During my last posting, ("Should fishing guides be allowed to hook your limits?") many different opinions were expressed. Some thought that it was legal to hook and hand off your fish to another fisherman, while others thought that it's illegal to hand off a fish to another. There is no question that the current game laws and regulations are very gray or ambiguous on addressing this subject.

To protect our future sport fishing rights, we all need to become more aware of, and fully understand what our "fishing rights " really are. We also need to better understand how WDFW currently has applied the "Fishing Rules" to our sport. There is no reason why these "gray or ambiguous" areas should be allowed to continue to exist. We clearly need to identify and resolved them now, BEFORE we get cited.

Why would anyone want to wait until AFTER they had been cited before asking for a change? During my last posing, 5 "ambiguous questions" or "gray areas" concerning our fishing laws were clearly identified, but not so clearly answered legally.

On July 2, 2001, a formal request was sent by certified U.S. mail, to Mr. Bruce Bjork, Chief of WDFW Enforcement, to clarify exactly how our fish and game laws would apply to the 5 questions that were heavily discussed in the posting "Should fishing guides be allowed to hook your limits?" Examples of possible violations of the fishing rules were also given in the request. WDFW also was asked for a Legal Opinion, and what the possible maximum penalties or fines could be. To date, (July 17) I have not yet heard back from Mr. Bruce Bjork, or his staff concerning the formal request. As soon as I receive his answer, I will post the entire request and WDFW response to the 5 questions.

What fish law or regulation are you still unsure about? Maybe this BB can give us the answers we need. If we don't like what we hear, then this is a perfect opportunity and forum for us to make possible changes to the rules. We all know that fish and game laws are a must, so lets try to make them as clear as possible in the next 2001/2002 Sport Fishing Regulations Pamphlet.

Is there any "OTHER QUESTIONS" that members of this BB have concerning any other "gray or ambiguous" areas in WDFW sport fishing rules and regulations? If we can identify them now, before we may possibly be cited, or issued a citation, we could be saving ourselves hundreds of dollars in possible fines, and thousands of dollars in possible attorney fees!

What fishing regulation or rule are you unsure about?

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????




[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]

Okay, I'll bite.

How about barbless hooks? Just how barbless is barbless? I will crimp the barb down on my salmon hooks and sometimes instead of the barb bending, it breaks. This still leaves a little ledge on the spot where the barb was. I am sure that it still acts a bit like a barb, so I usually file it down just a bit. Is this extra filing necessary, or have I met the intent portion of the regulation by attempting to crimp the barb?

Andy

i heard, not sure where, that when you pass the hook through a wool sweater and upon pulling it out if it hanges up or pulls any wool with it its illagal, it must be filed smoth, or something to that nature

[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: DOUG KELLY ]

Barbless hooks are defined in the regs as "filed off or pinched down". The problem is that once you have done this, then it is still up to the warden to decide if your attempt at flattening the barb is sufficient. I have had some game wardens look at a pinched down and broken off barb while scratching their heads deciding if it is indeed barbless. Others have merely given it a quick glance to see that the effort was made while some will pull it through a wool glove or sweater and if it hangs up at all, well, better be ready to get cited. If you are paranoid then buy factory barbless hooks, just as long as they are VISION that is

This stuff is way too complicated! I don't even own a wool sweater, so now I gotta go out and buy one just to be be legal. Are the gamies carrying them? Is that cashmere (sp?), llama, or angora? Personally I like the feel of mohair. I guess that makes us safe in the summer as sweaters don't become fashionable until after Labor Day. Andy

Is the Raging River(King Co.) and its tributaries above Hwy 18 open to trout fishing under general statewide rules. Special rules list the stretch of river below Hwy 18 as open from June 1 to Feb. 28. If the upper Raging is closed to all fishing, that section should be listed as "closed waters". Sections on many other rivers are designated as such in the regulations. Whoever writes these regulations gets my vote as-- THE WEAKEST LINK!!!

CedarR the upper Raging falls under the Gen.Rules 2 fish limit 8inchs in size anytime a body of water is not listed it falls under the Gen. Rules. Cowlitzfisherman I don't see any grey area in your example of handing off the rod the rules are very clear and when this activity takes place many rules are being violated.First the pole you are fishing with must be under your control not the guides control,you would be fishing with two rods,also the fish is considered caught when it's hooked not when it's landed, you would be able to fish even if you had your limit or snag with impunity as long as you don't "land the fish" and we all know that when this type of fishing is taking place fish are punched on whoevers card isn't filled. I find the laws are very easy to interpret if you take the time to read and learn them to bad not enough people do that.

