Silly rabbit! Most laws are based at least in part by what the communities moral standards are at the time. For example, snagging is illegal in Oregon and Washington specifically because it is deemed immoral and unsporting.

Zozo if you are lining fish then you might as well be using a 10/0 treble hook with lead wrapped around the shank (lower elwha indian style ). The fish doesn't decide to go and take your lure. Lining is just a form of snagging.

~ Dr Pepper

Dr Pepper-

Don't waste your breath. He'll hit you with the hypothetical crap about the fish missing the bite yet you still hit him in the mouth anyway.

It's not worth the effort. Just do a search on his name in the forums and you will see what you are working with. There are better uses for O2 than this.

Again dave Jackson, It's allright to disagree with me on just about anything you want. It is of small issue to me exactly what your viewpoints are. However, do not use the "H" word when addressing me.... Ever..... You may not agree with my tactics when it comes to fishing, but you are in no position whatsoever to question my honesty! Every post I've ever made on this BB has been nothing but honest. Therefore, I am not a hypocrite. Dont try to use the legality issue of the whole lining vs snagging thing either, because I have come out on several occasions and said that the legality of the issue at hand does not concern me. You can try to demonize me and others who think like me (I know I'm not the only one on this BB who lines fish) all you want. Call me unsporting, call me a bararian, call me a goober if you want. Go ahead and attack the issue anyway you want.... It's OK. But, if you ever question my honesty or forthrightness again, we will have a serious problem. I'm the only one here who has the right to throw out those kinds of accusations.

KSR nice reply and you've got "sand" to post it.
But you really danced away from the content of my post which directly discussed your major points in your previous post? Would really help to clarify things if you could do that? I'm not talking about the flossin stuff...just the stuff that sounded like you wanted to find justification keeping obviously snagged fish.

Gooose

With regards to the long leaders, a friend of a friend, on a river that shall not be named, has figured out an approach for silvers that uses a very long leader (8 ft). He has been doing very well. I feel fairly sure that the technique is not flossing the fish, because the bait is almost always swallowed. Deeply.

So at least in this one case, there is an angler who is using a long leader very effectively, appropriately, and legally. Can't speak for the Blue Creek crowd, I never fish there.

i wasnt looking for justification at all, its just that i have never encountered snagging ever in the saltwater or lakes i have fished, it was never an issue and i had no concept of it. i started hearing about it this summer when i hit the river for the first time...seems like river fishermen can be very anal retentive about how you fish and what is right or wrong in their eyes...thats one thing ive learned from reading a lot of the posts on this board

Slow down there, LittleZoZo, and read my post again. I used the word hypothetical , not hypocritical . Big different there.

Cmon ZoZo...in through the nose, out through the mouth...in through the nose, out through the mouth. You mess that up and you've got snot on your lip.

No, I cannot take that one. Didn't bonk it at all. It was more of a C&R (correct and reflect). Trust me, you'll know when I toss one in the burlap by the blood trail.

Uhhhhh, He hehehehehe..... Uh ok Sorry about that Dave. My mistake. God I feel stupid

O.K. How about this one. Your fishing a 45 foot hole on a river that's full of silvers and chinook, you've beat the hell out of them with bait, spinners, plugs and you decide to explore a little. You put on a 2 oz. Nordic with a single siwash. You start jigging, with a soft jigging action (not the over the head, hit your @ss swing like snaggers) and you hook a fish in the mouth. So you try again and you hook the next one in the tail, well who know's if that fish was swiping at it or you just accidently snagged it. But, personally I grab the pliers and release it unharmed...

Most ignorant people that are watching will assume your snagging. They'll look at you funny, say wierd things but I think it's a matter of intent.. There's a guy on the lewis that just hates james and I and he says for the #'s of fish we catch we have to be snagging them. So, one day when we decided to do the nordic thing he came down with his video camera and started taping, saying he was going to send it to the game department. I think he's got the right idea but he should have gone upriver a quarter mile where the banks were lined with people (dropping the tip to the water and ripping over there head consistently, then high-fiving when they'd land a fish backwards). If you intend to snag then you should be ridiculed until the end. But if you intend to present an offering that fish will actually bite, and bite consistently then leave it alone.

As for flossing goes, what fun is that, be patient and get them to bite. Explore a little.
Keith

While you guys are congratulating yourselves for ridiculing another new poster, I'd like to offer a scenario where a hook outside the mouth but in the jaw is possible.

Before I started toothpicking my spinning drift bobber to the line to hold it in place, the little whirly gig would float up the line and the steelhead would take it. You set the hook and the hook is outside the mouth. Fish took the "bait" but is hooked outside the mouth. Fair hook? Absolutely. Aleviated by pinning your birdy drifter to the hook, but still a valid method for taking steelhead in its day.

