LittleZoZo and I have tossed a couple emails back and forth since his misreading of my post in the snagging thread. My last response to him is something that I feel that I might as well offer up to the board and take my lumps. Here it goes:

***

What it comes down to for many of us family men is putting food on the table. Sadly, my folks went through a difficult time financially when I was growing up so we relied on my father to bring home the bacon. I wish it was bacon, but it was fish. Salmon and steelhead, three to four meals a week. Baked, steaked, broiled, barbecued, you name it. And I got SICK OF IT. To this day it's just not what it should be.

Now I catch it to feed to my wife and kids. She doesn't like cooking it so it's up to me to prepare it without gagging. Don't get me wrong, though. It's good eating, but I still have that twitch in my belly from those days of fish.

I don't get many opportunities to fish, and my tackle is far from the Loomis/Lamiglas groups. So, when I do go fishing for salmon I'm going for food. While I haven't ever lined fish (knowingly), when the fish are thick and lockjawed and that bump I feel turns out to be something other than their mouth, I'm not against keeping the fish. The tackle I use is specifically for a mouth-take, but if something else presents itself and it means feeding my children then so be it.

So no, we really aren't too far away from each other. This year is the first year that I've really gotten any salmon fishing in since probably 10 years ago. I'm a horrible cast with a levelwind but the coastal creek I fished this year didn't require much casting. Actually, the Wind River cleanup was my first salmon fishing in a long time, and Ramstrong probably feared for his life every time I casted. Maybe if things get better (like maybe my position in the government getting graded where it's supposed to be, which would be a roughly 25-40% salary increase) I'll be able to fish more and become more successful. Until then, I take what I can get.

When money's tight, it's all about putting food on the table. We know this.

David

***

Okay, I've put on my flame-retardant waders. Sling it at me. Tell me I'm wrong. By the letter of the law I am, and if I was ever caught I'd (somehow) pay the fine. But damnit, my kids need food. And if I'm running out of time in the day and can't get them to bite it's gonna be hard for me to let that 10-20 lbs of FOOD go back in the water.

David,

Just read your post............WOW..

The sportsman in me tells me your are wrong, the parent in me thinks back to when my kids were small and we ate lots of beans and rice. Fortunately for us, times are better now, if they wernt, I can not sit here in my heated house, typing on this keyboard connected to my fairley new 1.5Ghz dell computer, with a full freezer and condem you. I think I might like to, but I can not. If my fellow fishers wish to condem me also, so be it, I will take my lumps...
As my final parting words, I would like to say that I condem you for one reason and admire you for two reasons:
1. Shame on you for violating societies rules, for taking fish that I migh catch and taking them in an unsportsman like manner. The fish you catch might be my third or forth for the day and you prevented me from having a great as opposed to a good day. Shame on you for potentially damagening our fish runs. As a sportsman, It is difficult to accept what you have done.

1.A. I admire you for being willing to take a non popular stand in public, bearing all, and publiclicly willing to take your lumps on this public forum. ( Let your kids read this... Kids... Your Dad is a stand up guy, and you should be proud of his strength as a man.)

2. Willing to do what is necessary to take care of your family, even if it means taking potential beating (verbal, financial should you get pinched.)

Who among us, if faced with the same situation would do differant? And if so, which one of us would be willing to bear our sole on such a public forum.

David, from my perspective, you are a stand up guy, you are in the wrong, but you are a stand up guy. ... Tell you what.. I will take you fishing sometime to try to up your skill level. Hopefully, some other good people on this board will do the same (.. superfly, keith, james, steve H, shane, osprey, parker, FM , BOE, (any others), you know who you are) and if the next time you absolutely need a fish and it's foul hooked, let thisd one go and call me and I will contribute from my freezer. One dad fisherman/sportsman to another............

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Fishbait ]

Sad to hear of your financial plight, distaste for salmon, and lack of fishing ethics Dave. Seems you are out to make fish distasteful to your children as your father did to you. And in an illegal manner; using the needy food on the table bullsh!t excuse. How much have you spent on fishing rods, reels, tackle, bait, license, gas, etc., etc. to go keep snagged fish to eat?!? Those heavy expenses could put a lot of food and more eating variety on your table dude.

Man,if your kids need food that bad there a lot cheaper ways to provide it than sportfishing.
Definetly not cost effective.
Why do I get the feeling you are putting us on?

honesty is a great quality to have...thanks for sharing!!!

Been there...can't find harm or shame in taking care of one's family.

Gooose

I agree that it takes alot to go against the grain here, but what a crappy excuse!

Add up the cost of everything you need for fishing, plus gas and time. This amount is what you are robbing from your children if you must snag for food.

If you have a Govt. job, you are doing better than most. At least you get a paycheck 52 weeks a year.

Holy cow Dave Jackson, my post on the snagging thread must have hit home. Like I said, you pick your battles.

I for one am not going to confront anyone who has the mindset to snag his dinner. My ex-brother-in-law from way up the Washougal was very unfortunate in his childhood. They did whatever they had to do to feed the family. It unfortunatly carried over to his adult life where he was busted for poaching a deer with his headlights. You think I'm going to confront that guy in the back woods with a gun in his hand in the dark to explain the illegality of the situation? No thankyouverymuch, I have a wife and 3 kids that need me.

We all break the law. We speed with the car, we roll through stop signs or even run red lights, we probably drive home after having a few too many pop's at the bar or we fire up a doob in the privacy of our own home (or wherever). Where does snagging a fish fall into that? Certainly not life threatening to me. Yes the resource must be protected, but in reality we sportfisherman are the collective drops of WD 40 in the Columbia compared to habitat degredation, indescriminate commercial harvest and el nino. Sure we do our thing to help, but every snagger that is out there is still out there. The sportsman damn well better abide by the rules, but it is for the police to deal with. Are you going to call the cops on your buddy because you know he's smoking pot and you don't agree with it? I hope to hell not. If my buddy is snagging to feed his kids, I wish him tight lines, and move downstream. I also refuse his invitations to the river though.

