figure, was ther on both of them my friend did not get out of line with the officer, it was in fact towards the end of the month which i believe to be quote time, now is this fare ? why do you think so many people want to sue or yell prejeduce, why? because two people treated differently for the same thing. you say the law is black and white and some times gray, it shouldn't be, remember officers are human also they have bad day's like every one else even though they are suppose to be professional it doen't alwaws happen. i am not trying to discredit law inforcement i to for 30yrs have been around law inforcement in the family, i just feel if the laws were inforced the way thy were written, and quit looking for more of them life might alot simpler, thank you doug

Hi Doug,

I will always try to include humor in my posts, so I was just ribbin' ya and relating my response to "don't shoot the messenger, I'll shoot back." to your toned down reply of "andy this isn't directed at you." I thought you were having fun as well. Notice the smile at the end of the statement. The guide/client referrence was not directed at you, again just a preemptive strike in case I set someone else off on a tirade. I am particularly good at that if I am not careful, just ask my wife. (humor)

As to the ability of an officer to use discretion, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that issue. No person can see everything or do everything perfect 100% of the time. We're human.

As to quotas on tickets, they 'generally' don't exist. But an officer who is patrolling for 8 hours should bring something in if they haven't been running from call to call. "Barney" should be able to show "Anj" why we're paying 'him' to tool around the county in a car we all pay for. Take a ride along with your local law some time. You will see people literally "earn" more citations because of their actions. Sometimes they get served additional helpings, sometimes not. Everyone has bad hair days, even bald cops.

Thanks for your replies. I appreciate your input. Andy

P.S. (all of you) Please don't let this one set of responses take us away from the subject at hand. And yes, I usually vote Republican.

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: andy m ]

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: andy m ]

The DAWGS won today RT TM

You must have had a good guide today TM . A good guide will perfectly backtroll plugs to hook fish for guys, without having to hand off rods. . Especially if they only have loose eggs cured in 'cracker'crumbs left. ... The Kid is a plug monkey, so he can tell ya how it is.

RT

I have to agree i think a lot of it lies with the opinion of the law officer. I fished a lot at bonneville this year and we talked to the state cop up there and he said that if the rod was handed of early enough he wouldnt write a ticket but if it was handed off right at the end of the fight to avoid that person having to tag that fish and quit fishing then he would. I dont have a problem with guides handing rods off, the clients are there to catch fish. Some are there to learn but most just want to fight fish. I have handed off a lot this spring and see no problem with it. Anyone who catches a lot of fish isnt going to take a handed off rod anyway. It will only be the inexperienced and young. Just my.02

I say hand 'em off and hand 'em off to me hehehe

I do get clueless sometimes in the front of the driftboat. I lean to one side, look over the side of the boat, don't watch the plug rods so I'm guilty as charged, however, I do know what I'm doing behind the oars and run the show pretty well, thanks

Keith handed me off a couple of his fish earlier in the week and Parker has a bad habit of handing me over the plug-caught fish. There is another point to be brought up which has already been addressed to some degree:

If it's a hatchery fish and you hand the rod off to fill a limit and if you release each and every single witd fish, then who really gives a hoot?

Oh, yeah. Maybe I shouldn't have handed off all of those Wind River springers last month as I hear the hatchery was short quite a few fish and don't have plants for next year

After reading the great posts and opinions, one more question has been brought to my attention. The question is this; If it is illegal as it has been alleged, to hand off a fishing rod after hooking a fish to someone else, such as a client, is it the responsibility of the guide to first inform his clients that they MAY BE violating the fish and game laws by doing so. Or do you think it that OK not to inform them of their options before he (the guide) hands off his rod to them. It appears by the opinions that I have read, that both the client and the guide may both be involved in an illegal act if in fact these alleged law violations are being violated.

