EDITED:

Time to discuss ways to improve the BB demeanor. Give us your feedback on this important subject. Thanks. [Edited - to cut down on repitious stuff - RT].

While this is a serious subject, I think there is always a place for humor here and everywhere. But in this thread and others, if any humor is not obviously so, please indicate so by typing a "jk" (just kidding) after it. ... I will start with a few of my suggestions - 'suggested goals', NOT a call for more rules.

- First, think out what you are going to post, and keep it civil and respectful if at all possible, before clicking on the post icon! These factors are particularly significant for heated issue debates. Suggestions?

- When disagreements become strong and can result in insults and improper arguing techniques, let's start using e-mails between the guys in each other's face to settle things privately. Other suggestions?

- I think it's OK and fun to tease and poke a little fun at people. The important thing is not to creep over the line into subtle or outright improper dissing of people. Most of you know about where that line is, and all of us need to adhere to this guideline to help keep things fun and peaceful.

- We need proper and consistent smilie graemlin usage! Use them for clarification if there could be doubt about the intent of any sentence or post. Conversely, don't use these things to decieve and deflect improper post responsibility - so as to cover your arse when you are actally trying to dis someone.

- I would like to address humor. When it's not obvious, put a 'jk' after it so people know you are kidding; it can prevent offending people, which can escalate into negative posts. ... I also think most of you know many of us guys like to post what I call "boat talk"; which includes some 'off color' jokes of a sexual or other sensitive nature. Most all of what I've seen here and on other BBs I would consider acceptable among what is a majority of adults 18 and over - even with members a little younger than that who often hear less benign stuff at school or on TV. ... Also, sensitive members have the option of not clicking on subjects that are offensive to them! Censure does not change the mindset of the world. Nor does reasonably benign adult humor. However,
this should not be allowed to escalate into raunchy X-rated type of stuff either. Keep reasonable. Opinions of this factor?

- Concerning fishing reports, I agree that keeping less known zipper rivers out of public posts that many fishermen read is a wise and proper thing to do. The old adage of 'tell them how but not where' applies to these few precious places that should be left to be discovered by the individual. But is doesn't apply to better known rivers, or areas that get pressure anyway. There are still many more fishermen that don't read the fishing websites than do read them - so I don't think posting reports affects additional pressure as much as some claim it does. And it is a definite value to be shared. Feedback?

- For those not adept at typing, which include a lot of us, please take a short moment to re-read your message to make spelling and sentence corrections before clicking on the post icon. Not a big deal; it doesn't have to be prefect - but this simple quick task will make the BB more readable and enjoyable for all.

- Try to reduce the size of pictures you post. This not only reduces download time for everyone, it saves using too much site storage space. Otherwise pics enhance fishing websites. Most of us love to see fish and outdoor scenery!

HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYY ... EDIT NOTICE: Here's the seeming early consensus that has emerged below - for those who haven't read it all yet, but may not have enough time to - "many of us may need to be a little less sensitive and reactive, in addition to others needing to be more civil in heated threads. I think those 2 factors are at the core of the solution, and the balance we are looking for via this discussion!" ...

..... There may be other issues needing discussion and improvement. If you think of things where adjustments will enhance this site, please post them here. Thanks people. Fish on and post onward.

Steve

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: RT ]

RT - Would it not be easier for us to just send you our posts and you could edit them so that it would be just the way you want it?
Improper arguing techniques? "jk" when joking? Whoops I hope I have not offended anyone. The only way that this will ever work is if you have every one get a lobotomy.
What fun is it when people are not being themselves. Look at your back posts. I have. You like to get in there and mix it up....If you let people be themselves Bob will have a great board. But if you want to micro-manage the board you will loose the spontaneity and it will be like that other board that you often point to as in your own words "boring"....

Merry Christmas everybody.

Ready....set...

Let's start by banning the phrase "like that other board".

RT
I don't envy you on your temporary mediator job. At times, it can be a no-win situation!

You have asked the BB members for some suggestions on how we can clean up some of our posting on Bob's site.

