I heard a lot about morals and ethics this past week on this BB, and have to admit, I am a little puzzled. Apparently someone out there has developed a secret set of morals and ethics about Fishing Rules that we are all suppose to know about when we are out fishing. I would like to see what these new Fishing moral or ethical rules are, wouldn't you? It would also be helpful for everyone to "understand" the reasoning behind each one of these proclaimed unpublished rules.

Recently, I have read many postings on this BB saying that it "not moral or ethical" to line a fish or it's "morally or ethically wrong" to kill or harvest wild fish. The list goes on an on, but for once; wouldn't it be interesting to here and understand the logic behind their reasoning?

Just think about it, you could post a reply back to another posting, and actually say something e.g., "that's against moral or ethic rule #3 or #7". At lease that way the person being accused would know what moral or ethical rule he has been accused of breaking.

If they are going to be our judge, then they can tell us what rule we have broken! So here's the question. What secret "moral" or "ethic" rule should become part of our "fishing code of ethics", and what is your reasoning for or against it?

Who will be first?


Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????


[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]

Me first! If what your doing makes you wonder if it's right or wrong then there's a very high chance it's wrong.CF I'm looking forward to seeing some of the responces given as you know some people that said flossing is wrong are some of the same people who had no problem handing off thier rod or fishing until the boat was limited which is also illegal. Why? Could it be" Do as I say not as I do".

I thought that for 2001, limiting the boat was OK, as per WDFW p. 16, last paragraph under "Harvest Rules."

Regards.

Mike
Woodinville

I Think it only applies in areas that require a saltwater license.

Yup, you're right. I guess that since I am 100% salt, I keyed on the saltwater part of that paragraph.

Personally I've practiced C&R all year. And thanks to these efforts the spawning run of barnacle-covered rocks will be stronger than ever.

If I could insert some rules into the books for 2002 I would do the following:

• 12" minimum length on ALL trout
• bank fishing leaders no longer than 36"
• no catch/size limit on Columbia and Willamette river bass
• triple snagging fines

Plus, I would look into the potential effect of using too light of fishing tackle on the mortality rates of wild fish. Sure, we all laugh at the bass anglers and their 30lb test for 6lb fish but what we need to remember is that by bringing them in quickly they are reducing the stress on the fish. After a long battle the fish might be able to swim away under its own power after some recovery time but who's to say if the fish doesn't belly up downstream?

Gee I wonder why boat limits are legal in salt water and not in fresh??? Wouldn't have anything to do with the big money charter boats would it???

The Million dollar question. It's not legal in the freshwater which also means it's not ethical as well. Does that mean that just because it's legal in salt is it still ethical???

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: Pickled Herring ]

Seth:

Money has moved non-ethical issues into legislation for years. Nothing new.

So True...

Pickled Herring

Excellent point!

It doesn't sound too ethical to me! My reasoning being; if one side can do it legally, then the other side should also be allowed to do it legally. Those fish belong to all of us and the law should apply equally the same for both sides! Why shouldn't freshwater boat limits be the same as saltwater boats? Answer…simple…paid lobbyists got their way!!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

You're mixing two distinct ethical questions:

1. Is it ethical to limit the entire boat?
2. Is it ethical to break the law?

If you consider these separately, there is no dilemma.

Regards.

Mike
Woodinville

Cowlitz, I could just as easily claim that the corrupt Freshwater Charter Coalition subverted the WDFW to make barbed hooks illegal on saltwater whilst targeting salmon, to make sure the fish would escape, and then be caught by the freshwater charters.

Regards.

Mike
Woodinville

Ethics are a touchy issue. Bottom Line: Be honest with yourself as well as with others. Be honest in all of your actions and statements. Don't get up on the Board talkiing about releasing all wild fish and then when you catch a wild fish a couple of weeks later, you bonk it. Don't say one thing and then do another. A lot of guys on this Board question my ethics. They are of the opinion that since I engage in a practice that they disagree with, that I am a bad person. That's fine, I don't need anyone's approval. However, at least I am honest. No matter what I am doing, I'm honest about it, and that in itself is the ethical way to behave. If you are honest with yourself, and never do anything that you feel is wrong, then what everyone else has to say will cease to matter.