I've also seen the video from Charlie White where the salmon crashes through the bait tail slapping the baitfish to stun it, then turns around and picks up the limpers. If he tailslaps a hook and gets buttoned, it is still a snag and the fish goes back, even though he intended to hurt it and then eat it. He never got to the eatin part.

Flame away.

Pitch:

ZoZo has over 260 posts. He's not a new poster, and he certainly was not ridiculed. He was merely instructed to read the post again, and he had mistaken one word for another. I think that your tidy whitey's have migrated North again and are in danger of choking off your thought process.

Now, let's say that I'm a very popular ex-football player who has supplemented my income through bit parts in Leslie Nielsen movies and rental car commercials. Hypothetically , lets say that my cheating wife has moved out of the house and when I stop by her place to talk to her about some things I see that she's chilling with some waiter from the local diner. And let's say hypothetically again that I was digging under my fingernails with my 12" Bowie knife on the way over and neglect to put the knife away.

Now, it's dark outside and as she comes forward to greet me she forgets about the steps and falls forward onto the knife...eight times. Hearing the commotion her assho...er, guest comes outside and does the same thing...sixteen times. Since it wasn't my intent to kill them I should be cleared of all charges and allowed to play 36 holes a day, right?

You see my dear Pitch Pocket, it all comes down to INTENT. The only person who can 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, determine your intent in your actions is YOU. The rest of us (as well as the game officers) have to make a judgement call. Sometimes we're right, sometimes we're wrong.

If you are intending to floss the fish, then congratulations! You have discovered a way to turn a long, relaxing day of fishing into a couple quick swipes and out. Hopefully these patterns haven't carried over to other recreational activities that you and another might partake in.

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Dave Jackson ]

Hey, Hey, Hey, The whole Hypocritical/Hypothetical thing was my fault. I failed to completely read what Dave Jackson was saying before I jumped all over him and got all offended..... He pointed out my mistake and as a result, I came away looking like an idiot. It wasn't his fault. As for snagging, lining, flossing, etc is concerned....... You guys have read enough of my posts to know the way I feel about the subject. Obviously, I am the minority when it comes to weather or not it's OK to floss fish. I should've just stayed out of this arguement right from the get go. Yeah, I line em. Yes, I know most of you guys dont like it. We have a difference of opinions and that's that. End of story. I certainly dont see the need for it to turn into some kind of a pissing match between the other members. Pitch Pocket: I dont know who you are, but Dave Jackson wasn't ridiculing me, he was pointing out a gross oversight on my part. Dave Jackson: Dont worry about it. I'm sorry I went off before I knew all the facts.

Whoa there nelly, maybe a few too many pop's on a Friday night. I wasn't talking about ZoZo, you guys were putting a notch in your belt for the disection of KSR. Nice analogy DJ, do we need a psychoanalyst to check on you?

Wait a minute, I get it, it's an OJ reference. Very clever. Hold the psychoanalyst.

I agree with the intent thing 100%. However, if you're out to snag fish, you aren't actually fishing, you're snagging. You want meat on the table to feed your starving kids, or you aren't successful with the "true sportsman's" method of putting fish in your freezer and resort to any method. Although distasteful, illegal and immoral, I've seen worse.

If I put a birdie drifter on my line and a tuft of yarn on my hook hoping to legally hook a fish and he grabs the drifter spinning up the line instead of the yarn, am I lining? No, I don't think so. Did I legally catch a fish? Intent wise, yes. By the letter of the law? Maybe not according to some interpretations. But then, I roll a fat one and thumb my nose at the law, I run a stop light endangering god knows who and myself.

Where do you draw the line? Right where it hits you in the gut, that's where. If smoking dope is it, then call 911 when you see it. When running stoplights makes you see red. Make the call. If it is snagging fish, then bust em. It's a fine line between sticking your nose into some redneck with a gun's business and living your life. Am I my brothers keeper? You pick your battles. You can't fight them all.

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Pitch Pocket ]

I saw so many posts here, I thought I must have missed something. After reading some I realize I didnt miss anything. Incredibly tiresome thread guys!

I can see it now!!!!...the latest episode of MTV's Celebrity Deathmatch.
The Snagger vs. The Liner

Watch as DJ tries to take LZ out with his treble hooks and sparkplugs and and LZ tries to lasso DJ with his 10 ft leader and bore him death with hypocritical rhetoric!!



I must honestly say this is a thread I thought I would never see-the liner calling the snagger a poacher.

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: RPetzold ]

HA HA HA You're a funny one Sparky.... However, I'd like to go on record as saying that I never called, nor did I imply that Dave Jackson was a poacher or a snagger. Makes no difference to me at all what he does. And Far be it for me to sit here and try to judge someone who keeps a snagged fish or two

Who said I use trebles? When I fish I'm either using jigs, drifting eggs, or drifting corkies and yarn on a 1/0 Siwash (yes, it catches fish legally).

Don't label someone unless you know what you are talking about.