Since we have got a couple differnt discussions taking place regarding wild steelhead release mortality rates that occur due to release of steelhead, I was wondering what everyone's opinion of a statewide ban of barbless hooks in our rivers.

Studies have shown that barbed hooks is one the biggest factors whether a steelhead lives or dies upon release. Plus barbed hooks aide in the releaseing of juvenille salmonids and other fishes such as Cutthroat Trout and Bull Trout.

We have had barbless hooks for saltwater salmon for years now with very little complaint plus BC rivers are all barbless and I have heard few complaints from up North.

I would be all in support of it...opinions???

Ryan, barbless hooks work for me!

I also noticed that your job has you reaching celeb status with those northern fishing reports.
We are not worthy :p

FJ...out.

ive always pinched down the barbs on all my hooks, makes it a lot easier to release obviously, but i notice that the barbless hook gets a full tight penetration, where as a barbed hook can tear a hole larger than the hook wire, and given some slack line can let the hook slide out in some situations.

Ryan,

One step at a time partner. Release the natives state wide, barbless hooks, then no bait, ... Locals may think you are a fly fisherman and come after you you may need a bodyguard. How about RT?

Just kidding , it is a good idea but I think it is ahead of its time. We need to educate a lot more people. I fish barbless a lot of times.

I would like to see mandatory barbless hooks in steelhead rivers from Jan. 15th to April 15th. (Gee, that latter date sounds familiar). And I would like to see voluntary barbless hooks whenever a good number of steelie nates are present.

* I only bodyguard for women.

Barbless works for me........just completing a great salmon season. Sure made the release of fish easy. Would be OK with me if 100% of the plugs, spinners, and other lures were single hook, right from the manufactures. Let them package their products ready to fish. Pisses me off that with many spinners and plugs, I must "cut the hooks off" and install a single hook to be legal.

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

I think barbless is a great way to go, I can't say I always pinch the barbs but if I am fishing where I know I will have to release the majority of my fish I will. Last spring we started pnching the barbs on our kwikfish because it made it a whole lot easier to release all those native springers. Was easier on the fish sinch the hooks came out faster and the fish was then back on it's way.

I started going to single barbless on my salmon plugs reluctantly this year. After a fall season where we had something like 50 hookups, I found that we hooked just as many, if not more of the strikes, and lost no fish. That's right, no fish lost after the initial hookup.

I have used barbless hooks for flies for years. It is my belief that if the angler is at all skilled in fighting fish, there is very little loss if fish due to barbless use.

So we could convert over the use of barbless hooks tomorrow without complaint from me. Well, maybe a little complaint, as I change over the rest of the dozens of plugs I own.

Barbless - sure. Single barbless, no way.

Single barbless for bait would be fine, but I personally feel a barbless siwash will do much more damage to a fish then a barbless trebble.

Of all the salmon and steelhead I've caught this year on barbed trebble hooked plugs, *none* have been hooked deep. I see no reason for the single barbless rule when it comes to floating lures.

I have to agree with UltimateFeashKacher on this one! What's next, a line test limit? No more lead? No more bait cures. No more bait? No more paint on jigs or lures? New hook sizes? Where does it all end? After all, are we not fishermen? Yes, we can by choice, choose to bend our barbs down, but why make it another stupid law? Isn't it time we focus on the reel fish killers, i.e. dams, gill nets, trawlers, pollution, other protected predators, and disease?

All of these problems affect the survivability of fish long before the "hook" takes its toll! The secret to recovering wild steelhead is not(my opinion)in the use of the "hook", it's in removal of the damn dams! Look around guys, every ditch around every roadway runs right into some little river or creek. What do you think that does for fish? What next, ban all cars that drip oil? Plug up all coverts? Is 10/40 weight better then 30 weight oil for fish?

Maybe its time for some of you "ban" guys to post on this bb a list showing us what YOU think "kills" wild steelhead. Put them in priority, and what kills steelhead first, and at what percent they kill the fish. That way, we can all see just what you think effect's the recovery of wild steelhead stocks.

That way every member on this bb can see what really kills fish, and in what order that we should attempt to reduce their effect. It could read something like this; Dams #1 (70%); Gill nets #2 (40%); pollution #3 (46%) Hook mortally #4 (8%), etc.

The hook is an easy one to pick on because you can catch the fish and hold him in a net pen for a couple of hours, or days, and wait for him to die. But what about the other killers, how long to you think it takes for the other "killers" to take their toll?


Now wouldn't that make a good thread! At some point, RT could make a final posting and reveal the final survey. Every one could put their 2 cents worth in and explain how they came up with their numbers. Then, and only then, can we really see what is really going to speed up wild steelhead recovery. Some of you may not like what you'll see, because it may affect your way of life. We can get all this information free!

Who's going to take the first shot?

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook???

AAAhhh, the ongoing barbless hook debate.

We went to all barbless in Oregon until the studied it and found it really made no significant difference.

They have now changed back to barbed hooks. As of the first of the year, they are also doing away with the size limitations for bait hooks.

Again, after limiting us to a larger size their studies determined no significant difference.

I have hooked and landy many, many fish both with and without barbed hooks and have found little difference in the release time.

I have found barbles hooks buried clear into the brain cavity of a fish. That fish will be just as dead as one that a barbed hook was dug out.

My opinion is that until we get a handle on the dams and other fish killing situations that are really taking their toll on fish, we are doing little more than making ourselves feel like we are doing our parts to help fish when we make these little rule changes.

The real solutions lie in restoring and protecting habitat, not barbed vs barbless, not bait vs. artificials and not wild vs. hatchery.