OK Dave... You have gone this far...

1. 1o yrs since you have fished much?
2. What kind of gear?
3. Govt Job? .... 52 paycheck per year... care to bear all and tell us if it's 18, 23 34 or 56K per year. Yes, unfornately it does matter to those of us that face layoffs and market conditions each day.

This is not an easy answer. As we move forward, I will keep in mind that this thread was started bu Dave.... if conditions were switched and i was in his place.........the question is ... would I have the balls to do what he did and step up to this forum and fess up..........would you?

I did not post this looking for pity. My pride is too strong to do such things. Instead, I did this to put out another aspect of the snagging debate.

The last rod and reel that I bought was the $30 setup that was mostly birthday money for my SON. My levelwind rod and reel are about 8 years old and they were a Christmas gift. My spinning rod and reel were also gifts from about 15-20 years ago. My vest was a gift from my wife 4 years ago. Heck, even my rock-pulling fishing line was Spider Wire my dad bought and didn't like so I got it.

My license and tags were purchased with a (follow the trend) gift card. For the three trips that I've made to fish in Washington (first a cleanup on the Wind, second a fishless trip with Scrog at Hoodsport, and third a trip to the Kalama) was with daily permits out of my pocket.

My two Oregon fall salmon trips were carpooling with my father to Big Creek where we brought home near limits. Thankfully I have food in my freezer that my family enjoys (they more than me, but they eat a lot of foods I don't so there ya go).

Luckily we aren't at a point where fish is needed for existance; it's only a luxurious addition to the menu.

While I know that there are obviously better deals out there on ramen, pasta, beans, etc (and trust me, we're damned good at it), I also get more out of fishing than just the meat.

It is my religion. My place where I reconnect with Earth. Fishing is in my blood. It's hard to explain to a woman from SoCal, so I don't.

Fishing can be done without the Loomis, without the Lamiglas, without the Curado, Owner, $4 lures, $20 lines, and $5000+ boats. I'm doing it. I'm not poor, but when it comes to bringing home food for the family I have a hard time letting it swim away simply because it swam into my line.

I fish to catch fish legally. If I'm not successful that way and one runs into my offering from the side...I'm probably going to keep it.

I'm not putting any of you on by saying this stuff. I can understand why you would suspect such with my history of posting, but since I don't get out much sometimes I feel that it is all I can offer.

I too admire your honesty David but I find your logic flawed. Are you having that much trouble providing for your family? There are ways to do that without breaking the law. If I were having troubles like that I would sell as many of my luxury items like rods, reels or whatever to get the necessary item, I've done this very thing. Sure salmon are plentiful this year and a few snagged fish are not going to hurt the run but think a minute, What if everyone who was having trouble like you are resorted to an ilegal activity such as this? Maybe someone who hasn't caught a fish in awhile could justify it too! I think you used poor judgenment and took the easy way and maybe you want us to help you ease your guilty conscience. I can't do it...sorry it just doesn't wash.
I relate to the pay cuts you talk about because I had to do it too recently but I can still put food on the table without doing something illegal.
Good luck

Fishbait:

Up until this year I was a trout angler, and that's it. Go out, catch a few 10" trout, and enjoy the surroundings. It was only when I started reading these boards that I got the nerve to give it a try again.

Again? Yeah, I tried it as a teen and wasn't very good at it. Caught 1 spawned steelhead and four springers on the Willamette. Figure dozens of trips with Dad into the mix and you'll see why I'd get disappointed. Trout are easy.

In March I was one of the first casualties of the dot com that I worked for. Somehow someone was looking over me and after filling out a crapload of paperwork in the application (essay questions, anyone?) I was able to get a job paying less than $35K a year. My wife stays home with the kids because if you take her earnings and subtract what daycare would be, then subtract taxes...it's not worth it. That and we had our kids for US, and not to be farmed out. Our decision, I know.

I forgot to mention BOE on a fishing trip this year, but I haven't gone so low that shad are a comprehendable food fish.

There, I've laid it out there for you just short of putting out my income and outgo like I was with a debt councellor. Trust me, I am evergrateful that I have a job in these times.

Oh, and check out www.fedworld.gov and go to the JOBS section. Amazing the number of jobs out there if you don't mind filling out a crapload of paperwork to apply for them.

I've never had to or wanted to snag fish. I've never kept an incidently foulhooked fish. All of you should know from my past posts on snagging that I detest snaggers...but if it came down to the opportunity to provide food for my family if I had one....well I just don't know. I do know when our family was really poor....four kids on my dads beginning teachers salary....we ate lots of venison all year. Didn't question it even when I was of an age to realize what was going on. When I was in college my roomie had a trap line...ate lot's of wierd stew. Duck, gooose, grouse even coot was on the menu all week long. Bunch of coho, dogs and a few steelies also. Criticism is easy from on high...understanding from our assumed lofty ethical positions seems more difficult.

Gooose

Well guys, That little post that Dave Jackson put up was word for word the exact same E-mail he sent me. I have this to say....... I have never, ever illegally taken a fish in the name of keeping food on the table for my family. I have however, poached countless deer, elk, Antelope, pheasant, turkey, and various other animals of a more domestic nature in the name of feeding my family. Those days are long gone now, in fact, I gave up hunting a few years ago..... BECAUSE I HATED IT!!!!!! I didn't hunt for pleasure, or for the thrill of the chase or any of that ****.... I did it because we literally had NO FOOD IN THE HOUSE!!!! I was living in Montana at the time, and there was no work to speak of at all. If I didn't poach, we didn't eat! Simple as that! Now, I make good money, I have a good job, and I have plenty to eat, but I would string a gilnet across the river and net an entire run into extinction if it would mean the difference between food and hunger for my babies. Yeah, It's real easy to come down on a guy for being honest, because true honesty rarely, if ever has a defense, nor should it need one. Here's a guy who went out on a limb (much like I did with the fish lining thing) and you guys are ready to tear him apart. I have news for you: Not all of us were raised with the idea in mind that hunting and fishing was sport. We were raised to see fish and wildlife as a food source. We went out hunting, not to comune with nature, but with a spot light and a .22, so that we could kill as many deer in an evening as we could put into the old man's pick up.... Sometimes we'd get lucky and get a bear, then we could sell the gall bladders and paws to the Vietnamese up in Seattle for a pretty penny.... We'd make the rest into sausage and I would have to eat those horrible bear sausage sandwiches for the next six months. Anyway, all of that stuff is about twenty years in the past, and I'm pretty sure that the statute of limitations has run out by now....... Dave, I dont keep snagged fish (Just lined ones), but I admire your honesty and the manliness you have shown by having the balls to stand up and express a little honesty.... I would hope to see a few of the rest of you guys do the same. Give this guy a break.