Personally, I think that some of the BB members sometimes make fools out of themselves when they carry on and get to the "name calling" stage.

Maybe you can create a new icon (something i.e. a redneck icon or bad taste) and post it below their name when they get too carried away. :p Remember the old saying "a picture is worth a million words". That way the member can still voice his or her opinion. When the icon appears, he will know that he or she has gone too far, and they can either correct their statement or remain foolish looking to the other BB members.

When it comes to spelling, I am the worse! That's why I almost always use my word processing program before I make a posting on subjects. It works well for me because it also makes me re-read what I am thinking before I post it. My brain goes ten times faster then my spelling and its well worth the extra time and effort to run my postings through the word processor before I post them.

I also think that it would be really great if you and Bob could figure out a way that we could identify certain postings for subjects i.e. "factual", "informational"," opinion", "technical" or "question". If this was done, then postings that were identified, say as "factual", would require some background information on how it was conceived. Likewise, if someone wanted to correct any misinformation that they may believe was in a "factual" posting, then they would have to show their expertise and how they had come to their conclusion that your factual information was incorrect!

For what it's worth, it is my opinion that we are being judged by other members every time we post on this BB. Just how well we can articulate our point of view, or position, to the members makes us subject to needless verbal attack. It's not on how well we can slam one another, but on how well we can articulate our response. I for one don't mind if someone replies negatively to any of my postings. I do expect them those to show me in an intelligent reason why they may disagree with the posting. I believe that we should all do our homework first before we post any provocative issues and be prepared to debate the subject in full in a courteous manner.

All in all, Bob has a great web site and I can't thank him enough for allowing us to use it for what he intended us to use it for. Maybe each of us should consider that when we feel ourselves getting a little to "wild". I would also like to thank you, RT, for trying to continually make this a better site. Good job and Merry Christmas!!

That's my 2 cents worth.

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

[ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]

RT, I don't envy your job either, this is a great board, and since it is, that means a lot of people will be on here. I personally believe and try to live by (though hard at times) these quotes;

"Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry."
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs that it may benefit those who listen."

Simple and plain, if you can't respond with a courteous response, why respond?


I have received much information from the great people that visit this board. I hope this board will continue on without a great amount of strife. Thanks for your time.

Good luck to all

Doubletake

RT, you're stepping up to a noble effort, but I respectfully suggest that it is destined to fail, and indeed, to have the opposite effect to what you intend. I know that you want to make this a fun place for all of us, hopefully while keeping the civility index a little higher than it sometimes is.

I agree with your thought about think before you post. That's simply a good rule for life, and I hope it will grow. But I wouldn't want someone to hold back on a sincerely held thought, simply because someone might take offense.

What makes forums fun for me is precisely the spontaneity and occasional rough edges. Over time, most people learn that the post might not mean what it did the first time through, and to take everything with a grain of salt.

If someone makes a mistake, or gets controversial, the subsequent discussions are where really good information gets exchanged.

If we are to take all of your suggestions thoroughly to heart, I think the result would be pretty sterile. For example, watching what you say so as to not hurt people's feelings? I know a contributor to a regional sportfishing mag that practically bursts into tears whenever anyone suggests that the mag is of less than Pulitzer prize winning caliber. ;-) Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think that's a fair reason not to debate the quality of STS. What if I get offended when someone discusses catch and release? Shall we avoid discussion of this topic? How about the use of bait? Where shall we draw the line? Whose feelings get to be respected? Just the longtimers? What about new folks? What about lurkers? What about *****? If you go down the path too far, eventually you end up with a ladies tea party where nothing happens, and no-one comes.

I, for one, prefer the rougher, no holds barred approach of the open net. A couple of good, creative name calling contests once in a while merely adds to the flavor, and makes it worth checking in. One can choose whether to respond as one wishes, and mature adults will usually hold back.

And if someone's feelings get hurt, well, there's a lesson there. How can anyone really hurt you with words through a computer screen?