I would personally support barbless hooks in a heartbeat, this is a regulation that would immediately lower hooking mortality rates. I don't understand why folks are against it, look at the C&R areas and seasons, they have selective gear rules, no bait in place. Everyone still catches fish and the type of gear you use is not discriminated against, anglers can still use: floats/jigs,rubber worms, spoons, spinners, plugs, drift bobbers, flies, whatever you want except barbed hooks and bait.

CowlitzFisherman,

Undoubtedly, the things you mention are more detrimental to wild steelhead than barbed hooks. However, since we can't just go out and breach all of the dams, stop logging, and take away the tribes right to net the rivers to death, why not start with something WE CAN DO

Mandatory barbless hook regulations are a good idea. If it were possible to effectively ENFORCE the regulation, it would be a great idea.

As pointed out above, fishing barbless hooks does not significantly reduce the number of fish landed. IMHO it adds a little more challenge to the sport, and reduces, even if just a little bit, the chance of a released fish not surviving.

cowlitzfisherman you forgot the biggest killer of them all... hatcheries!!! or at least outplanting!!!

Like has been said above this isn't the end all cure all to the problem but it is a something we can do as sportsmen to help a little. It doesn't increase the survival rate that much but any increase is a plus. I also agree that it doesn't have to be single barbless, Siwash hooks do a lot of damage from being longer shanked and getting further back in the fish's mouth. I have seen many more fish that have a hook coming through and eye or back into the gills with siwash hooks. you are better off with a barbless treble in my opinion over a siwash if you are going to be releasing fish. I have never noticed a significant increase of lost fish due to barbless, I actully think you get better hookups because there isnt that extra piece of hook that has to penetrate. The hooks slide out a lot better and that makes release easier in my opinion. We turned loose a lot of springers in the columbia last year and once we went to barbless it was a lot quicker and easier. This is a hot issue as always and we will all have different opinions on what is the best way to go.

[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: Firedog ]

So Parker, are you telling us that it takes you the same amount of time to unhook a fish from a single barbless siwash as a barbed treble. I used trebles[barbless] as a trailor hook beach fishing for coho's but found the length of time to release some fish was unexceptable to me so I only use single hooks now.

This old chestnut of who`s to blame for salmonid declines brings out all of the irrational subjective opinions as to the prime culprits. One says logging another native catch others think dams but we have no objective evaluation of causes of decline. Nor are we likely to have such;too many vested intrests prevent an objective assesment.Fisheries and forest managers feel threatened,water managers are in a blue funk and the native peoples defy the white mans logic with dreams of their forebearers.
While its purely opinion one can apply a form of logic to even the subjective. Northern rivers in Canada provide some basis. The fabled Dean River in spite of not having any industrial development or polution nor having any significant logging history and while reasonably inaccesable has suffered virtually the same declines that other steelhead rivers such as the Thompson have experienced. There is only one conclusion one can reach it has to be commercial bycatch.
Coho in northern rivers suffered similar declies and opinion said it was American overfishing. But when commercial fishing was banned four years ago the returns were up by 400 to 500 percent. Again logic would tell you that commercial overfishing by both countries was the culprite.
The move to barbless hooks will help to increase the escapement but barbless is no panacea for preserving fish stocks.
The days of commercial fishing are or should be over.The revenues from tourism and sport fishing will more than replace the loss of commercial fishing revenues. What is needed now is political influence to overcome the tunnelvisioned perceptions of prehistoric politicans.
coot

I'm saying that I'd rather use a barbless trebble than a barbless or barbed siwash. I'm also saying that siwashes will probably do more damage to a fish than a barbless trebble. It's a lot easier for fish to deeply swallow a siwash then it is a trebble hook.

Siwashes are mean, deep penetrating hooks (especially if you use the VISION Siwash! ) You'll probably never see a fish swallow or deeply hooked with a trebble on a plug.

So yes, JG, it takes no more time to unhook a barbless trebble then it does a siwash. Just use a pair of pliars...give a good, sharp and direct yank in the opposite direction of the hook point, and VOILA.

Also, JG, were you using bait on the coho? I have no argument with single barbless for any bait. I was referring to non-baited plugs.

Finally, my comments were directed towards Special's original comment of a state-wide single barbless restriction.

I have no problem with barbless. I just have a problem with the single barbless on floating lures. Barbless trebbles on floating lures would be fine.

[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: parker ]

Ryan, are you suggesting a statewide ban on barb less hooks or did you mean a statewide ban on barbed hooks? Either way I catch fish both ways. When it comes to releasing, the barb less is much easier, especially if using bait.

Coot I tend to agree with you that barb less will help with escapement and possibly mortality. Commerical fisheries will kill more in one pass that the average fisher person could ever kill in a life time with the usage of barbed hooks.

Cowlitzfisherman ditto on what you stated.

4salt: Instead of imposing new laws just getting the ones on the books enforced would be a bonus. If our lawmakers would hire more enforcement agents instead of cutting them back, violaters would spend more time in jail and less time on the water.

Parker,

Your experience is different than mine. I (well, my boat) hooked and caught well over 50 salmon this fall on siwashes. NONE of them were hooked in a manner that caused them permanent harm. Most were hooked in the corner of the jaw. A few were hooked in the roof of the mouth. These were on a mix of kwikfish, wiggle warts, and spoons. All could have been released without harm, and most were.

I haven't been there when your examples were caught, so it's hard to say what this means. However, 50 fish is a statistically significant sample, and so therefore I am unconvinced of your position, that siwash hooks are harmful to the fish.

I fish mostly fairly large hooks. I use 3/0's and 4/0's on Kwikfish, and 1/0 or 2/0's on warts. Of course, all I use are those cheezy Gamakatsu's, so that may make a difference.

I also think that the indirect effect of using single hooks is important. If you use singles, they get tangled in the net less, which makes it easy to quickly release fish. If the goal is to get a healthy fish back in the water, I think this important.