Please understand that I'm not condoning the abuse of a resource. People who know me know this of me. I'm just stating that for the five salmon trips I was able to go on this year that when I landed a couple fish out of five that weren't mouth shots that I kept them.

It's food. A couple fish out of a run of 60,000 on this creek. Two fish that wouldn't be pitchforked into a truck at pennies per fish for cat food. Two fish that gave my family about 8 meals each.

It's ethically wrong, but it's also something that I could live with to bring home food.

I just recently went back to work after being unemployed for 4 months, I took a pretty big pay cut from what I'm used to and I am supporting myself my wife and 2 kids, I took on various odd jobs to get me by and now my wife is also working, and raising a 19 mon. old and a 3 month old. Things have been tight to say the least but I have not considered nor will I consider keeping a snagged fish, as a matter of fact, last Tue. was the 1st fishing trip I've made since before losing my previous job, foul hooked an ok looking silver on the sky and didn't even cross my mind to keep it. I respect the fish and the resource to much to stoop to this.
I have to ask, if your job is not paying the bills why not give up those fishing, I mean snagging, days and find something better. I don't buy lame ass excuses to snag.

WOW. How does one reply to that?? I know that we all know it is wrong to keep illegally hooked fish, and that yeah, if Dave were to cut out the fishing trips he would have a few more bucks to put food on the table. I am not going to condone the behavior; but how many of us remember the depression? The REAL depression? I have heard the stories from my Grandfather. NOTHING was sacred shy of putting food on the table. Was Dave in this position? No, not if he had a gov't job. But Uncle Sam is not known for overpaying. All I can say is that it takes big balls to put this on a BB where he knows darn well he is going to take some nukes, and they are well deserved. Dave, if you need some fish to feed you family, I'll empty my freezer out for ya: AFTER you tell me what your GS level is. I'm a gov't puke too, so let's let that go at that. You want to catch a few, shoot me an e-mail off line, like one of the guys said way up top, I have a boat, and I'll take you. You can take home all legal caught fish.

Fish4Steel:

Eight.

Now I'm going to bed.

I visit here, more than posting and I have come away with good things to use in the sport of fishing. Lately I have come away from this board with less and less. Most of what I read here revolves around how to bring out the worst in people rather than the best. Threads that start out interestingly enough tend to degrade into mud slinging and put-downs for those that are brave enough to state an opinion. One that comes to mind is the Snagging Thread started by KSR. That thread ended ugly and now this one seems headed that way. Those that slung the mud the hardest are now going to recieve it back two-fold or so it seems in my Opinion.

It seems that some are all to eager to condem those that have differing morales or values rather than forgive and teach them new ones. Labeling each other as Crackers and Doughballs Snaggers Low-Lifes or whatever else the mind conjures up, and then passing it off as innocent Humor seems easy enough. If this is the best that we have to offer as Sports Persons by condeming rather than teaching, then pity the plight of the species we so desperatly try to preserve!

Consider who you are and look at the power we have collectively to change the way salmon and steelhead fishing will be in the future. Will we be making an impact or will we all be here condeming and labeling each other for our lack of moral values and ethics.
Some of us should be using our talents and stature to be hounding people who will make a difference for salmon and steelhead. Instead all I read here is lately is bickering and mudslinging.........Such a pity.
I'm not so sure I like the sounds.
Do You?

Lurking SkaGuy

Noted and Edited. Thank you Ryan.

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: SkaGuy ]

amen!!!

SkaGuy-
I must correct you though as you said this board was sounding board for the WSC. There are about 2700 registered members of this board and about 150 members of the WSC, many of whom, do not post on this board.

Yes, this board helped form the WSC but that was becasue this is the most read and used forum by PNW steelheaders and not because the majority of members on this board are WSC members-in fact that is the complete opposite. The so-called mudlsingers in these rant, rave and b*tch posts are rarely if at all WSC members!

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: RPetzold ]

Sorry to hear about the bad times... If you really need the fish feel free to email or stop by.

But this thread is a little to much for me.
Keith

I must say I am a little confused ...I agree with the fact that family comes first but I guess what I dont understand is that there are other ways to feed a family....My father has always had a decent paying job as well as I but I have heard stories from when he moved here from canada!!!When things were a whole lot different from now..Back in the 30's and 40's there wasn't any food banks like now...I'm not tryin to get on your case Dave but I believe there is other options..

If you need it I have venison and elk meat and any type of fish you desire in my freezer!!! If you need it just tell me where you live and I will more then gladly drop it by your house...

There are lots of ways besides poaching that you can feed your family and I'm sure that most people on this board will give you fish, deer or elk if you need it!!!

If not then I agree feed your family!!!

