Would someone explain to me the logic of killing a wild steelhead. I must be missing something because it escapes me. Claims of 10% mortality rate from catch and release? Even if that number were close to being real would that justify it? "Oh well might as well kill it because it MIGHT die anyway" Geez

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: BIG STEW ]

The problem with catch and release is all the dummies that mishandle the fish. I went on a guided trip once,after neting the fish every one had to hanle the fish take pictures of it. one 18# hen was gill hooked they riped the hook out and set it free, I wanted to cry. that trip pissed me off!!!

Desertdrifter,
I agree with you that would make me angry as well and I'd be posting that guides name all over the place and recommending people NOT hire him.

1. never net fish you intend to release
2. no barbs, no bait and no trebles
3. never remove the fish from the water
4. have the camera ready before landing the fish it's life is more valueable than your glory shot
this is common sence

On the other hand even that 18lb hen that you described still has more of a chance of spawning that one hit on the head with a stick

If you hook {truly hook} a Native in the gills it will die, because their blood will not clot. Is this "waste of game fish" {Harvest Rules} Or do you keep it, write it down and if you get busted let the judge decide? What would you do?

uh oh G-man, now you did it, your gonna wake up the elitists...i hope the bashing doesn't get to bad...maybe they will keep in mind we are still in the holiday season...i hope

KSR, you seem to have strange perspective on G-MANS thoughts In my opinion your input could be viewed as an attempt to bait a few fish into taking a sniff I can almost guaranty that your quarry will sniff out the bad bait like week old sandshrimp

Great subject BS and input guys! Anyone would come away effected by both releasing a sure mortality or keeping that mortally wounded fish. Is there a wrong or right? Got me!

FJ...out.

Being educated about proper handling of fish is the key! The info that Rob Allen posted was great! I also like his logic too. A mishandled fish STILL has a better chance of survival than one that is clubbed on the head.Unfortunately too many TV anglers exhibit poor fish handling. Even some of the local guys from years past did not handle released fish very well.

my intent was to cut it off before it started, in a way...looks like it worked, and thats a good thing.

it seems like anyone who hints at the mere mention of intentionally killing a wild steelhead for whatever reason starts a few of the "locals" into bashing...it seems like some on this board are not receptive to an open constructive debate on this subject.

this topic is a good post as far as im concerned. i would like to hear more opinions about it, in a constructive way of course.

make me out to be the bad guy if you want, but i speak the truth...

peace out, brother

I disagree with Rob on not netting fish that you intend to release. While poorly handled netting can be hard on a fish, I think you can get a fish to hand much more quickly if you net it than if you beach it, and further, if you're in a boat, you really have no choice. If you can get the fish to hand more quickly, the fish suffers less stress, and is more likely to survive.

So what is a poorly handled netted fish? One that you net, bring into the boat, and let thrash around on the bottom of the boat for 3 minutes while you remove the hook, disentangle your plug before releasing the fish, etc. Keep the fish over the side of the boat, gills and mouth in the water, head upstream, while you unhook it, and then release it before you worry about your gear. If I see am intact adipose fin, that fish never touches the floor of my boat.

The objection will be made that a net removes skin mucous (sp) causing the fish to be at risk. The reading I have done from various sources indicates that this is not a risk to the fish, and that our concerns about removing slime hurting the fish are an old wive's tail. I can't name the source, but I read it somewhere, and my recollection is that the source was a fish biologist type. I could definitely be wrong here.

I firmly believe that netting fish is better for the fish than beaching the fish, but am open to contrary arguments.

A fish hooked in the gills should live if you cut the line. dont net a fish you dont want to keep.reach over the side of the boat and releas it. if the hook is hard to get out again cut the line!!

The main problem is that most people fishing look at the regulations and if it is legal to keep one, then they do it. Majority don't know anything about diminishing runs etc. They are busy with their works and family and ... Just because we surf the net and follow salmon/steelhead related issues don't assume others do as well. If you are for native release, the ultimate solution is to get it into the regs and then enforce it. I would not bash anyone who keeps a fish if it is legal to do so.

