Saw on KOMO news last night that Gov. Locke budget proposal includes the closure of 3 state hatcheries. I know it's preliminary but does anyone have the inside word on what hatcheries might get axed?

Hope it's nothing related to steelhead.

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Eric ]

The listed hatcheries in his budget proposal are McAllister Creek, Naselle and Sol Duc.

In addition Locke's general budget proposal does have some fee increases, including hunting and fishing licenses. Increases two-day recreational fishing and shellfish license fees to levels comparable to neighboring states and Canadian provinces. $1 million General Fund State, and $1 million State Wildlife Account in new revenue.

He also proposes not filling vacant positions in the Department of Fish and Wildlife's enforcement program

Provide less, charge more for it. Good one Gary.

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: seacat ]

chalk up another good reason for CnR

I cant see them closing McCallister isn't that one netted pretty heavy...

Check out: www.wa.gov/wdfw/pubaffrs/business/budgetreduction.htm

Bob D

Thanks Bob. Very informative page.

Check out the part about the catch card mailings. Everyone needs to send in the cards or else we get screwed even more.
Looks like they will cost us a buck a piece too from what I read.

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: seacat ]

Hey people, don't blame Gary on this one.

All you need to do is go back from out last election to a few years ago. How many state initiatives did we pass restricting the growth of our goverment? How many state initiatives did we pass that reduced taxation? You all can thanks the likes of Initiative 601, 604, and that fine Tim Eyman fellow.

Basically, we voted not to pay for anything and to cut everything.

Add in a local economy that is in the tank, and what do you honestly expect? The budget had to be cut. What would you cut?????

I'm one of those fine people that are directly effected by all of this. Higher Ed will be cut by 5%, no raises for us, *and* they will make us pay more out of pocket for health insurance. Nice.

Parker - Just vote NO to our state initiatives. Haven't seen a good one yet.

Good post Parker I agree
If they close McCallister ,I'm sure the Nisqually's will scream about lost revenue's and we the Tax payers will again provide compensation.....Oh Brother...not again

My wife is a Educational assist......she' still waiting for the raise WE tax payer voted in.

last fall I ran into Gary and Mona in Cotsco,I'm sure he'll remember me,He didn't have answers then .....I doubt He has them now ..........Os

Parker hit the nail on the head. We can thank the frat-boy watch salesman from Everett and all the lemmings that follow him for cuts like this.

B.

Yeah, whatever you do don't blame the Governor... He has to spend all that money on social programs. All those welfare and support entitlement programs must stay in place to support those who won't work. Our taxes should go to those who cannot afford their own booze and cigarettes. Yeah, it's Tim Eyeman's fault.

Merry Christmas...oops, I hope I did not offend anyone what I meant to say was Happy Holidays

McAllister's been closed before and probably will be again. The problem with McAllister is that it was built in the wrong place. It was supposed to be built nearer the springs but they couldn't get the land to build up there(turf wars with the city) so they were forced to build it at it's present location.The fish health guys said it shouldn't be built at all then because the lower creek suffers from nanophyetes, a parasite that wrecks havoc on the rearing ability of the hatchery. Not to mention that when it rains hard a ton of cow poop ends up in the ponds.For the past few years nanophyetes has hit it hard because of low water flow in the creek,(drought and the city taking more water from the springs) and that's the main reason i think they want to shut it down.The parasite problems have always meant the hatchery could never raise as many fish as they could because they've had to lower densities in the ponds to deal with the parasites and could never hold any fish over the summer for the yearling program.It will be a bummer if it closes ,though, clear creek is pumping out a lot of fish now .The nisqually's might throw some money McAllister's way...you never know.There is a lot of co-op between McAllister and Clear Creek.

OK Parker, I don't know you but I think that you're a good guy and I'll rephrase my appreciation for Gary...

"Provide less, charge more for it. Good one Gary" should have read "Provide less, charge more for it. Thanks Gary, you're doing a great job"

I know it's a no-win situation for him, but that's part of being an elected official. Gotta take the criticism with the praise.