Last Cast,

I tend to agree with you about handing off a rod. But if you read what the other 65 plus posts think about that issue, you and I are in the minority! That is why a "legal opinion" has been requested. No more second-guessing the WDFW regulations, this opinion will come right from the horse's mouth, and you will be able to take it to court with you. It will be very interesting to see how the Chief Enforcement Officer feels about this and others issues that were addressed in the legal opinion request.

Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Hi Last Cast,

Personally, I like the questions that Cowlitz posts. He makes you think a bit. If we police our own ranks, we can improve our general reputation with the non-fishing public, and law enforcement as well. I think that you will find that most folks who participate on this board take out more trash than they bring in, a practice that I only ocassionally did in the past (I always brought out what I took in). Now I make it a point to let others see that I always take out more trash and make a point to carry a small roll of trash bags in my vest at all times, hopefully it will spread. I increased my efforts because of the opinions expressed by the majority of folks on this BB.

Cowlitz's main goal is to get everyone to the stage that you are at. You know the regs forwards and backwards, just like I know the hunting regs. Do you know if you can now use a .30 cal M1 carbine for deer? I know. I am sure that every year when the regs come out, you read through them to check for changes in the areas that you frequent. That's what I do with the hunting regs. Yeah, I know, I'm a bit of a geek, but it has saved me from false violations at least two times when explaining the regs to a few deputies, I always carry a copy in my pack.

I really wish that fishing had the equivalent of the master hunter program, but of course you know that the state wouldn't sanction a Master Baiter program. I just can't understand why?

I am only getting back into river fishing after a ten year break, so I find this helpful. I never took a break from hunting, so I am very up to date on that.

I don't mean to speak for Cowlitz, but I believe that this is what he is trying to accomplish.

Take care, and don't hand that rod off to me! I'll catch my own fish.

Andy

[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Dogfish ]

Last Cast,

Dogfish is right! We need to think for ourselves. Game enforcement officers issue lots of citations in error every year. Some are chanlleged and some are not. They (the officers) are no different then you or I, and make bad judgments calls from time to time. It's up to people like you and me to educate ourselves.

As just one example, you stated in your last post; First the pole you are fishing with must be under your control not the guides control, you would be fishing with two rods, also the fish is considered caught when it's hooked not when it's landed".

First, lets start from the end of your statement. There is NOTHING in the 2000/2001 regulation pamphlet (pages 11-17) that legally supports that assurion. There is nothing in the regulations that state "the fish is considered caught when it's hooked not when it's landed". So who makes the call on that one? Another example is when you said "First the pole you are fishing with must be under your control, not the guides control, you would be fishing with two rods"

Well, that's kind of true, but not completely so. The regulations say " You may not fish with a rod not under your immediate control". So what does that really mean? Does it mean that you can not walk away and leave your rod unattended, if that was the case, then at what distance would that take effect?

Or does that mean somting entirely different? Is it illegal to release your "control of your rod to another"? If so, where in the regulations is that stated? When does "control of a rod start or end, is it when the line enters the water, or is it when you bait the hook, or when? Doe's that mean that you cannot legally teach your child to cast into a stream or lake (i.e. make the cast for them), because you were in control of the rod when it was cast, or does that mean that you are fishing with 2 rods? All these things, along with many other issues should be CLEARLY spelled out in the fishing regulations. If we can think issues out like the ones mention above, we can enjoy our sport even more. Your posting will help others understand that we DO HAVE many gray and ambiguious laws that need clarifcation in the new regulation plamplet.

Remenber, if we don't like these gray and ambiguious laws, we need to change them, and now is the time to do it!


Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Cowlitzfisherman I agree it sounds like we are in the minority on this one but I believe we are on the right side. For example some of what was said ,not word for word quotes,"this person only gets out once a year the quide needs to get them fish" or "what if they came from Chicago they should get the experience of catching a fish" this is knowingly skirting the law.Moving on, you mention in one of my examples that the regs don't legally support anything about a fish being caught when it's hooked ,but it does, they state in the regs many times that you must quit fishing when your legal limit is retained.I agree we must think for ourselves but I also believe we would be taking alot of that away when we have the Goverment spell everything out for us in black and white.

