Sounds to me like Dan S. is using presentation as a way to justify flossing.If a 4 ft. leader is good for a bankie,why isn't it good for a boatie.Just because you use a 6ft. leader with a small gob of eggs on it and your fishing from a boat doesn't mean your not doing exactly as your criticizing other people.Whats worse?A flosser,or a flosser condemning somebody else for flossing.At least ZoZo is honest about how and why he does something.To me thats a lot more in the way of having morals and integrity than using an excuse to justify doing the same thing.Trying to make it look o.k.
Little ZoZo,Some people may not agree with your tactics.But they dam sure can't question your honesty.2Thumbs up for that. It seems like we could use a little more around here.

It seems like a few guys that post on this Board can take the heat better then others can. Like Zo Zo, I respect him because he voices his "honest opinion" on this board. Yea, his opinion may not be the same as yours or mind all the time, but so what! I can't believe that so many guys get so bent out of shape just because Zo Zo admits that he likes to line hook fish. The only time that "lining" really works anyway is when fish are "stacked up" in a hole. And that usually only occurs when you got lots of "hatchery fish" returning to one spot. How many times have I heard on this BB that hatchery fish are there for harvest?

Have any of you ever seen that many "wild fish" stack up in a hole so that you could "line hook" them… not likely! This "moral" thing is a pretty funny one too. You can always tell when the debate is starting to go bad for someone, because they start using the old "moral" word. It's a tactic that the opposing views always use when they can't come up with anything else to nail you with. What about our forefather? Were they all immoral too because they caught fish with spears, rocks, etc.? Just like zo zo, I have brought up some pretty hot threads to talk about, e.g. harvest of wild fish & handing off fish. Will the same guys accuse me of not having any morals?

Meat fishermen sometimes think a little different then other fisherman do but that doesn't make them immoral. We all talk about how unethical or immoral it is to kill wild fish or line hook a fish, but yet its OK for many of the same people to cheat on their taxes or spouse or drink and drive. Does the word "hypocrite" sound familiar? "I hope that this BB can agree that it's OK to disagree and still not be called immoral for doing so. If the games laws don't say it's illegal, than what's the big issue? If you don't like the laws then change them!


Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Well Cowfish,its like Dan S. says.Its all in the presentation.Its what seems to matter whether your talking fishing, morals,attitude,or anything else in life.If you make the right presentation enough times, the fish,or the people you are making the presentation to will most likely take the bait sooner or later.

Morality really has nothing to do with it. Legality does. If you keep a flossed fish, you're breaking the law. Do I think ZoZo is immoral, no. Not any more immoral than I am for speeding. However, we're both taking a risk, because it's illegal.

Huntnfish.....there IS a difference between being on the bank, and being in a boat. Are you gonna boondog from the beach? How? You gonna cast that 6 foot leader and then run down the bank a half mile so your bait drifts lazily along? In a boat, the 6 foot leader makes gives you the proper presentation.....from the bank, it doesn't do anything a 3 or 4 foot leader wouldn't do. Telling me I'm justifying flossing just shows you don't know much about boondogging or sidedrifting. I use 6 foot leaders sidedrifting and I've yet to floss one. Try sidedrifting with a 3 foot leader and see how many you catch............

Cowlitzfisherman, This doesn't pertane to you for I respect you and your opinions. But this unethical way of snagging has got my feathers ruff up. I just can't condone this way of snagging and do nothing. Has it come to this method of snagging to catch fish. I will give credit to ZoZo for telling us this,
at the same time I think it wasn't the smartest thing to do. Apperantly he has no pride in the way he fishes. Don't know how old he is but as soon as a lot of you learn that the numbers are not important than and only than will they start to enjoy the sport we love. Duck In The Fog

Finally, I get what all these losers at Blue Crick were doing last winter. I inquired about this practice with the the fellow I was touching elbows with at the end of the line and couldn't seem to get a straight answer about why everyone was using 8' leaders. The funny thing was is that I ended up foul hooking a big Steely on my 30" 8 lb leader and had a blast until it snapped off down stream and I found a large scale left on my hook. I would have certainly let the fish go if I would have landed it because #1 the law requires it and #2 how could a self- respecting angler take pride in keepin a snagged/flossed/netted/dynamited etc. fish? This is supposed to be sport right? Keep it real..