As so many of you have stated in your postings, many of the guide's clients are totally naive to what the game laws are and depend totally on what advise their guide tells them. After all, shouldn't the guide know the laws if he is licensed by the state fish and game? The same question goes for the total boat limit issue. Does a guide have a legal or moral obligation to inform their clients about these so-called "gray areas" before they may be put into jeopardy, or do you believe that it's up to his uninformed clients who may even be from out of state to know better? And finally, as it stands right now, all a persons needs to do to become a fishing guide in Washington State is to lay your money on the counter. Should a guide be tested each year when they renew their annual guide licenses on what the current sport fishing laws are?

I think if we can answer these questions on this BB, a lot of the gray areas will be become black and white. What's your opinion?

P.S thanks again to everyone for "not getting mad" and flying off the handle on this issue.


Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????


[ 06-29-2001: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]

Ah, responsibility. In general, most people don't want to be responsible for their own actions. Why blame me for not getting a license or reading the regulations when I can blame the guide!

I side with the law on this one...."ignorance is no excuse for the law".

On the flip side, if the guide get's a citation for the fault of his clients, then I'd sure as snot make sure my clients played by the rulez.

Parker

Most of my post on this issue have been directed towards the letter of that law, procedure and the opionions of law enforcement, but here are my opionions.

Hand-off's. I have no problem with it, but I would rather hook my own fish. Of course after watchin' my boat partner hook 15 silvers in a row without any justice for me, I'll take a hand-off.

Boat limit. No problem as long as it applies to all areas, ocean, sound, lakes and streams. Shrimping is a good example. My 5 year old can set a pot, legally, but it is okay for me to "assist" him in pulling the pot. Can I assist him while fishing in a stream, apparently not. People hit the water for a few reasons. Have fun, fight some fish, and hopefully bring something home. Our license fees go towards fisheries enhancement and I think we should be able to reap some rewards.

Guide disclaimer. You bet. The guides should be held to a higher standard as this is their chosen profession. Would I want to be associated with anyone who could get me in trouble? No. I would want to be informed. If the guide's client breaks the law while fishin' with him, the guide should also be fined. The guide controls who gets on his boat. Too many fines and the guide's license gets revoked. (It would take at least 3)

Guide tests. Absolutely! I don't think that they need to be yearly, maybe every three to five years. Boating safety, boat handling etiquette, fishing regs, and basic fisheries science knowledge should be included. There are a bunch of good folks out there, and I think that this would do nothing but improve the experience for all. There are always a few losers in every social group, and this could help weed out some of those questionable guides. (I am not sure of how many bad guides there are, but I am sure that there is at least one.) I have to renew my advanced hunter ed card every 5 years, why shouldn't they?

Here are my simplified fishing rules as I would like to see them.

Size limits. The fish is either big enough or it isn't. No gray.

Area closures. The boundaries are clear and you can either fish for all fish or none. This would eliminate "bycatch".

Boat limits. 5 people with 2 fish each equals 10 fish. That kind of math is black and white, (unless you live in Bucoda. :)) Whatever is done for these folks to get the fish such as hand-offs, fine.

Gear restrictions. Bait/no bait, barbed/no barb. Doesn't seem too difficult.

Native vs. hatchery, its clipped or not clipped.

Multiple rods. Fine by me, as long as you only bring in your limit. This is allowed in other states.

Fish ID. Learn your fish.

I know I may have left out a bunch, but you get the basic idea. If we get to fish, lets fish until the allowable harvest has been met, then the season closes. I may be way off base with some of my opinions, so sorry if I offend you. Until the rules change, I will go by the rules.

Great subject Cowlitz. Thanks for making me think. Andy

[ 06-29-2001: Message edited by: andy m ]

What a thought provoker! I guess that the laws are not completely thought out, DUH!. The laws will be always subject to gray areas. This is human. Do the best you can. Use your best judgment and be staightforward and honest. You may be rewarded, or you may be penalized. Welcome to 2001!

Oh yeah, one more thing. No more nets.

Just curious, did anyone fish with a license guide on our rivers this weekend, If so, did the guide ask you about handing his rod off to you?


Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
:confused

most of us still just want to get what we can from the sport so the rules are governed by the pro view, we have the right to believe that we are following the rules and thatit is a sport!!! No one I fish with would argue with rules but this thred just for instance has so many disputed view's welcome to Washington!!! PEace