Cowlitzfisherman, I believe that you are trying to nail down legal interpretations where the regs have been deliberately kept vague for our benefit. If you press for definitive interpretations the authorities will come down on the side of the most restrictive interpretations. For example, most of us fish all rods in the boat 'til the boat limit is reached. Even the gamies do it. My suggestion is to leave sleeping dogs lie and enjoy the foggy regs. They benefit you.

Just wait until you are hunting elk on New Years Day outside of Porter (western WA) with an eastern washington modern rifle tag but you are using a muzzleloader on private property and your buddies elk dies in the river after running 50 yards. You had better have a firm grasp of the regulations or you could end up walking home, without your gear.

I had to explain to two deputies that I had a special permit, showed it to 'em. That the permit allowed ANY TAG to be used in that area, showed 'em the regs. Explained the firearms restriction area that made me use a muzzleloader, showed 'em that too. Showed them my AHE card. Finally I showed them the written permission that I had for the three private farms that I had hunted on that day.

The only thing that they did know was the rules about the high water mark because the landowner by the Porter Creek bridge called us in for supposedly trespassing and killing the elk on their property. We were able to show them the blood trail going into the river from the property where we had permission and our footprints along the bank where we had tied a rope to the floating elk and walked it down to the boat launch.

Now if I was to trust in the knowledge of others to avoid tickets, I might have walked away with a stack of tickets. The deputies were not hunters, and had little knowledge of the game laws, but my knowledge of them, along with the copy of the regs helped to educate these gentlemen. The were quite respectful, and let the complaintant know that they had no standing on the trespassing complaint.

Now then, I am sure that there are other stories related to fishing out there, but grey (gray) rules are not always good. I personally would like to know so that I don't step on my d**k and get a ticket because of some misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the rules.

That is exactly what we wish to accomplish. Where's the line. I would personally prefer some very general rules with few limitations (no snaggin' or dynamite, that's not all, but basically two guys at two fish per = 4 fish, who cares who hooked them) so that all could fish without fear of getting ticketed. The nice thing about that would be that those of us who want to fish to a higher standard could, and some of the folks who are new to fishing could get an opportunity to get hooked on the sport without getting tickets carved.

Have a nice evening,

Andy

i agree with thumper on this one we should leave well enough alone.we have enough rules and regulations to deal with.cowlitz man i believe you used to be a guide how did you handle the rod situation? fish on! scott

scotty98541.

I must confess, I hooked many a fish and handed them off to my clients when I was guiding. But in the back of my mind, I always knew that someday I would be citied for doing it. Gray areas SUCK!! If in fact this is truly against the current regulations, maybe this will start the action to correct it. I guess that will depend on how fishermen really feel about this issue. I for one wouldn't want to be the one who attempts to tell the judge that he should leave this dog to sleep!

Make no mistake about it WDFW didn't deliberately kept this issue vague for our benefit. They are not that smart! I have worked with them on game laws in the past. We can't just pretend that it will just go away. If it is wrong, then lets fix it or live with it! Remember, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Maybe some guys may want to wait until some p***** off fishermen pulls out his video camera and films you hooking 3 or 4 fish for your clients. And guess what happens after he gets off his ceil phone and you pull your boat up to the ramp and the game warden is sitting there writing out citations for not only you, but also for your clients.
It's only a matter of time before this will happen. Do you really want to be the one that this happens too? Remember, if the act is illegal and they accept your rod, you have just made them part of the violation.

No, this dog isn't sleeping, he laying there with his eyes wide open and is ready to bite off your leg!


Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook?????

While not a fishing reg guideline, I've noticed many park wardens and their ilk interpret "dawn to dusk" in such a manner as to mean "whenever I say." This almost stung me once on a local lake which is behind a mountain that obscures the sunset...it gets "dark" there 45 minutes before the other side of the island! On this note, I've got to commend the fishing regs for their clarity in regards to "one hour before official sunrise to one hour past official sunset."

fishkisser99

Good point! There is also an "official" sunset and sunraise time that can also be used. Duck hunters live by that time! In your case, I am quite sure that you would win that one hands down in court. If you started shooting before the "official time", you take the chance of getting citied. Some of us may interpret that law wrong, but if we went by your watch, you would be legal, shade or no shade. Your point definitely makes one think! Thanks for the reply.

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????


[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]