Would I make different choices given the decision and the ability to do so? Sure I would, and so would you. It's a tough job no doubt. We'll see how it all shakes out in the Legislature. That's where the real debate begins anyway.

I can empathise with you, I didn't get a raise this year either and I've always had to pay for my families health care. Not complainin' though, just recognizing that that's the world we live in.

Peace...

IMHO, the real answer lies with an independent audit of state spending, which we know will never happen in our lifetimes.

It's time for some bottom-line accountability in Olympia.

Accountability in OlyTown??

Yer killing me, 4S!

I know Dan, but I can dream... Can't I?

Heck there is enough people in Forks on welfare to support all three of those hatcheries. I personnally dont think how they can close them. Way to much revenue brought in from them. Especially the Sol Duc. Forks thrives off of that fishery in the summer and so do I.

JUST THINK IF THE STATE USED OUR SPORT DOLLARS FOR ENHANCEMENT AND ENFORCEMENT OF "OUR" HATCHERY FISH INSTEAD OF CHUCKING IT ALL INTO THE GENERAL BUDGET, WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO SHUT DOWN ANY HATCHERIES! OUR TAX DOLLARS WELL SPENT AGAIN, JUST LIKE THE LOTTERY PROCEEDS!

Liver,

Ahhh, yes. The "General Fund". That friggin' thing has been used to steer more money toward pork projects than any legislation possibly could. You license dollars (not to mention sales tax revenue derived from sporting goods sales and services) go in, and a few meager scraps come out. That is what breeds waste, as funds collected by a certain agency are NOT used for future funding of that agency, or branch or gov't. The state will lose 10 dollars over the next decade to save 1 dollar today.

Crap, 4S, we're back to that accountability thing again. Still dreaming..............

First of all this is just a "PROPOSED" budget. The chances are still very good for some of these items to be changed. Make some noise with local legislators if you want changes.

As far as blaming the passed intiatives, I think that my be only partially true. what is happening is more of the governor saying FU to the intiatives and the people and spending how he wants anyway. Sure you can blame the initiative, but I say blame Locke for not listening and say FU to him and vote him and the legislators out if this kind of crap goes through. There is plenty of money if they make the choices that the majority of voters want them to make.

Folks, I see a lot of government bashing going in here, and I just want to ask a couple of questions.

Out of the folks that you have met in your life, how many would you say, as a percentage of the population, are good, hard working honest folks?

Given that the government has 10's of thousands of people working for it, is it reasonable to expect that the percentage of honest, hard working folks in it is somewhere close to what you see in normal life?

If that is the case, is it reasonable to expect that they are, on average, trying to do the best job they know how, with what they've got?

And if, we think that they are going stark raving mad, is it possible that, in at least some cases, maybe we don't know all the information yet, and maybe they are behaving rationally on the fact set that is front of them?

Just asking.


I'm not saying that the folks working for the state are the sharpest knives in the drawer. If they were, they'd probably be pulling down six figures working in industry somewhere. But I think a lot of them, most of the ones I've met over my life, are trying to do right, as they know it and see it.

Like most of the rest of us.

It's Christmas. Let's think good thoughts about each other, if only for a while.

Three fish to the boat today (have to make this sort of a fishing post).

Well this will go over like a "lead ballon" but living in a state that has refused to go from a "sales tax", "property tax", "Sin tax".......and has stayed away from a "state income tax", we are now getting just what we deserve. Many more years of the same, increases in all the above plus, gas, license fees, state park closures, hatchery closures(going to wild stocks), and on and on.

We should be thankful that now there are limits on some of their tax abilities.


"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

OK, I'm prepared to hop into the fray.

First off Parker, I've read tons of your posts, and just from reading them I know that you know way more about fishing than I do. I appreciate your willingness to share good info. But on this one I have to disagree.....

