so then it would all come down to intent, that makes a lot of sense out of it, thanks

no im not trying to bait anyone at all, i just made a legitimate post to discuss this, thats all...i am just looking for facts and opinions, and some people just dont want to hear it. maybe im not being politically correct pointing out fact but i see no reason to water it down, so flame away if you must

Ouch ... please let me go, I am spawning. I am getting a slight feeling that I was snagged into this discussion.

Who gives a [Bleeeeep!]?! Look, if it's hooked in the mouth, it's fair..... Simple as that! There is no room for an arguement on this matter. If you hook a fish and its in the mouth but the hook is penetrating from the outside, it's still fair! If you have a problem with that logic, then don't keep the fish! There is no proof whatsoever that a fish that is hooked in the mouth with the hook penetrating in from the outside did not intentionally bite whatever it is that you're trowing at it. If the whole in from the outside thing really is snagging, then explain how about 75% of the steel head I see caught Boondogging on the Cowlitz are hooked in this manner? Is that snagging? Are ALL of those guides breraking the law? Or does this rule only apply when your in some kind of a combat fishery and everyone else is outfishing you? "Oh, they're lining those fish. Real fishermen don't fish like that". Listen dude, In my opinion it's not snagging, I do it all the time and I'm really good at it..... If its in the mouth, its in the mouth.... Period!

The intent of that last line under "selective gear" rules is only meant to encourage that fish hooked in locations that tend to cause high mortalities be taken rather than released. Gill plates are not gills....never seen a fish hooked in the gills except thru inside of the mouth. Only way to hook a fish in the tongue is well let me look in the old biology book...will wonders never cease...through the inside of the mouth. Now I've seen a few fish hooked in the eye from outside the mouth....you almost always see this on smaller fish with single siwash hooks where the hook is inside the fishes mouth but the point exits from the inside thru the eye. A gamie is going to write you a big ticket of $500 if he catches you keeping any fish hooked in the gill plates or in the eye if that hook is outside the mouth...period. Gosh if you doubt this I bet we can schedule for you to try this in front of one. Sheesh do we even have to quibble over hooked in the tongue...really hope everyone knows where the tongues located? Sorry you won't get a ticket for that one. Please read the snagging rules? As for the outside but real near the gumline hookup well do what you please but realize you're likely to get the big ticket also...just less likely....probably depend on the officer and mood.
I'm staying out of the flosser debate....as there's too much gray area in what's being talked about.

Gooose

In my expierence it is pretty easy to tell whether a fish is snagged of not. Snagging a fish in the head is just as bad as snagging one in the tail. Bottom line is if the fish doesn't bite your bait then it is snagged. I've seen many fish hooked at the bottom of the jaw, with the hook clearly outside the fishes mouth. How can you say that is was biting? Was it biting on the line? As far as I'm concerned, lining a fish is just another way of snagging!

Well how about this instance that happened to james about 2 years back. While driftfishing for steelhead james gets a bite sets to hook and lands the steelhead. When it took the bait it went through the mouth, through the gills and then had it snagged in the side. So basically when it tried to swallow the bait it got filtered right out of it's gills.

Snagged or not is the question, keeper or not a keeper??
Keith

Let the beatings continue.

[ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: Dave Jackson ]

ROFLAMO! Good one Jackson. I doubt any debate here will decide for any individual angler whether they keep a flossed fish or not. They are going to do what they will, regardless.

Hey James, how in the heck could a top gun angler like you allow a fish to swallow your bait and not feel it or set the hook until it's back out the gill plate and in it's side? Keith kinda set ya up for some ribbing on that fluke.

SNAGGING: well a lot of people do it gear guys and fly guys...if the hook is in the mouth then its legal. i fish both..
to me, the best thing about fishing is the "GRAB" hands down. after that whatever happens, happens.
I ran into a lot of backwood guys last springer season that all got $299 merit awards for, you guessed it SNAGGING.
It's not worth it...i like my gear and my rig too much to mess with that stuff

Last summer I fished Blue Creek for the first time. One of the first things I noticed was everyone was fishing these rediculously long leaders that were like 6 to 10 feet long. much longer than my standard 3 to 4 foot leaders. my first thought was "these fish must be really spooky". I also noticed that thoes with the long leaders were the ones catching the fish. So I put on a 8 foot leader and eventually I caught a fish. After that first trip was when the "flossing on the Skok" threads began popping up. I saw quotes like "any leader longer than 4' is flossing not fishing" and " any leader longer than 3' should be illegal" and "with a 10'leader you wouldn't feel a bite anyway". I couldn't believe everyone that was fishing Blue Creek was intentionally flossing. In retrospect, I couldn't be certain but I'm pretty sure I hooked my fish inside the mouth. I should hope I would notice something strange if the hook was outside the mouth pointing in. Anyway, to be sure I wasn't indeed flossing I decided to investigate further. I went back to Blue Creek and decided to play the "eager netter". I netted 9 fish and all were hooked inside the mouth. With this I felt confident that long leaders fished from the bank did not = flossing. Are some fish flossed? I'm sure, but none that I saw. I cant explain why such long leaders are so successful at Blue Creek. But I don't think flossing is the answer.