EMAIL me if you need help-TMBRCUTR@CS.COM

you are tring way to hard to convince people of your situation and how you justify it.
I to came from apoverty stricken home but instead of going out and doing something illegal my parents (both)worked two jobs to feed there family.
I can admit I do very well now for myself and my family but speaking from past expierences your B.S'n the wrong group.
You took your lumps now end the post
I will not however hold the past against you and hope fellow posters will not either.
do right by your family and set a good example for your kids earn the hard way not the wrong way

About six years ago,a now retired game warden friend of mine,was out patrolling out around Dewwatto.I guess he pulled into the Port campground just in time to see a guy toss what looked like a Sea gull into his trunk.Of course he went over and asked the guy what was going on.As if there was nothing wrong the guy said he was hunting.My buddy said you could immediatly tell he wasn't from here.Also said that there was I think like 4 kids running around,none too clean or well dressed.so my buddy asked to see what he was hunting and sure enough it was the sea gulls.The guy gave the same sob story as dave, he was feeding his family,he had just moved here etc.My buddy was actually a pretty cool guy if you were honest with him,and were'nt selling gall bladders to the japs,so he let the guy know what he needed ,protected,hunting license, etc then let him go,with the sea gulls.My buddy had to ask though what a sea gull tasted like.What the guy answer,kinda a cross between bald eagle and spotted owl. I don't have a family,just my wife me and two dogs.I have seen people out snagging fish with the intention of lighting the load on the kitchen table.whatever.They are also not the ones down at the hole bragging about their fishing prowess.I was out a job once though and found myself living in my truck.Instead of living on the streets I went and lived in the woods on a secret beaver pond.I poached quite a bit in those 4-5 months.I think I stayed a alot longer because I liked it though.Broke the law,don't feel bad,will only apologize to my maker,as sincerly as I can.You I don't think that it is snagging, linning, flossing, whatever,It's the attitude that it is done with.When it is done with greed and selfrightousness then I get pissed.Now I catch you feeding your family on one of my favorite steelhead streams and you will find out why up north they call me griz

Dave, You make $35k and have tax problems with the wife working? I doubt it. Get another accountant.

I will not go into my situation further, as it is getting way too private for me. Suffice it to say we're in a house we couldn't sell for what we owe and our payment is more than one of my two paychecks per month. Add to that a car payment, utilities, and food...there isn't much room for luxury.

I will say it again. I have only gone fishing 5 times this year, with the last two being carpool trips that cost me next to nothing. I would fish more often if I could afford it, but I cannot so I don't.

Thank you for the offers of charity, but this was not why I put my story up here last night. It was written to show that for some it comes down to food, and if while egg drifting I accidentally snag a fish I will have a hard time letting it go. Bears don't worry if the shot is forward of the gillplate. Neither do eagles.

I only hope that those of you who condemn so strongly never find yourself in a similar position.

There are no hard feelings here.

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Dave Jackson ]

There are alot of people hurtin out here and alot more will be hurtin. Every guy out there breakin the law to make it is a slap in the face for us guys eatin 3 for a buck cup of noodles and rice. I guess out in the sticks like Millwakee you cant just wash windows or go around and sweep someone's lot to make a few bucks.
There has to be anti poachin laws otherwise like was said here-our rivers would be fished to extinction. I guess you hit the next closest river at that point. Maybe there is a farmer's field on the way, stop and get some apples or what not. Hell, take the kids, have them help. Cuz my 35k a year aint makin my new car payment or my internet bill.
Sorry from someone who's Dad worked at 7-11 and whose mother worked 30 years, kinda pisses me off.And yes I will be bummed if it happens to me, but if I go fishin with my dad and foul hook one, he will be sayin "I hope it lives"

i know i am to new here, and maybe should not interfere and just mind my own business. i think this an important topic so i will tell you what i think. i have accidently hooked into fish before. i do not keep them as i dont have to feed a family and i am only fishing for fun. i go out fishing becuase i like being outside.

i think maybe some people have higher morals than other people. i would not say dave is a bad person or not a very moral person. i just think he does not really ask himself if this is the right thing to do to keep a snagged fish when he catches it. i think there are lots of people that do this and it is a reflection on how our society has been changing. its like they think they deserve something even if they did not get it the right way. i dont know anyone who does not want more than they have. dont we all? i know some guys that steal stuff sometimes because they cant find enough work and i wont have anything to do with them because i thnk they could get by without resorting to stealing. if i find out they have done someting again, i will turn them in too.

i sure dont understand though why dave wrote it on here what he did. is it just so you all will get in a argument? or does he really feel deep down he did wrong and wants you all to help him change? it sounds like most of you know some of the others. i dont know maybe there is a group here that think this is ok and they all fish together or something?

so dave i think next time you go fishing, ask yourself if you really need to keep that fish and wouldnt you feel better about yourself if you let it go?

Schwing, Nice post. I think some people do post around here just to get a rise. The Internet is a great place to say anything you want and on a board like this, many people will read it and you will be heard regardless of your social ability or opportunity. Posting to get a rise is not bad. It's mischievous and sometimes malicious, but it is entertainment. You have to sift through the BS and pick your battles.

Is DJ pulling our leg? Could be. Another benefit of the Internet is the nearly absolute anonymity. If you want you can create a totally fictitious character and play him on a site like this. Seems like a lot of effort for little gain, except to possibly use it to get a rise without embarrassing your true self. However, I know there are people in dire straits (or at least they think so) who are harvesting to fill the freezer and there are sportsmen (or at least they think are) who fish for the sport.

You said one thing about how the world is changing. Actually illegal harvesting behavior is a throwback to days past when things were not regulated as tightly and people who had the resource available did what they had to in order to put fish and game on their table, including dynamite and spotlight poaching. So I think it is more that the world hasn't changed completely yet and it will take the education of several more generations to evolve to that higher level.

Will we ever eliminate the poverty that results in the illegal harvest mentality? Probably not. The one to educate is the everyday guy that wants to catch fish legally, can’t seem to do it and then resorts to the Big Creek snag fest to bring home the trophy.

Dave,

I too am truly sorry about your plight. The impression I get about you from reading your posts here, and the other board is that you are a very intelligent guy. I hope you haven't resigned yourself to that 35k govt. job permanently. Through my experience in the employment world, I've learned that if you look hard enough, there is always opportunity for someone with a good head on their shoulders. Don't give up the fight. Good things come to good people.