Dammit, You Guys! If a fish is hooked in the mouth, it's legal, simple as that. I challange anybody to prove me wrong. Show me where it says that I can't keep a fish that is hooked in the mouth. Lining is not snagging. If a fish is hooked in the mouth, you can keep it. Final! If you look at 99% of the fish caught boondogging on the Cowlitz, the hook is in the fishes mouth, but it has penetrated in from the outside. Is it wrong to fish like that? I don't know, why don't we ask some of the guides who fish the Cowlitz? Duckinthefog: Yes, I am a "Meat Fisherman". If legal to do so, I keep the fish I catch and I take them home and eat them. Yes, I love to line fish.... I lined one this morning as a matter of fact. It was a chrome bright chinook hen about 18lbs and chocked full of eggs. I kept the fish because it was hooked in the mouth.... Right in the bottom jaw. I will eat the fish and use the eggs for Steelhead this winter. I caught that fish in front of about 30 guys today. There was no shame in it. None at all. It was a legally caught fish. I don't care that the fish didn't "bite" my junk. I put a hook in that fishe's mouth and that is all that matters to me. Am I a bad person? Do I have poor morals? Are you better than me because you refuse to engage in such "Brutal" tactics? Maybe, but I've got a freezer load of fish and only four punches left on my Steelhead card, so in my book what you have to say doesn't really seem to matter that much. If you disagree with my tactics, then that's fine. It's OK to disagree with me. But if you want to attack my Moral Character, if you want to question my integrety and my honesty over something as stupid as this, then we have a problem. I'll be down on the Skokomish this Wednesday at around 8:00AM. I'll be the one with the red tiger striped fishing vest. Come on down and say "HI", then maybe we can discuss what a loser I really am.

ZoZo,

I'm not looking down my nose at you, but make NO mistake. It IS illegal. The WDFW Regs CLEARLY state that a fish must "voluntarily" take your offering. See page 13, under the definition of 'Snagging'. That is black and white. Flossing is you voluntarily getting it in the fish's mouth. I'm not gonna tell you you're immoral or anything, but you really should admit that flossing is illegal. Of course, so is speeding....and I'll most likely be doing that all the way home!

Dan, You may well have a point. However, I am just about 100% positive that nobody....NOBODY, will ever be able to convict me in a court of law. Think what you want to of me and my tactics, that's fine. I'm not going to appologize for lining fish. If I thought I was doing something wrong or immoral, then I wouldn't have ever posted it in the first place. A lot of you guys out there are lining the fish you catch. Do I try to line fish all of the time? No. However, when the occasion calls for it, I'll put on a ten foot leader with a 4mm red bead above a 3/0 hook and a lining I will go. Sorry guys, but I really don't see the wrong in it. Also, being a "Meat Fisherman" like I am, it's not like I am down at the river "Traumatizing" one fish after another. I take my limit and I get the Hell out, so Duckinthefog's little crack about tramatizing fish really doesn't amount to a pile of $hit. Yeah, when I fish, I go to harvest. I only keep Hatchery fish, and I don't hang out at the river all day long ripping on sides. Hell, some of you touchy feely, C&R Fanatics are probably doing more to destroy the resource than I ever could. You come down to the river and you sore-mouth the $hit out of God knows how many fish, you play them out on light tackle until they are half dead. BTW, this causes lactic acid to build up in the fishe's blood stream, and it could be fatal to the fish. Then, you let the fish go so you can go do it all over again. Oh, let's not forget the way some guys gill the fish for the photo op. The worst part is, YOU ARE DOING IT TO NATIVE FISH!!!!!! Hell, I just cme down to the river, get my two fish, and leave.... Hatchery fish, no less. So, who's more immoral? The liner who kills two hatchery fish, or the hard core c&r Fanatic with the noodle rod and the six lb. test line, sore mouthing and subsequently killing one Native Fish after another?

I will agree that Zozo has his opinions based on a liberal interpretation of the rules and he surely won't be invited to go fishing with me, but to compare his technique to fishing Alaska reds is just not accurate...
Reds are just not biters...they feed on krill in the oceans and there is NO presentation that will attract a strike in the Alaska rivers. Lining those fish is the only way to harvest without a net.
These are the facts.
I had some real moral reservations about this until the DFW in Anchorage enlightened me with the facts.

Rip-Lipper

Blue Creek as been this way for probably more years than you are old! With that being said, you must understand how that particular fishery has been managed by the WDFW. Blue Creek is the only entrance to the Cowlitz Tout Hatchery that the fish have. Now what does that tell you?