It's not fair to put the blame on Tim E. or on the initiatives. None of the initiatives that have passed CUT taxes. They cut the rate at which the government can INCREASE our taxes. So, taxes will rise more slowly. Hey, if we can afford to increase the budget for artwork for the Port of Seattle and for the Port of Tacoma, I think we can afford the hatcheries. There are tons of dollars in the state budget for which there is no real scrutiny. Government is no different that private enterprise in that over a period of time without accountability, people will build up empires. In my county we're routinely held hostage on a Medic 1 vote. Not much gets me angrier. They (government leaders) take a necessity and put it on the chopping block because they know we'll vote to keep it. Ever see them put a luxury up for a vote? No. And you'll never get to vote to pass a levy for more artwork for government buildings. And of course, as 4SALT pointed out, this isn't likely to get better without an independant audit of the books.

That is why I've voted YES for most of those initiatives. No accountability.

And yep,.... I blame Gary Locke.

Holy cow, where di that come from?

Fisherdan,

while I understand your frustration, I think it's harder than that. What would you suggest as an item for them to put up to vote? Shall we have a line item vote for each item in the budget? What level of detail shall we go to? Pencils, paper clips? Shall we vote on each individual position held in government, to eliminate waste? How about a vote on each building that they occupy?

I'm not saying this to abuse you, but just to point out how hard it actually would be for a government to truely act in town hall fashion. The problem is just too big to be managed that way, which is why we have representative government. For better or worse, we're supposed to elect people who have the skills to make these decisions. I think one of the reasons we may be having troubles is that in recent years we as a nation have shown a marked aversion to hiring anyone who will take on a tough problem and make us face the hard decision. Government isn't a game of "tastes great, no it's less filling", if you know what I mean...

Ever had a boss who micro-managed you? Didn't know boo about what your job really took to do, but insisted on telling you how to do it? That's what Tim Eyeman is. I believe he neither knows, nor cares, what the state and its people may need, and he isn't interested in finding out. If he wanted to effect useful change, he would run for office, and have a good chance at making it, because of his name recognition. But he won't, because he doesn't really care. When you start bashing politicians, realize that he is one too, and one of the worst sort - the kind that doesn't give a damn what happens to the citizens at large. He's ignorant and powerful - a dangerous combination.

And if I listen to him without doing my homework, so am I.

Sorry, it's late, and I got a little bit into rant mode. Nothing aimed at you, Fisherdan, just frustrated with our little state.

Fish onwards.

I blame Locke and the liberals. Our state budget is over $23 billion. 20 years ago the budget was $6 billion. That's an increase of almost 400%. Has the rate of inflation gone up that high? No. Has the population increased that much? No. It's government waste. By voting in inititives we force the government to better manage their resources. This government takes more and more from the people every year and the people get less and less. Now the city of Seattle is spending millions to install and thousands to maintain 6 self cleaning toilets downtown that only bums will use. Good thinking there! But this state can't really complain. We keep voting in the same group of do nothing democrats. I almost pissed my pants when Ron Sims got reelected. Someday, I may want to own property but in 10 years, only very wealthy people will be able to afford to buy new property in this state.