If a wild steelhead is deeply bait hooked in the gills and bleeding heavily it has a higher chance to die before spawning. So if it's legal to keep it in a river with a reasonably healthy run you could consider keeping it without much basis for guilt. But don't keep fished hooked in this manner if it's illegal to keep native fish. That's because it would open it up for fishers to just say their bonked nate was bleeding and almost dead, even if the fish was just fine for release. ...

Two things can be done to minimize this occurance. One is not to use diver and bait combos when numbers of nates are in the river. The other thing is to play them in quickly, yet without horsing them in, and just cut the leader off. Some of those gill hooked fish may spawn before they die.

When in doubt, which is the majority of cases, release nates. When regulated to do so, always release them regardless of condition. My 0.02.

RT

Guys, every fish I have ever caught, that was hooked in the gills bled. I've released Nates with a sick feeling in my gut because I know that they are bleeding and their DEAD. Knowing this, did I break the "Intentionally waste Game fish Law?" Knowing, if I release this fish it's wasted, or do I keep it? Cutting the hook off on a bleeding fish does nothing to save it. Even a fish with a hook in it's tongue is dead. What would you do?

G-MAN,

My understanding is that in WA if you hook a fish that is illegal to keep you have to release it no matter what even if it is cut in half. If you are doing CNR and you hook a fish that is bleeding/dying and it is a legal fish to keep then you have to keep it and count it towards your daily limit and you can not release that fish.

G-man,

A steelhead hooked in the gills has a high chance of dying, but don't assume they all do. Some fish that are hooked in the gills and bleeding like a stuck pig when released do survive. As part of a study years ago, a steelhead hooked on a barbed treble on the Snake River was bleeding when boated, tagged, and released. That fish showed up at the hatchery many weeks later, ready to spawn. As others have indicated, bonking a fish results in zero % survival. The release of fish in poor condition results in a higher % survival, but much less than 100%. Since a released fish has some chance of survival, even if as little as 1%, there is no wastage of gamefish violation.

Silver Hilton,

As for netting and beaching, neither does the fish any favors. I'm referring specifically to the most common nets I see in boats on the rivers. These are made of knotted polypropolene webbing. They cut through the slime layer and then scrap a lot of scales off. The scale loss leaves the fish's skin open to infection, which will increase the mortality rate by some amount. I don't know how much. The knottless nylon or polyester webbing nets are very much gentler on fish, and I do wish they were more readily available to anglers, as they do facilitate a more rapid handling and release of fish.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

G-MAN,

What basis do you use to declare that all gill and tongue hooked steelhead are "DEAD"? Floating along not moving? Likely could die alright, but some rest that way and still recover. I have talked to fish bios and read the definitive study by the ODFW, under observation by the NMFS, of their extensive 2 year C&R survival rate study in which thousands of fish were caught and released in every manner (both correctly and abusively) and tagged as such. It proved a good precent of the gill hooked fish with the leader cut off not only survived, they swam over the Willamette Falls fish ladders and then swam another 100+ miles to salmon/steelhead fish hatcheries. ... [For more study info details or for a copy of the study, call the Clackamas office of the ODFW at 503-657-2000 - preferable to ask for manager Steve King, or Craig Foster].

Also, releasing a fish that might die does not fit the "Intentionally waste Game fish Law?". For even the released ones that do die it has been proven in recent years that their carasses are a vital benefit to the entire river eco-system - particularly in helping increase the survival rate of native fish fry/smolts!

As for your question, "What would you do?", read my post just above your last post there and find a good suggestion for your dilema. Thanks.

RT

Edit: See that KSR? The whole thread still has no bashing. Quite civil in fact. Cool. >
And Salmo, I was typing my reply here as you were posting yours, so didn't see if before hand. Thanks for your input. - Steve

[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: RT ]

yes RT, that is cool!!! and many good points brought up too...

I agree that if you release a bleeding fish it has more than zero percent (as oppose to keeping it) chance of surviving, however, in WA Statewide General Freshwater Rules it is stated that "If any fish has swallowed the hook or is hooked in the gill, eye, or tongue, it should be kept if legal to do so".