If you have the money for your computer and access to the internet, the "food" argument is just BS. I my view, just don't call yourself a fisherman, Fool might fit better.

I think Pitch Pocket is right and now I'm wondering the motivation behind this thread in the first place.

$35,000 a year doesn't seem to bad to me. Myself and alot of the people who lived in the upper skagit region grew up on alot less than that and still managed to survive. If you needed to get meat for the family 5 fishing trips doesn't seem like it provides much. Most people try harder than that.
The best thing you can do after getting out of a rough situation is to give something back to the things that helped you out. clean up the river, plant a tree... do something that will help out future generations incase they have to do the same thing.
One more thing: plunking is usually more productive than snagging if the fish are spread out and you won't spend as much money (rarely should you lose anything) and most importantly its legal. A ticket for snagging takes more food from the table than the fish will ever provide.

Let me assure you that the personna that I have presented on this board is my own and it is not ficticious in any way. My post last night is my life. Heck, I'm one of the few here using my own real name so if that isn't standing up to the plate than I'm not sure what is.

Don't question my motives, and quit trying to read between the lines. There is nothing ulterior to my posts. I am only presenting my beliefs and my reasoning. What I have learned from this is the only thing that separates myself the "snagger" from others more "righteous" is that when I land a fish that has been unintentionally foul hooked I keep it.

Sadly, there are some here who now have branded me "morally-corrupt" without really knowing me, and that is fine. I wouldn't care to hang out with someone so quick to judge, anyway, Those whom I have spent fishing time with know me for who I am.

When I'm fishing I give more to the environment than I take. I was at the Wind River cleanup...as were a few dedicated others. We missed the best fishing by a couple weeks, and because of that we had fewer attendees. Yet I still drove the distance to clean a place that needed it. And ask those who were there how much trash I came out of that canyon dragging. Do some searches over at iFish under fobbman and find my posts about bank fishing with a trash bag in tow to clean up where I fished.

I'm very real. And I'm not the only one in this position. I may be one of the only ones to throw myself to the wolves in hopes that a few are inspired to think.

As my final parting words, I would like to say that I condem you for one reason and admire you for two reasons

Thank you. Your ballot has been received and your tally will be added to the total.

DJ, I wouldn't want to hang out with most of these holier than thou, hypocritical fisherman either.
If times were tight around here (which they may be real soon if the aerospace industry doesn't pick up a whole bunch) and the river down the road had a whole bunch of salmon in it. I know where I'd be.
Everyone on here assumes you need a real spendy rod and reel to go fishing. Go to most of the meat hole rivers and see what kind of tackle alot of guys are using.
Doesn't cost much to fish a local river with old tackle.

We have one child. I work nights and the wife works days. Kid goes to grandmas for a little while during our overlap of work schedules and daddy goes through life very tired.
If we had the kid in daycare by the time we bought the 2nd car for the wife to get there, we'd be breaking even on her job.
Things aren't good out there and are gonna get worse before they get better.

You should feel lucky you found a gov't job. Right after Bush moved into office he put a hiring and pay freeze into effect.

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: sinker ]

This has turned into a real wierd thread . I'm just wondering if one or more members are fishing for hypocrites? If it's a real situation then I've posted my opinion. Anyone who's beenhere a whle knows my opinion on snaggers. I have my personal beliefs on these issues but I sure don't practice or believe in orthodoxical dogmas like many of these posters. Bust on me too if you want...but guys some of your ideals are almost religious in their fervor and zeal. Sorry but that's part of the sportfishermans problem in getting things done. World's not black and white. Learn to understand and stand in someone else's shoes before you label them. So bust on me if you want...guess it's my turn anyway? Just my 5 cents worth.

gooose

I was going to post my thoughts, but Sinker beat me to it. I will anyways. There is some great info on this board, but way too many egos, gear showoffs, cliques, pc hypocrites, and people that kiss a** to feel accepted. If DJ needs to take a foul hooked fish home to his family because of financial shortfalls, so what. I'm sure he has paid his dues in years of purchasing licenses. At least he has the balls to open up and tell it like it is. It could be a heck of a lot worse. He could be out stealing the kickers off your boats.

Grnhead & Sinker........ Very well put.... Both of you. It is refreshing and encouraging to see that there are still some of you out there that can appreciate honesty.

Hi Dave et All: Many replies ,some favourable but most against Daves policy. But not one which captured Daves point:he cant tell the difference between a mouth hookup and a foul hooking: and neither can you whoever you are.
With seventy years of salmonid fishing behind me I have seen every possible form of salmon strike behaviour,we give fish too much credit for always hitting their prey on the button. Underwater videos show that salmon miss their strike more times than they connect.When they do they will try to disable their prey with a tailwhack .I have watched Atlantic salmon chasing live prey and often they will leap and deliberately smack the target with their tails as the crash on the water.In the saltchuck when salmon attack a schol of herring they slash through it with teeth and tails disabling as many fish as possible .if there were a hook in the way they would be foul hooked as sure as fate.
If Dave were going out to deliberately snag fish he would equip himself with proper snagging tackle .He isent he is simply saying if he gets a foul hooking by accident he is simply keeping the fish. True by the regulations he should release it; but just why does that regulation exist? Simply to prevent people from being deliborate snaggers.Dave isent one of them ;indeed they are few and far between and usually operate at night with a pitlamp not in broad daylight.
So smarten up you too cant tell the difference between a good and a foul hooking till you have the fish in hand.Give Dave a break.
ancient steeheader coot

well said coot, i was wondering if there was anyone on these boards i`d like to fish with, i see there is now, also, by chance are any of you sterio typers in law enforcement ?

Things are so bad, how can you justify paying for internet? I can't afford @home. I'm stuck with modem at $15 a month.

Fishhead5

thanks coot, its nice to see another one on this board who can see the real world for what it is

Boater,
Did we run into each other together on the Lower Green (Duwamish) fishing by the bridge in Tukwila
back when the silver run was hot and heavy?