I think the appropriate metaphor should be conversation. In conversation by the riverside, we choose what to say, how to say it, and decide as people whether we want to talk about our secrets. If someone gets too wierd, people turn away, and that piece of conversation dies. Noone worries too much about their grammar, and once in awhile a bad word creeps in. Is this bad?

As for worrying about spelling, well, I kan't get too worried about that. Seems to me like worrying about doilies on the dash of a jet sled. Unimportant, and gets in the way of the main task, which is communication. Did my use of the 'k' impede your understanding of the first sentence above?

This all said, Merry Christmas to everyone, and hope you all got a nice Loomis toy in your stocking.

Now, that's funny! The Fish Gawdess's name gets filtered by the software! Does that mean we don't have to worry about hurting her feelings?

Just let RT be the ROLE MODEL......

That would be like letting Snoop Dog be the role model for today's youth!!!

Actually Ryan...I was going to say.."let RT be the role model and let him start with RYAN...
Merry Christmas Ryan.....

Good start to discussing these factors. What we want is to come to a consensus and better understanding of how we want this thing to go. ...

EDIT: btw, I don't want to be a role model. Moderators are often held to an unfair higher standard. I'd rather be myself; but in that process keep trying to improve my demeanor on here. Hope others do to. ...

A good example of this in action is Silver Hilton's post here. I think it is a good balance in another direction to what my guideline suggestions attempt to improve upon. BTW, that's an important distinction for my original post here - it is essentially guideline "suggestions" as a goal for improvement! Not at all a call for hardline rules that are overly enforced. This is for a consensus of member opinion discusion on what gidelines to strive for, so as to improve the declining demeanor on the BB. I don't agree with you S'Hilton (can I call you Silton for abbreviation ) that it's destined to fail. Because the goal is not for "sterile" perfection at all (we've seen what attempts to do that to a fishing BB can negatively do), it's just a clean up endeavor to make this a more fun and productive site!

As for mixing it up in debates, I like to do that too. It makes for a more lively and interesting board. But we need to learn where that line is of going too far with it. As I said, I am in need of improving with this thing. Many of us are. That's what this thead is about. But some guys badly need to clean up there act. We know who they are, and they know they are it!

Keep the feedback and suggestions coming. Thanks.

RT

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: RT ]

I mentioned it when I first joined this board. It is very civil compared to 95% of the investment boards out there. Seldom see anyone get really out of line and have never seen a board where people are so quick to say "I'm Sorry" when they get really called on something.

Beyond that, it's a little like watching TV. When one of these back and forth duels get going that appear they will never end, ignore it, don't read it, move on. It keeps them busy and amused but you don't have to participate.

RT, you call me anything you want, just don't call me fishless. Call me silton, call me bob, call me anything you can think of. Though I answer well to Fishmaster...

That's a joke, son. :-)

By the way, I think the UBB gremlins are for wimps. Learn to use the darn keyboard. Smilies existed for a long time before this BB software did.

Moving on, I think you support my point. What I wrote as humorous, and clearly labled with a smilie, you think might be inflammatory. Therein lies the rub. It's ambiguous as to whether I intended to insult you. Be advised that I did not (though there might be just a little tweak in there :-)). I intentionally used exaggerated words that appear to have caused your feathers to ruffle. The whole point of the line "practically bursts into tears" line is that, precisely, you weren't moved to tears. It's sarcasm, exageration, extremism, to cause the reader to notice and laugh. Whether or not a reasonable, objective reader would think I crossed the line between humor and abuse is open for debate. For the record, please let me state that my intent was to create an exaggeration for humorous effect.

It's a delicate line. We as humans, are imperfect, and more to the point, we differ from each other. What each of think is funny, and what each of us will think is insulting, will differ.

The essence of the point is, I made a what I thought was a joke, I labeled it as a joke, you made a comment that I am interpreting as you not taking it as a joke. I chose words that I think are useful, in a literary fashion, to make a point. You think they are inflammatory. _WE_ have a difference of opinion. We need not come to blows over it. I don't think you are a bad guy, in fact, quite the opposite. Just to be clear, let me say that you have clearly demonstrated yourself to be 1), a heck of a fisherman, and 2) a pretty public spirited guy. I like to think of myself as the same, though maybe not up to your caliber as a fisherman. But I disagree with you. We have to be able to differentiate between the two postures. We can like each other (or not), and still think each other has his head buried in the nether regions, as regards a certain idea.