Based on this rule, I wonder if you release a fish that was hooked in the gill or eye or tongue, which we all agree is better than killing it, can you get in trouble if the game warden catches you? Any ideas?

UFK, I don't have the regs handy, but your quote has the word "should" in it. Given that, I seriously doubt anyone who uses proper release methods for a hook injured fish would get in any trouble at all; even in the event it should float back up top again (read above about floating fish that sometimes rest and revive, while appearing to be dying). These fish are tougher and more resilient than many think they are.

Great discussion guys. I totally agree with RT. I wouldn't keep one either. Thanks for the info on the study on injured and released fish. I was told differant, probley by someone who can't even spell STUDY. It's amazing how much information and teaching is available in these forums. Thanks. Did I spell probley correct?

First of all..Peace to all....second great discussion.

What to do with a bleeding nate is part of a larger single issue facing any fisherman/hunter.
You are faced with one of the greatest moral dilemna's of your sport. You didn't intend or want this result but now your stuck with it....what to do?

If legal to keep the fish then the choice may be easier...but if closed to nate killing then your decision needs to take into account a fine(in WA) up to $500, possible confiscication of your gear and yes even boats and vehicles. Then wording in the WA reg's using "should"is intended to encourage keeping a bleeding fish if "legal to do so." I think that's pretty clear....wasting fish would only apply if you actually bonked the fish. If you release a bleeder even where legal to keep you would not be in violation....that law is intended for people who actually kill fish then waste it by leaving it on the bank. You see this a lot where high grading occurs.

Personally I would have a difficult time judging a persons moral choice of what to do with the bleeding nate. Myself I'd release it as I know that it would at the very least contribute to the ecosystem. Probably stop fishing for the day to reflect on my actions also.

Just my notions...again peace and congrats on a great discussion.

Gooose

Here's a question for all of you.. How many of you have actually seen a healthy dead steelhead in the river? I know I've put thousands and thousands of hours on the river and released more fish than most will hook in a lifetime and on very few occasions have I seen a dead steelhead in a river that's colder than 52 degrees. So if it's true that a gill hooked fish will die then where are they and how come you don't see them dead in the river system?

Here's a classic example. James and I were fishing the EF last year and he landed a 6 pound chrome bright native that was bleeding bad, literally a plume with every breath . So we worked with her and she was having a real tough time, and kept rolling over. While james was working her I noticed a small side pool that was blocked off from the river and told james to put her in there. Well he worked with her in there for about 3 more minutes and she slowly swam off into the blocked off pool. We proceeded to fish downriver about another 2 hours. When we got back, guess what, a fish that had bled more than a head cut on a human was fully active and ripping around the little pool. We proceeded to unblock the side pool and she swam back out into the river unharmed.. All the bleeding had stopped and she seemed to be in perfect condition.
Explain that one!!
Keith

1 thing to consider though steelheader1, that fish probably wasn't fighting much current, I would have to think that fish might bleed out if it had to fight the current, there aren't always pools like you mentioned to revive a fish in.

I gotta agree with Keith. In all the hours I've spent on the rivers, and I've spent many, I have seen VERY few dead steelhead. That's not to say it doesn't occur and the carcasses just aren't around for long, but it sure as hell isn't happening as regularly as some people claim.

AKKings,
Your correct about it not having much current to fight, but there is lots of slow water in any river whether it's the shoreline or tailouts... And another thing, moving water has more oxygen than slack or dead water, and if anything more oxygen will help these fish revive themselves.

Where you have the real problem with mortality rate is in warmer water, water that is 58-60+ degrees. That's when I beleive these "bleeders and extremely worn out fish" die, and even then I've still seen very, very few on the river dead...

Or how about this, how many fish have you caught with serious sea lion bite marks. I've banked fish that you could literally see there guts hanging out through a 2-3" cut across their belly, one's that had about a 1/4 or there tail left after it being bit off by a sea lion. Or have you ever been up to a falls that steelhead are trying to jump and watch them go airborne about 5-6 ft right into a rock wall head first. Give's you a little more respect for these fish, they're tougher than you think...
Keith

[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: stlhdr1 ]