I think a whole lot of you guys are full of B.S.
I also think awhole lot of you guys just think your a better person than whoever makes a post on snagging.Or admits to that or lining or whatever.
I doubt if there is a single one of you that is perfectly moral,or lawabiding.This just gives you the chance to act like it.
Its just the perfect opportunity for you to feel better about yourself,because you just got the chance to rag on somebody for doing something you just wouldnt admit to.Whether its snagging or anything else.
I hope all of you feel better about yourselves now.
Now go look in the mirror,think about all the illegal or immoral things you have done.Then start feeling like you should.
A low life hipocrite.
I hope you feel better,I do

Huntnfish, How have you been? I was wondering when you were going to jump in on this one. I've got to say that I agree what you're saying... Its the same thing I've been saying all along.

Coot, You also make some very good points...... I guess that's what 70+ years of fishing experience will get you.

Hntnfsh,

You just catagorized a whole lot of good people as being lowlife hypocrites. You just made yourself look foolish!!! There may be a few that fit your hardcore negative outlook on life within this forum, but I am quite sure they are in the minority! I am against fishers keeping snagged fish. And as I said, I don't buy the excuse of financial hardship to justify it. Especially when you earn 35+K a year and have enough money for all the accumulated fishing expenses and internet expenses that could be used to put food on the table. Hear this dude - THAT IS NOT HYPOCRITICAL LOWLIFENESS to believe those CORRECT principles!!!!!!!!!!! Get a clue!

As for Dave, I have met him and overall he is not a bad guy. And I enjoy the wit in his posts. I just think he allowed the wrong rationale to invade his thinking and turn it into wrong justification in his mind. He is wrong and there is no getting around that. When the runs inevitably downturn the wrong 'keep snagged fish' rationale and action will still remain for those lawbreakers, and hurt our runs and sportfishermen's public image to the detriment of our potential fishing opportunitites! I hope he re-thinks his stance. And I hope you re-think your very improper condemnation of people who thought this thing out and expressed it correctly.

RT

I don't get it though. I'm not keeping more than my limit of fish, and I'm not trying to snag the fish. If I were trying to snag the fish, and/or keeping more than my limit, then I would understand the strong feelings.

Either I misspoke my situation or it was misunderstood. We are not destitute by any means, but at the same time it's difficult to let good food go back simply because I accidentally foul-hooked the fish. I will say it again: accidentally. Keeping my limit of three fish is no different than anyone else keeping their limit of three fish. I would have liked to have hooked all the fish in the mouth, but a couple of adipose hooked fish made it into the bag because I didn't want to waste food.

The hatchery got their fish, and then some. Upstream folks surely did well too from what I heard. My limit of fish did not threaten the run. If it would have, then they would have closed fishing the run long before my line went in the water.

I'm not up on Memaloose spotlighting the few deer that are up there. I'm not killing the alpha bull from a herd of elk on a game reserve. I'm fishing a legal stream using legal tackle and legal methods and keeping my legal limit. Accidental snagging does blemish the issue, but it does not make me an abuser of the resource.

I think RT is correct here.

Here is the definition of the word hypocrite from Encarta:
Somebody feigning high principles: somebody who gives a false appearance of having admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings

To keep it connected to fishing, a hypocrite might be someone who says he believes in releasing all improperly hooked fish, condemns others for not doing it, then goes out and keeps a snagged fish. Can you correctly call somebody a hypocrite because he refuses to keep a snagged fish, but runs a red light now and then? I think that presumes that person has admirable principals, beliefs or feelings about public safety at intersections. Not necessarily the case. In fact, he may just admit that he runs a red light now and then.

To call someone a hypocrite because it is possible that they keep snagged fish after saying they don’t is presuming the worst of an otherwise “innocent until proven guilty” person. You pretty much have to know if they lie about keeping snagged fish don’t you? Otherwise, you are simply reverting to personal attacks.

There is something wrong with keeping snagged fish. It is against the rules. Does it happen? Hell yes. There will always be the breakers of rules for whatever reason, economic or just plain disregard for the rules. There is certainly nothing wrong disagreeing with Dave Jackson’s thinking and finding it flawed based on “admirable principles, beliefs or feelings” as defined. Doesn’t mean the guy is a hypocrite at all, unless you get his photo pitching buzz bombs at Big Creek.

Dave, Don't be surprised by the reaction. There are some very stong feelings and concerns about the health and future of this resouce.

If you keep a fish "accidentally" buttoned foul, it is against the rules. Plain and simple.

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Pitch Pocket ]

Well I aint goin to any women's lib board and fessin up to wife beating.And not just because I would be lying. As far as I can tell- condescending view asked for, condescending view received. Be kinda boring and unrepresentative of the populace if we all chimed in with "it's ok, you just kinda broke the law".
**** if I remember right the last time I did something immorral or illegal (and yes, it has been a hell of a long time), guess what? There was someone to give me a ration.
Doubt if I am gonna feel like a low life for obeyin the law, though and especially not a "hipocrite" or a "sterio typer" I find that to be kind of a joke, sorry.

Dave, obviously you are looking at this situation thru a very narrow and self serving lens. I will copy your latest post above here and will use [these square parathesis] to interject my thoughts between your paragraphs - in hopes of coming to a better understanding of this important issue.

Your above post:

"I don't get it though. I'm not keeping more than my limit of fish, and I'm not trying to snag the fish. If I were trying to snag the fish, and/or keeping more than my limit, then I would understand the strong feelings.

[First off it's the law not to keep fish that aren't hooked IN the mouth. This law has to be in effect, adhered to, and enforced; or our fisheries would quickly go to chaos, lower runs, and close rivers! You are NOT privilaged to be above this much needed law Dave! And because your snagged fish aren't intentional, that does not justify breaking the needed law and keeping them just for you - or all the others that do this. And spare us the "I don't get it though" - you are plenty intelligent to "GET IT"; so quit insulting our intelligence and playing head games with us.]