The boat limit issue confused me a bit, because I thought that salmon were listed as game fish. Well, knock me over with a feather, because it looks like I was taking my other lines out of the water when there wasn't a need to do so. Salmon are classified as a food fish! Whodathunkit? Have they always been a food fish? I read the hunting regs every year, but I just always went with common sense and a skim of the fishing regs. I guess I'll have to change that practice.

The nice thing is that I was still fishing legally, and it turns out that I don't mind pulling the extra rods out of the water when we are down to a fewer fish than fishermen for the boat limit.

As long as it is legal, I don't hold anything against the others on how they fish. If you want to hold yourself to a higher standard, then go ahead.

My only request is that you don't look down your nose at others because they choose to fish legally, but at a lower standard than yours. I would prefer that you teach them the benefits of this higher standard. An example of this would be to release all wild fish.

Beginning September 1st, I can start keeping wild silvers in Sekiu. I will do my best to target the hatchery fish, but I can tell you right now that there will be some wild fish bonked on my boat. I won't have a problem if one of my guests really wants to keep an 18lb hooknose, but I will encourage them to only take one wild fish a trip. I may even take a wild fish as well, but I will probably just stick to the hatchery fish.

Andy

These different points of view are great! But what's even greater is the explanation that you are giving that supports your point of view. No one else hast to like or accept them, but we all now can understand the reasoning behind your moral or ethical views!

It's good to be an American!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I've been having a real (moral) dilemma this year while fishing out near Sekiu. We've had days where we caught & released 50 unclipped fish to keep 10 clipped coho.

I know that there is a certain mortality rate from this catch & release, and I purposely have fished almost exclusively single small siwash hooks, mostly spoons, to lessen the mortality rate.

But I've been considering the options... either I don't fish there at all, or I fish this way. I've been asking myself, if WDFW changed the rules next year and made it so you could keep just the first two fish you caught, would I like that? Because I do enjoy fishing a lot, and would probably like to fish most of the day, rather than be done first thing in the morning. But I also do enjoy eating fish, too.

So I'm still not sure what I'm going to do come September 1st, am I going to keep the first fish we catch, until our limits are full, or am I going to catch & release until I have the fish I want?

I think that in cases where WDFW is truly concerned about fish in a particular area (saltwater), that area should remain completely closed, or there should be much stricter gear restrictions in those areas... to lessen the C&R mortality impact... like you can only use single hooks 1/0 or smaller... something that won't brain or go through the eye of a smaller fish.

Then again, WDFW is so f***ked up when it comes to making sound scientific decisions, that I just don't trust their decisions. Example, how can they justify having openings in Area 5 and Area 7, but Area 6 has none? Never mind any net fisheries they allow... that just throws all C&R, all "protect the wild fish" theories out the window.

So I guess I'm looking for input, because I don't think many 18lb hooknose's will get released off my boat after September 1st, I think they'd all go in the fish box, wild or otherwise (If they weren't there in healthy numbers, WDFW wouldn't open the season, right?)

-N.

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: StorminN ]

1. I suppose barbless circle hooks would help, although I'm just now getting around to trying them.

2. If you can ID the fish before you try to net it, and get good with one of those "hook-stick" things, you can release it with almost no impact.

3. Use a sturdy line so that you can bring the fish to the boat promptly without breaking the line.

I think that you would cause very low mortality if you did these things. Once you net the fish, or if it's bleeding, I'd guess the mortality goes way up.

As for the WDFW's convoluted regs, I dunno. I can see why they split Area 7 off from the rest, because any salmon that end up in Area 7 are probably Canada-bound, not Puget Sound-bound. I kinda wonder why they are sticking with the wild coho release thing this year, since by all accounts, this year's coho run is very strong.

I personally think the 1 rockfish per day rule is stupid, since it motivates fishers to keep C&R-ing rockfish until they get one big enough for their liking, and rockfish mortality is really high regardless of how gently you treat them. They might as well just shut down rockfish until they are sufficiently recovered.