90% of all the steelhead that have been raised there returns there, if not caught. There is a fish barrier in Blue Cr. to stop all fish from going any further. It is located right above the Blue Creek Trout Hatchery fish ladder.

Some people complain that people are harvesting too many fish at the mouth of Blue Cr. by snagging or "lining" them. That may very well be true, but think about it from there point of view, it might give you a total different prophetic, if you know what is really going on there.

For years, the WDFW Project Biologist staff has been trying to open up that tiny little creek up to harvest (what kind of harvest could you have?). If you ever walked it, you would know just how ridiculous that would be. Talk about a SNAG fishery!

Things are changing, but are they for the better, or are they for the worse? The point is, WDFW wants those fish to be harvested, and if they can make a few bucks on giving out fines while doing so, that's also great and OK with them too! One thing you can count on for the very near future, the games at Blue Creek will continue! Education and this BB will may change a lot of things in the future.

Thanks Bob for letting us air this on your dime!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Hey ZoZo,

Don't worry.....I won't hold any of this against you. I'll keep my eye out for you on the Skok, and say "Hi" if I see you.

Don't let yourself get ruffled, differences of opinion aren't worth getting too worked up over. It'd be a boring world if I never had anyone to argue with!

Small bead and a 3/0 hook... thats just wrong.... lol good god

ZO ZO

With those balls of steel of yours, I would stay away fro magnets!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

GFC - so am I understanding you correctly that if a fish is hard or tough to get a strike from in fresh water, its ok to floss/line/snag. I've caught Sockeye while nymphing with a strike indicator up there so I know they bite, just not very well. Don't get me wrong either, I've caught hundreds using the 'traditional' method. Just a little curious why its ok to line a fish when they're lockjaws, legalities aside since this really is a moral discussion and laws are open for some grey areas.

Don't feel bad Dan, I just got done doing a little speedin' myself. Hope no one saw that will think less of me.

Dan S. sorry,I probably shouldn't have made my remarks so personal. No I don't know much about boondogging,Only done it a couple times.I'm just a poor ole bank maggot.
I don't understand why you need a 6 foot leader to make a lazy natural drift out of a boat.But if your fishing the exact same water from the bank,a 3-4 foot leader will work.Why would'nt that same 6 foot leader also give you a better presentation.As long as your in a spot where you can still cast it.
Little zozo made some good points though.About cnr,light lines etc.Isn't repeatedly catching fish and releasing them about the same as molesting or harrassing fish.Maybe not legally but morally,I would think so.
I don't fish for steelhead a whole lot.But I know people that do.When they are out boondogging they go for the long leader for exactly the same reason zozo does.Sure you might get more biters because of a better presentation.But they also line their share of fish.I probably cought 2-3 fish boondogging.At least one of those was not a biter.So I know it happens.I have a hard time believing you have never lined one while doing this.Maybe you just never really paid that much attention to it.
When it comes to hatchery fish,(salmon)Wouldn't you rather see them harvested and put to good use.Rather than end up as dog food or something of the sort.Sure a few dead ones in the river and on the bank are good nutrients,but From what I saw last year there were plenty for that.I say hookem,landem, eatem.

Thank you, Dan. I'm really not the horrible B@stard some of these guys are making me out to be. Huntnfish: I couldn't agree more. Cowlitzfisherman: No balls of steel here. Just an honest guy who refuses to lie to others, or to himself. A lot of guys who post on this board talk a good line, but when push comes to shove, a good percentage of these people will be down on the river bank, ripping and tearing with the best of them...... It's a fine notion to say that the reason we fish is so that we can commune with nature and find peace within ourselves. I have no idea just how many times I've heard hunting and fishing compared to religion. Guys talking about the majestic Steelhead and their undying love of the fish they pursue. I'm much more practical than that. I hunt and fish because I am a predator and I derive enjoyment from the act of killing and eating the fish I catch and the animals I kill.

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: LittleZoZo ]

ZoZo, I may be straying on topics but you mentioned h0w many punches you have. So what.Do you really think it matters to any of us? That's alot of fish!!!! Nothing better than freezer burnt fish. You forgot to tell us when it's time to start throwing them away. By the way I've been steelheading and salmon fishing for over 50 yrs. and never lined a fish that I know of. This is not a personal attack, I just don't condone linning fish. Forget the numbers and enjoy the resource. The Duck

If the state was concerned about flossing they would restrict leader length.

Jerry Garcia

You Got it right!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook?????