And that, my friend, is what makes debate fun. It also creates colorful debate on a board that, once in while, someone is going to think is over the top. The fact that you think my previous line is over the top reinforces my belief that the line is being drawn way too conservatively.

Part of the weakness, and the same time, the strength, of forums, is precisely the lack of editorial control. We get to learn each other as people, and editorial flaws expose us to each other. If we are mature, we realise that we are flawed, and that others are flawed as well, and we that we shouldn't get too exercised about it.

Now, this all said, Bob is the big boss, this is his forum, and you are moderator, so what you guys say is law, is law. But I can't say that I think that you, or we, are well served by even attempting, AS BOSSES, to lay down a law. In my experience, the simple abuse of malefactors by board members at large, is a much more effective medium of civil control. The metric of benefit to the sponsors of the board is visits, and that is driven by interest. Censorship will decrease interest, even if that censorship is only disapproval by the membership.

So I simply suggest that when someone goes over what we think the line is, we pile on, and we'll all learn where the line is. Once in awhile, someone will go over, and that will be instructive as to where the line is. And we should all be cautious about voicing our disapproval too freely.

Kind of like having kids, isn't it?

I suggest that anyone who wants an education to what forums can be like, check out rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, rec.sport.golf, the bulletin boards at www.akflyfishers.org, and www.virtualflyshop.com.

On the the rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, aka ROFF, do a search for posts by George Gherke, yes, of Gherke's Gink fame, and you will never again complain about jerks on this forum again. This is a pretty darn civil place, almost too much so.

Finally, is your email up to date in your profile? I'd love to send you a comment privately, but I sent you a message on another topic with no response, and so have no confidence in that mechanism.

Again, Merry Christmas to all.

RT - you spelled sensitive wrong

Just want to know how far I can go bustin a lurkers chops? Otherwise I'm one 'ell of a peaceful guy. I think you all know what I mean.

Gooose

Now that was a great post and communication of your concept for a good BB aura S'ilton. Seriously. It helped convinced me of my suspicions that I am too thin skinned and reactive at times; as are some others. You are right that I didn't recognize that your exagerated comments about my STS defensiveness were to make it humorous. And you did have the smilie after it. :-) It would help to know someone better when reading such stuff of course. When we don't know someone and they don't know you, perhaps it's still best to let them know you are kidding by a "jk" or 'wink smilie' after it. Likely would help avoid inadvertantly offending people on ocassion. But you are right, many of us may need to be a little less sensitive and reactive, in addition to others needing to be more civil in heated threads. I think those 2 factors are at the core of the solution, and the balance we are looking for via this discussion! ...

Besides, as with many others, that way I can keep cutting loose on here without as much concern about it offending people. BTW, anyone who thinks my quips on here are a bit edgy sometimes, you should see the way I am out in the boat! But out there people can see your real facial expression and voice tone to really understand a conveyance better, by far. ...

Also, I don't make the law around here as a moderator - temporary or otherwise. Bob makes the rules.

So, it is a thin line we tread, as S'ilton has conveyed well. And maybe the "pile on" thing, done in a reasonable manner, will be the indicator when someone is out of line. Of course that is arleady happening; just make it a little more civil when jumping on guy's posts is what I suggest will improve things.

Keep more feedback coming.

- S'ilton, my new e-mail addy is reeltruth1@yahoo.com

RT

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: RT ]

Peace, bro'.

Two hits, no conversions today. So we gave up at 11:00am and went and played golf. Shoulda seen the looks on the faces of the guys at the golf course when we pulled the boat into the parking lot, parked it, and pulled out our clubs.

Golfing and fishing in the same day. What a male bonding experience!

Silver, I have also done the same double header action only with bowhunting and fishing No strange looks my way!

FJ...out.