We can blame Locke, the liberals, the conservatives, the tribes, just anyone at all regarding the budget cuts and I'm talking about hatchery cutbacks and WDF&W budget cuts....or we can do something about it.
We the sportsmen in Washington have never ever established the importance of our monitary contribution to the economy of the state. The commercial fishermen have lobbied to beat hell and have hired expensive lawyers to carry their message to the state legislature and they have almost always carried the day when it comes to allocations and hatchery support.
Sportsmen take a very small percentage of the total catch of salmon and steelhead but still generate an equal amount of dollars for the state general fund as the commercials.
License fees probably need to go up even more than that have and out-of-state fishing licenses and day-use fees should be at least as much as British Columbia charges us to fish the Dean, Sustut or Thompson rivers. I pay $155.00 per year to fish British Columbia for trout, salmon and steelhead.
The WDF&W needs a stable budget that is part of the total Washington State budget and the money needs to be targeted to the Department. The amount should be enough to run all of our programs properly. Sportsmen should pay their own way for fishing and hunting. We simply have to address this issue in the near future and show bureaucrats that our stake in the state ecomony is very important and that cutting it is penny-wise and pound-foolish.
Whining isn't going to do the job. It takes effort and financial support to make our point in Olympia.
It is OK to think about where we are going to fish next weekend, but we need to be thinking about where we are going to be fishing in five or ten years. With the projected increase in population stacked against the projected loss of habitat, we will never again see the "good ol' days". We can however make it as good as it can be and that requires sacrifice such as catch and release of wild steelhead to ensure their future, increasing license fees substantially, making sure that all river access properties owned by the WDF&W are utilized (and they aren't now), buying your groceries and lunch and gasoline at the places where you fish. It all adds up to establishing the importance of sportfishing to the people and the economy. If we accomplish this you can bet that the state bureaucrats won't be whacking away at the corners of the WDF&W budget.

Les Johnson

Les is right this is not a liberal or conserative political issue because cuts to the hatcheries and fish&game come from both sides. If we sportsmen dont put up a real fight like every other interest group does in Olympia when it comes to cutting funds to their causes then we will not put a stop to the cuts of hatcheries and the fish&game department. "He who screams the loudest will be cut the least".

As a sportsman you got to write letters to your state reps letting them know how you feel and you got to get as many of your fishing and hunting friends to do the same. It's not that much of a hassle to do so , it only takes 5 or 10 minutes to do it. Is that so bad when you consider what could happen if you don't.

It's time now for all the top hunting and fishing organizations statewide to come together and form some type of coalition and get a lobbiest for Olympia. What, there are maybe 150 thousand hunters and fishermen in Washington State that sure is a lot more people to fight for the cause than the handful of people that fight for no cuts in the fine arts budget. Believe me we can be one of the strongest groups on the hill if we can just put it togther. It's time for a pow wow of all groups from the WSC, TU, PSA, Elk hunters of Washington, DU and all other groups to get it together. My bigest question is what group will take the lead in getting us all together.
One more thing. Write a letter to your area fish & game commisioner and tell him or her you appreciate the hard work they have been doing. We may not always agree with them but they put a lot of hours in on our behalf. If we are not careful there are people in olympia that want to do away with their existance. If that happens then big state goverment, (both republican & democrats), will make the laws for us sportsmen and they can really make cuts then.
Thanks
Land Tuna.

OK, how about we at least take a minute or two to send an email to our respective representatives to let them know how we feel about these budget cuts. Isn't that what representative government is all about? In the big picture, these hatcherys are a drop in the bucket.

So if we get away from the old liberals vs. conservatives issue and let our reps know how we feel we might be able to save them. Check the link below to find out who your rep is and drop them a note.

http://www.leg.wa.gov/wsladm/default.htm

Good fishing,
Bruce

Pat Graham,

A lemming is someone who goes into the voting booth and only punches nothing but the D's or the R's. A good example of that in G.H. and Pacific counties is most voters only punch the D's and look what the liberal D's have done to all the job's and tax revenue they would have created in the last 15 years. Until people change their closed minded approach in the voters booth we the people will never control our government. Vote for the best person for the job. Don't vote for someone just because he is a Republican or a Democrat. By the way I'm none partisan.

If we all join together and not purchase a new license April 1st and make it public, get some press I think we can have an impact showing the people in Olympia we are damm mad and we aren't going to take it anymore. That might have more of an impact than a lobbyist can buy especially if people stop voting like lemmings.