Either I misspoke my situation or it was misunderstood. We are not destitute by any means, but at the same time it's difficult to let good food go back simply because I accidentally foul-hooked the fish.

[OK - it's difficult for you to let go of what is not legally or rightfully yours. Too bad you have such a selfish mindset. If you can't learn to hook fish properly - something that's not that difficult - you are just going to have to learn to deal with the difficulty of "doing the right thing". It's unfortunate that's so difficult for you. I would bet that you would be adverse to all people keeping all fish that were snagged - but not adverse for yourself to keep them! What made you so privilaged within your twisted mindset?!?]

I will say it again: accidentally. Keeping my limit of three fish is no different than anyone else keeping their limit of three fish. I would have liked to have hooked all the fish in the mouth, but a couple of adipose hooked fish made it into the bag because I didn't want to waste food.

[No different?!? Bullsh!t. Huge difference between legally kept fish and keeping illegally snagged fish, which often ruins fish number harvest management tools! And because of snaggers us sportfishers have curtailed seasons - so you ARE stealing our would-be legally caught fish.]

The hatchery got their fish, and then some. Upstream folks surely did well too from what I heard. My limit of fish did not threaten the run. If it would have, then they would have closed fishing the run long before my line went in the water.

[That excuse doesn't wash either; particularly in light of what I've already tried to bring to light for you. Excess hatchery fish are used very importantly for many things. The edible ones are sent to public food banks to help feed the needy (to which you wouldn't qualify for Dave). And the non-edible graded excess fish are used for such as 'salting' the watershed for their extremely important ecosystem nutrient supplying decay factor, which they now know is a major factor in trying to save native fish runs and to help the entire ecosystem; including tree growth in the raparian habitats (latest studies have proven these things). Any left over from that may be sold to pet food companies and the much needed revenue helps the very underfunded WDFW programs.]

I'm not up on Memaloose spotlighting the few deer that are up there. I'm not killing the alpha bull from a herd of elk on a game reserve. I'm fishing a legal stream using legal tackle and legal methods and keeping my legal limit. Accidental snagging does blemish the issue, but it does not make me an abuser of the resource."

[We are glad to hear you haven't yet typically evolved into an animal poacher too Dave; as many snaggers likely are. When you keep a snagged fish you are not keeping your 'legal' limit. Besides, you said you have only fished 5 times this year, keeping a couple of snagged fish - so now you are saying you are keeping limits?? And as clearly demonstrated above, you ARE contributing to abusing the resourse! The only way we can get around that is for society to ONLY allow Dave Jackson to keep snagged fish. Nobody else. Which in your narrow thinking somehow is the only fish you are considering as an insignificant impact on fish runs. How utterly crass and self-serving that mindset is. This wrong doing involves a lot more non-sportsmen than you. Give up the ghost!] >

With that all correctly clarified now, I still figure there are plenty of good guys on here that would be willing to show you how to catch fish legally. And in the actual case of lack of enough food, you have already received plenty of offers of food for you and your family.

RT

RT - that was so self-serving. so what if he hooks it in the mouth or outside the mouth and keeps the fish?? one fish has been harvested and it would affect the health of the run the same either way (one less fish)...which is nothing compared to the number of fish that end up in indian nets every year. (translation = the proverbial "drop in the bucket" analogy)

now, im not advocating snagging or any unethical means of taking fish...its just that every one of us is responsible for the decisions we make in life and we all will bear the burden of those choices. he already said he fishes with a license and legal gear in a legal manner, how far do you want to go with this?? should we call up the firing squad??

I'm a bit confused by parts of your post Aunty. Are you suggesting there are some members with adequat incomes here passing some kind of a judgement on anyone, as opposed to giving a rightful backed up opinion about snagged fish?

I also agree that if in a really tough situation, as you describe your friend's former condition, that people will do whatever they can to put food on the table. I hope we all would be that way; by trying all the legal means first before trying the most benign of illegal means within utter necessity.

Do ya think I can get away with keeping all the fish I catch, including snagged ones, and giving them to the actually needy would qualify as an exempt "Robin Hood". If so, gee maybe I'll try that out. Lots of fun. Naah.

KSR, clearly you didn't understand the content in my above post. And what you did tranpose of my opinion into your post is way off the mark! Try a re-read.

RT

Let me simplify things a little here.
First, nobody is perfect.
Second,We all do, have done,or will do something, that another person sees as illegal,immoral,or unsportsmanlike.
Third,none of us have been or will be in another persons shoes in any given situation.
Fourth,Its ok if people have different views on the same subject.
Fifth,It doesnt make us a better person just because we would behave differently than another person in a given situation.
Sixth,its better to change a persons ideals,by example, or a willingness to help, rather than ridicule,threats, or sarcasm.

I could go on for a long time on this one.And,yes there are a lot of good people with a vast wealth of knowledge on this B.B.And no,I'm not condemning all off them.But I really think that there are also a lot of people that post on here that live in what they think is a perfect little world.And that they are the reason its that way.Well its not.Your not,and some of you need to open your eyes to that.
We all need to watch what goes on in our own house before condemning somebody else for what goes on in their house.
If we all strive to do the best we can,and be the best we can be,then you would be amazed at how it will affect other people.
So how about if we concentrate on cleaning up our own backyards before we start cleaning everybody elses.
I catch a lot of fish,I catch them a lot of different ways,and if you catch them in a way different than I do.And you feel good about it.Congratulations.
Take that last paragraph however you like.I know what I mean by it,a lot of people will speculate on what I mean by it,Some will think they know what I mean by it,but as far as I know,I havent fished with any of you,so,until we fish together,and you know how I handle myself on the river,its all speculation.
I just try really hard not to judge somebody else,and hope that they try really hard not to judge me.
Now lets all quit *****in at each other and go rip some lips.

Just a thought here, is he helping the fishery any by releasing a snagged fish that is probably pretty beat by the time it is landed, and then catching a non snagged one to fill his limit?