Regards.

Mike
Woodinville

Norman,

I am right there with you. If anyone was so worried about wild fish, then I say to them, "Put your gear away."

Some folks are so worried about these wilds that they get upset when one is kept. What is the difference between someone catching 30 or more in a year and having two to five die because of hook mortality and some guy who goes up to the penninsula, fishes one of the rivers around Forks once and because of blind luck he catches one monster 30 pound steelhead and takes it home. Both fish still die. They are both removed from the gene pool. The only two differences are that one gets eaten by a family of humans while the other becomes fishfood, and one person killed intentionally while the other did not.

I guess it is all in how you look at it.

Andy

Last cast,
Unfortunately I have to disagree with your theory that if you wonder if its right or wrong,then most likely its wrong.You have to realize we are dealing with laws written by W.D.F.W and as so many people have stated before there is so much amiguity in them,Its dang hard to know if your doing right or wrong even if you have a pamphlet in your hands.One law applies to one person but not another.Or one law might be interpreted in 10 different ways by 10 different people.The heck of it is they may all be involved in the enforcement of these laws.I say do the best you can,and hope like hell your right in your interpretation.Of course there are things that should be obviously immoral,and one of the biggest would be purposely letting our resources go to waste.

HuntnFish,

The same could be said about your last post. One man's wasted resource, is another man's balanced, healthy eco-system. If you look hard enough at any law, you could probably find some loophole that would prevent you from being convicted, if caught breaking it.

In my opinion, it's those who expend alot of energy looking for a way around the laws, instead of trying to abide by the intent, that cross the "ethical border" so to speak.

If you examine the main reasons why people break or "bend" the fish and game laws, it all come down to the basic human characteristic GREED

Finegrain,

1. I don't use circle hooks for salmon, just for halibut. I'm not sure how they'd work for salmon, but I'll have to ask around, if anyone here has used them for salmon, let me know.

2. I have not netted many fish this year, even the ones we've kept. I have two of the "hook-stick" things on my boat, one for each side (they also come in handy for grabbing the downrigger clips). We bring the fish alongside the boat, look for a fin, and then release it with the stick if we need to... we never touch the fish.

I will say, however, that we do lose a lot of fish at the side of the boat, especially coho, seem to thrash and roll and throw the hook. Coho seem to be especially bad at hooking themselves through the mouth and then the eye or such, because they roll so much. I find that if I use flashers, it gets worse, and they roll and get the line wrapped around their head, too.

3. I use pretty sturdy line, either 25lb or 30lb leaders on all my spoons, if the fishing is slow, I'll try flashers and hootchies, on the hootchies I use 60lb test.

The only reason I've heard for the WDFW opening in Area 5 is that Chris Mohr (spelling?) out in Sekiu (Van Riper's?) went to all the North of Falcon meetings and lobbyed hard for an opening... same with Area 7, I forget the name of the person that lobbied, but there are a lot of rich, influential people that live in the San Juans that like to fish.

I agree with you on the 1 rockfish rule, that's just dumb. If they want to leave it as 1 rockfish, it should be the first and only rockfish you catch... there's got to be practically a 100% mortality rate on them when you're fishing deep water.

Andy, I agree with you, too. If someone is that worried about wild fish, they should stop fishing, or fish with super specific gear.

If the state is going to open some areas but require us to release certain fish, then we desperately need a well-thought-out education program to show people how to handle and release these fish. We also need concrete studies on what methods produce the lowest mortality rates.

-N.

Hi Norman,

I used circle hooks last year for the Sockeye fishery in Lake Washington with GREAT success. Once I figured out the heavy leader on the flasher deal, every trip of the downrigger result in a fish, and every fish was hooked in the corner of the mouth.

I did not release any, however, as they are my favorite fish to eat.

Morals, Ethics & Fishing

It's easy for me. Sport fishing is.. well a sport. I feel my selfworth would be lowered by breaking rules. No matter how retarded the rule may be it's just part of the game. I'd rather lose(not catch fish) than cheat.