Thanks B Gray for the web site to our state reps. Not only write a letter to your own area reps both state Senate and House but to the reps sitting on the Natural resources committie. If you click on the web site that B Gray provided you will find the e-mail addresses and mailing addresses for all reps. Spend a little time and let these people that serve us know how you feel about hatchery cuts and how F&G law enforcement is way under staffed. Also let them know that we don't want our reps with political self interests making F&G policy like they did in the late 80's which was a disaster and over turned by referendum 45 in 1995. E-mail rep Jim Buck first as he is going to make a sorry attempt to put F&G policy making back in the hands of republicans and democrats instead of the F&G commission.
NATURAL RESOURCES STATE SENATE; Ken Jacobsen, Harriet Spanel, Bob Oke, Dow Constantine, James Hargrove, Dan McDonald, Bob Morton Sid Snyder, Val Stevens.
NATURAL RESOURCES STATE HOUSE; Mark Doumit, Bob Sump, Kirk Pearson, Phil Rockefeller, *Jim Buck*, Jeanne Edwards,William Erickmeyer, Doug Erickson, Brock Jackley, Ed Murray and John Pennington.

There are a lot of us that visit Bobs site if we all take some time at lunch today or at home this evening and contact these servents we might start making a difference for the intrests of sportsmen and women.
Thanks
Land Tuna.

The politicians do a wonderful job on spinning the facts and perceptions on the initiatives. As fisherdan said, they were limits on increases- not cuts. Has anyone experienced property tax decreases, or for that matter, increases at a rate less than perceived inflation?
What the cuts should be are cuts to proposed spending increases from agency proposals, and shouldn't reduce existing services.

Stadle and Bruce Gray are right about the strong need for all of us to write your state reps. Tell them you want your licence fees, fishing tackle taxes, and general taxes used for funding properly run hatcheries (cleaned of diseases, all smolts finclipped, and using broodstock from rivers for progeny to be planted in same rivers). Don't wait until someone like Bob makes it easy for you to sign a form letter. Get after this in big numbers if you want to protect your fishing opportunity. If fishermen appathy and laziness aren't overcome, we lose! Les Johnson and Aunty M have good posts along these lines also.

Drifter, in our ANWS meeting this evening we had a ODFW rep there that informed us of likely significant cuts in hatchery funding; closing some of them. And we have income taxes in Oregon. It's about the general fund level and how it is going to be used. Revenue is down due to the recession. Makes it important to write and speak out to our state reps to get our fair share of whatever funding is there in any given year. Hatcheries are due to close to keep some unecessary things afloat (and the usual 'pork' Dan S. refered to). Are you going to sit around and whine and lose, or are you going to take a half hour and write some reps?

RT

With all the talk about spending accountability realize it's a double-edged sword.Everyone has demanded thatWDFW get the most bang for the buck out of their money so a few years ago they started doing hatchery assesments,in addition to other assesments, i.e. which hatcheries cost a lot to run compared to what they contribute? Naselle,Sol Duc and McAllister fell into that catagory;they cost a lot to run compared to what they kick out in terms of production and return rates. If you fish the runs they contribute to it's a big deal but for the entire hatchery budget they're forced to make some tough budget choices and have to justify spending money on hatcheries that cost a lot to run compared to others. So when it comes down to the axe falling they unfortunately have their necks sticking out.You can make some noise and try to keep them funded but also have to realize that the extra money it takes to run them may take money away from spending on other hatcheries. The funding isn't infinite unfortunately and with everyone demanding that WDFW run itself more like a business they end up doing stuff like this.

WDF&W should receive enough funding to deal with all the requirements needed to ensure that sportsmen have the best possible experience for the buck. Contantly hacking programs is not the way to accomplish this. WDF&W cuts programs because the legislature has other priorities, some of which are critical and others that are boondoggles of the first order.
Don't ever believe that there is not enough money floating around Olympia to properly fund the WDF&W. Certainly something will have to give in order for the WDF&W to get. That is the name of the political game.
We do need to rally the troops in order to support WDF&W whether we sling bait, hardware or flies over our favorite steelhead waters. We still have to keep an eye on WDF&W however.
Right now there is a movement to place a state legislature oversight committee in charge of the Fish and Wildlife Commission. We sure don't need even further meddling and niggling from the legislature. This issue requires attention now and is being examined by several advocacy groups including the Wild Steelhead Coalition.
Les Johnson