Mike

Kunan I've seen many river with guys using long leaders like the Lewis, Kalama, Satsop etc. my theory is that the fish open and close their mouths constantly and with a long leader it greatly improves the chances of the line pass by the fishes open mouth and when you set the hook the drag of the water causes the hook to go into their mouth.. There is a big difference on the feel of a grab with a 3-4' leader opposed to a 10-12' one.. Then longer one seems like a slight pull like your hung-up...
But thats just my opinion

An interesting perspective on flossing can be researched on Canadian sites. It is a very heated debate just as it's becoming here. From what I've gathered it is an endless debate.................

FJ...out.

That pic DJ posted must be of a 4-legged emu?

i think RT came up with a way to get rid of snaggers, just throw a bucket of paint on them lmao

i guess the only way to make sure 100% you're not snagging is, dont go fishing...everyone has a strong personal opinion about this but its such a gray area...more an ethical question than anything else...i guess the debate will never end, now im actually kinda sorry i brought this topic up, it feels like im in a regular newsgroup, i bailed off the newsgroups long ago because of all the bickering when people turn a simple topic into a personal issue, we might as well be talking politics here, it would go over just as well.

consider this...

scenario #1 - you are drifting a corkie or whatever, and your lead bumps a rock in a funny way, seems like a fish pulling at it and makes you think "fish", so you set the hook. at that same moment a fish is swimming next to your bait and is uninterested in your offering but is so close that when you set the hook, the hook sweeps across and into the mouth, and you proceed to land the fish.

scenario #2 - you are drifting, a fish sees your corkie from across the river and beelines at it, the water is colored so you cant see the fish coming. it takes your corkie in it's mouth and turns to run, you feel the take and go to set the hook. a split second before you can set the hook, the fish opens its mouth to get a better grip on your bait and rolls around to head back where it was holding, wrapping the line around itself. on the hookset, the hook slips out of its mouth and down its body, hooking the fish in the belly. you then land this belly hooked fish.

without seeing what was going on under the water, how would you be able to tell with absolute certainty whether or not you had legally and honestly fooled the fish?

I recall a while back one of the more active posters on this board(don't remember who exactly) saying that they did indeed snag fish(reds I believe) on a river in Alaska.
They said that it was fine to do it up there because it's legal on that particular river and it doesn't hurt the population.
But they condemned anyone who did it down here because it is immoral and unethical.
My point is since when do laws have anything to do with morals and ethics???
I never could figure that one out.

Well, KSR, I think you might be over-analyzing. I speculate there are 2 types of fishermen: The legitimate angler, and the snagger. Snaggers don't care where a fish is hooked, the angler does.

To review scenario #1: Way to go! Could one even tell they actually hooked a second fish? Legally hooked, no problem.

#2: If you land a belly-hooked fish, the legitimate angler will immediately release the fish (since it's the law), but the snagger will be relieved it wasn't hooked in the tail.

I'm just trying to boil it down to a much simpler form.

I'm still relatively new to river fishing, but accidental snagging is something that a lot of fishermen will encounter, and the disposition of the fish (released or bonked) will separate the true fisherman from the lowlife, inbred, one-toothed snagger.

Anyway, that's my worthless nickel's worth

John

Sinker, I am one of those BB members who routinely lines fish. I've never been to Alaska to do it though...... I've always done it right here in WA.Now, if you disagree with my tactics, well, that's your right and I certainly dont fault anyone who has moral issues when it comes to keeping a fish that has been lined. We all have our own little codes that each of us live by. That's OK. What I have a problem with is all of these Godd@mn hypocrites who would be the first people in line to slam me for simply being honest "Lining is snagging" "What a lowlife you are,Zozo" " If I ever see you line a fish, I'll turn you in"....... Then, right on the heels of that, they talk about how much they love to line reds up in AK...... Their justification? IT"S LEGAL!!!!! THERE ARE NO LAWS AGAINST IT!!!!!!!! Well boys, that doesn't cut it for me! Just because something is legal to do doesn't make it right. The Indians net the hell out of salmon and leave the carcasses to rot in the sun.... It must be OK, because its legal for them to do so. It's legal in the state of WA to have sex with and marry your 2nd cousin..... Is it OK to do just because its legal? Up until about five years ago, It was legal to produce child porn in Japan.... They finally made it against the law to produce it, but it's still perfectly legal to posess it.... WOW, It must be perfectly OK for a guy to go to Japan and get his rocks off be viewing depictions of adults and animals having sex with children......Hell, wouldn't all of you judgemental Hypocrites say so, after all, its legal. One more thing in closing and then I will end this post...... I have never, ever, in my entire life, kept or killed a native fish..... Even where it is legal to do so, because I have a moral conflict with it. The legality or illegality of the issue makes no difference to me. I don't like to kill something as majestic as a native Steelhead, so I dont do it. But at the same time, I dont get up on this BB and start slamming the people who do retain natives. Maybe its time for the lot of you people to re revalueate your standads and how quickly you decide to judge somebody

the definition of snagging on pg.13 of the sport fishing rules says attempting to take fish with a hook and line in such a way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth.everyone who fishes has accidently snagged a fish in his outings at one time or another.when this happens just release the fish.one time this year i had a coho take a spinner and jump i could see the spinner in his mouth,after a brief battle i felt slack and then the fish was on again only in the side thus becoming a snagged fish which i released.stuff like this happens while fishing.what it boils down to is ethics which are standards of behavior or conduct which are considered to be morally right.everybody must make a personal judgement about whether his or her behavior is right or wrong.if a person believes that his actions are morally right then it is ethical for him to act this way.scott