No flossing for me. Thank you very much.

Now, I'm no saint. I'll even take a toke when offered, for example. I just think if it's part of a sport I should play by the rules, that's all.

So Aqua Man,

Is that your specialized breathing aparatis, or is it just a bong?

MAAAAAANN, another superhero bites the dust!

Andy

Morals and ethics differ all over the world. What one society feels is right and just, another would find revolting and terribly wrong. Wars are fought over such differences everyday. For our purpose we debate over popular and unpopular topics. Everyone taking a position wheather they express it publically or not.
In my opinion, wasting __________ (fill in the blank) is wrong. Except I don't mind wasting time. Which is what i'm doing right now.
Don't be too hard on people with different views, you never know they may be your views someday.

Aquaman,
Isn`t that kinda like a Lays potato chip,nobody can stop at just one?

Hi Andy,

Where did you get the circle hooks you used? I've only ever seen big ones, 6/0 or better. I'd like to try some, I'll be over in Seattle tomorrow, if that's where you got them. What brand/size were you using? Were you using bare hooks, or using the with small hootchies?

Mmmm... don't remind me, those sockeye are really nice tasting fish...

Thanks in advance for the info.
-N.

Norman,

I got the circle hooks at Boater's World last year. They were Daiichi brand hooks. The size that I found were about 3/0, or maybe 2/0. They were just plain hooks, without any leader. I still have three of them, as they were the only ones that I could find, so I am keeping them in the off chance that we get another shot at those sockeye in the near future. They were also STICKY SHARP, and I never had to sharpen one.

Andy

Keeping dark hens just for the eggs.

I don't like intentional snagging.

However, what seems more unethical and maybe immoral is the practice of keeping dark and obviously inedible hens(mostly wild fall chinook) just for the eggs.

I've heard lots of justifications-"Oh it'll smoke up OK", or "It'll make good crab bait", or "Well she's dark outside, but the meat will be good". My guess is usually the eggs get cured up and the fish is trash. I'd much rather see someone keep an accidentally snagged fish that is bright and in good shape than keep a dark and unusable hen caught "legally" just for the eggs.

You can get Owner circle hooks at Ted's. If you increase your line rating to land fish faster[less stress] you may need to fish with a broomstick [a G. L. Broomis], not much fun.

Hntnfsh I understand what your saying but here's some clarification first,WDFW does not make the laws the politicians do, WDFW agents enforce the laws and the court system interprets them.Myself I have no problem at all understanding the fishing regulations you just have to spend the time and energy to read them inside and out, after all it's your personal responsibility to do just that.

Last Cast,I was just being a bit too vague about the law stuff.
What I'm getting at is that not all WDFW people enforce the laws in the same way,and not all courts interpret them in the same way.
Sure a lot of laws are pretty black and white.But there are plenty of them that are kinda grey also.We have discussed grey areas of the law on this b.b. before.
IF you read your pamphlet and know it inside and out then your doing way better than the average Joe.Which is definitely a credit to you.Especially if you interpret them the same as the people that count.As the judge would say,"ignorance is no excuse" The other part of the equation is that there are a lot of game laws that are not in those pamphlets.Most people either won't or don't know how to access them.
Sure we have heard that this is the law or that is the law. But a lot of the times its an interpretation by somebody that probably ran afoul of the law and its how a certain law was interpreted when they had their day in court.OR maybe even just one of those things that has been passed around for years with nobody really knowing if its actually the law or just that somebody said it was.
I said all that and really all I was trying to say is that just because you feel like your doing the right thing doesn't necessarily mean you are.It just depends on how several different people interpret something.
Of course not in every case,but its very easy to feel morally right.And that you are within the law.When in somebody elses eyes that aint so.
As somebody said previousley Every body looks at things differently,and what might be right and moral for one person,might not be for another.
I think that its possible to break the law either knowingly or unknowingly and still have good reason to feel right morally.
I hope all this makes sense.I thought it did when I was writing it.But its been a long day and I'll read it again later and hope it still does.