Little ZoZo,I've been doing good,lifes good, fishins great,Ive landed more fish than I can count the last couple months,and also released more than I can count during that time.
Thats why I havent been posting on here much lately.
The only drawback has been that my arm is killing me,because of it.and I'm to stubborn to give it up long enough to let it get better.

I'm thinkin about hitting the sturgeon for awhile to give it a little break,before picking on the steelhead.
I hate to make choices like that.

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: HntnFsh ]

thats definately something to ponder over...a snagged fish released, possibly to die from its wound never to spawn, and another taken legally home for dinner...or just taking that first fish.

one fish or two fish that will never have a chance to spawn...

good question

This itself brings up an interesting point.
This was brought up awhile ago by someone. They'd seen some guys fishing a hole just stacked with fish and kept foul hooking them. They'd get the foulhooked ones in, release them and keep fishing for their "legal limit". Now what did more harm to this run? It would have been far healthier to keep their first 2 or 3(or whatever the limit is) rather than keep wearing these other fish out.

Now there are some highly respected, holier than thou people around here that condemn others for boating and drinking but he's always going on about his adult beverages at the takeout. Now this I have a real problem with, I'd rather have your drunk ass on the river where it isn't on the road with my wife and daughter.
All this proves is that no one is perfect and people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!!!!

Fishin Fool, the survival rates of snagged fish released are likely to be higher than fish C&R'd that were hooked deeply. The rates of survival of snagged fish are fairly good. I would really think that snagged fish release rate of survival would be higher than the rate of such a fisher catching a legal one to take from the river; by a long shot in most cases. So yes, my opinion would be that he is doing the fishery more good by releasing snagged fish in the long run. Would you advocate a new rule for fisher's to keep the first one or two fish they caught, regardless of whether snagged or not, and have to quit fishing with that one or two fish limit? Some have suggested that as an alternative. If you agree with that, by what means would you commend that as a better fish management method? I would certainly disdain having to keep snagged fish.

Hntnfsh, I agree with a lot of the principle in your latest post just above. But one place I disagree: we aren't trying to clean up anyone else's house. We are trying to clean up our backyard. In this case 'our backyard' is all the public rivers and the fishing within them.

I also am starting to see what some guys have said about trying to change snagging mindset - it's kinda like farting in a whirlwind, and doesn't get ya far. ... Out.

I've seen alot of post stating that one snagged fish doesn't make any difference on a fishery. I have to strongly disagree with that position. If everybody thought this way then the number of snagged fish bonked would significantly increase. I don't understand how people think that they don't make an impact with their actions.

As far as snagging goes, if there is enough fish stacked in a hole to snag them, is it unreasonable to think that you can getafew to bite in the course of the day? I have only fished for about 10 years and by no means am I an expert, but in my experience getting a fish to bite is anything but impossible.

There are many problems when it comes to the snagging of fish and if your not part of the solution than your part of the problem. Salmon and Steelhead are a valuabel resource and we are very lucky to have the privaledge of fishing for them. If we are to continue to have strong runs of salmon in the future we must act respectful to the environment and the salmon themselves. I do not feel that snagging of any kind should be accepted or justified.

Just my opinion on the whole issue

FFF

I'm not condemning you Dave but your reasoning makes no sense. You ask what the difference is between taking you snagged limit and everyone else taking their legally hooked limit. As far as numbers go you have a point but if everyone took this approach and the scenes that are typical during the fall runs on Eagle Creek and the Washougal would become the norm or as RT put it total chaos.
I was out of work during the Reagan years and have eaten welfare cheese and even used food stamps but never felt compelled to break any laws. The point is that someone even more destitute than you are can still get food
for his family so the easy meal concept is groundless. I am wondering what is it you are after Dave? Do you merely want to confess or are you looking for justification? If the majority of people said it's okay to keep a snagged fish would you then be okay with it and feel better about it? In the end though I'm afraid I would have to turn you in if I saw you keep a snagged fish Dave...sorry you not above the law.

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: STEWY ]

Somehow the legitmate need to feed one's family should be more closely aligned with finding a decent job -- even if you have to move to a new city -- rather than reduce the situation to the justification of snagging salmon. I find it hard to believe how very low we have fallen in our effort to justify catching and killing fish by essentially hanging the guilt for this bazarre behavior on our kids.
If a fishery is open it is simple: you catch the fish in question legally, take them home and eat them. If not you don't fish.

Les Johnson

Interestingly enough, Grant McComie (sp?) had an article on tv tonight about game poaching and snagging. The ODFW agent quoted on the show said that it just comes down to greed. That pretty much says it all. A very basic human trait, unchecked and without regard for the rules that society applies to the taking of fish and game.

I suppose that if and/or when you get busted, you can plead hardship. You can explain to your wife and kids why your fishing gear was confiscated and the family's bank account has been evicerated to pay your fines.

Keeping snagged fish is illegal and in disregard for the rules. I for one am doing my part by releasing any snagged fish. I hope most of you do the same.

Right on RT.
I have nothing against you Dave.I would fish with you.I strongly disagree with you,though.
Look,you make decent money.It's hard for me to sympathize with you being stuck in a house that is too big.Rent a room or sell?
You went sportfishing,not snagging for food,remember?Few people,if any,starve to death in this country especially with your income.

I don't claim to be perfect and make my share of mistakes,I don't look down my nose on anybody.I can usually admit my mistakes to myself,though.

This is a no brainer,folks.It's illegal and is illegal for a good reason.

For Dave,and those who want to carry the snagger banner,to an even greater extreme than Dave,the first step is to admit,to yourself,that you are wrong .The second is to release that illegal fish.It won't hurt and you'll probably feel pretty good about it.

I'm done with this thread. My intent was to cause people to think and, largely, I believe that I was successful with those who were able to do such.

Some of the debate was good, some was not. Many things that were said surprised me, but the sources usually did not so go figure. Knowing what I know about some of them makes their comments that much more...interesting.

For those who supported the spirit of the debate, whether you agreed with me or not, thank you. It was good reading.