Here's the deal. I bought a pontoon boat about a month ago and today was its maiden voyage. We put in on this little river I know and about fifteen minutes into the trip, as I'm back oaring around a big root wad, The #$%^%$@! seat comes off of the frame! I lost my balance and went over backwards, right off the back of the boat! The boat and I were swept into the root wad and the boat got sucked under and popped up on the other side. I made it to shore (barely) and was able to find both the boat and the seat. When I looked at the seat to see what the hell happened, The studs had actually pulled out of the seat. It looks like they were glued in at the factory. The psser about the whole thing is that when I went into the water, I lost a custom tied loomis with a vintage ABU Cardinal 4 on it. The seat is obviously faulty, otherwise it would've held together a little longer than 15 minutes, so I think I should be entitled to a full refund of the purchase price of the boat, but I also feel that the manufacturer of the boat owes me a new rod and reel. Do I have a leg to stand on?

I would give um hell. Have the retailer help you
lobby for your renewal. Save defective parts that
can show that it was there fault that you had to
fight for your life. This is a very serious matter. What about teh others that could die because of this defect? lots of luck and thank your lucky star that you are still with us.

Not to bash the brand, but I have been considering boat #4, which would be a cat type boat. What brand/model? This way I can check it out. Maybe if the seat is the only weak spot, I could repair it first, then have a safe boat if the price is right.

Sorry about the dunking and loss of gear. I am glad you made it.

Andy

Glad you are still here to tell the story!

Document everything with pictures and in writing. Your thoughts and how you feel will be conveyed much better if it is written right away.

I think that you have a good case for a lawsuit for mental anguish, at least to make them fix this flaw.

I doubt if you will get anything for your loss of gear though....

OK no more Krispy Kreme donoughts for you!! Just joking :p Glad you werent injured!!!

I think you have a very good leg to stand on. I would ask for a complete repair if you really like the cat and rod/reel replacement, or your money back plus rod reel replacement. This is custom ordered for small claims court if they refuse. Their negligent design created the opportunity for your loss, not to mention the personal risk. If its not to far of a drive, get a photo of the location on the river so you can prove you weren't abusing the craft, as well as photos of the damaged studs on the boat. Also, price out your gear in advance for 'like' replacement.

#1 in my book LZZ is your alive...#2 same thing...#3 I'd be pissed as all get out too. Definitely should see compensation for your losses due to faulty workmanship that put your life at risk. Let us now how it goes...internet word of mouth can be powerful in making up their minds of what the right thing to do is.

Gooose

Yeah, time will tell. The brand of the boat is Waterskeeter, and I bought it in Portland at a place called Fisherman's. I E-mailed the owner of the boat manufacturer and told him what happened and what I expect to be done about it. He very well may tell me to take it up with Fisherman's, in which case I will. Rest assured though, somebody is going to be held accountable

i would F-in regulate! this is rediculous . they should repay you for everything! not to mention the fact you could have gotten hypothermia and almost died.i dont know if you can but if they dont repay you you should try to sue them.
RAISE SOME HELL!
Tyler
P.S. let us know what happens with this whole thing

Zo, I'm just glad you made it, man.

Who else out there would make me bust a gut along the bank by explaining some of the posts you made (and yeah, this is coming from one of those B*$t@&ds at Boeing

Seriously, I had a scare with a root wad once when I carelessly chose to cross above one. Lucky to be walking, and I won't do that again.
Really amkes you remember to iss the wife and kids.

Hope to fish with ya sometime soon,

Glad you got out OK.

Man, there ain't nothing worse than equipment failure! If you don't have confidence in your equipment don't bother.

I'm glad you came out in 1 piece, what an expierence huh.
they're gonna fight you lzz just so you know they most likely will give you a full refund on the boat but the rod kiss it goodbye.
So here's the plan your 2 buddy's THAT WERE THERE! need to be witness in small claims about how you injured your neck and back due to faulty equipment.
A little hint though don't get greedy just enough to cover expense's i.e. gas to the hospital, hospital bill, rod, reel, tackle, wader's that now have punctured hole's, shoe's that were lost, clothes that were torn,seat in the rig that was ruined due to water damage from the clothes that managed to stay on your back, and last but not least let's not forget about trauma.
If you present all of this to the mfr. of the pontoon and pinpoint on a map were your reel an rod are i'm sure that they'll either go retrieve it or get you a new one as long as you drop the case.
If for some odd reason you feel compelled to follow my twisted advice please let us know the company's policy and follow up to your prob. as we will take steps to oust them if they don't do right.

you might also mention you are quite adept at use of the internet and would hate to drag their good name through the mud with so many potential customers... the last thing a retailer wants.
good luck i think you deserve a full refund for all your equipment the boat should be repaired and given to you free of charge and then some
mike

ps contact an attorney

LZZ - Glad to hear you are O.K. Worst case equipment can be replaced. You can never be. Nothing else like that to give someone respect for the water!!! Hope you were wearing a PFD.

I would certainly expect at least a refund of my money plus something for mental anguish. Legal advice would certainly be advised in this case. Also would not hurt to let them know in a non threatening manner that lots of the guys you talk to on the internet thought you should seek compensation. That way you are not threatening openly which would have a negative impact in court but get the message across that their name will be mud if they don't handle this correctly.

Again glad you are O.K.

Bobbers...glad to see you recommend an atorney!
That should have been the first thing...let the atorney write the letter to the manufacturer! Let the attorney write the letter to the retailer. I am not an attorney! Your life is a serious matter! Glad you still have it by the way! My .02 is that I wouldn't handle it, step out of the way and let a pro.

Gill

It would seem to me the first thing to do would not to be contact an attorney.

It would seem to me the first thing to do would be to contact the manufacturer and give them an opportunity to make it right. Then, if need be, contact an attorney.

I am thinking it is very likely that Waterskeeter dosen't need or want the bad press this getting them already, not to mention how much it could down the road.

I would contact them with the problem and get a sense for their reaction and attitude before you start paying attorney's and making up false statements to try to get your gear investment back.

The person that suggested all the torn clothes, bad backs, etc etc to get 'just' compensation is perpetuating an attitude that has gotten our society to be the most sue-happy attorney pleasing court binding societies in the world.

The attitude of "sue the *******s!" should be held as a last resort.

ZO
I couldn't agree more with Bobbers. If your situation isn't exactly the reason we still tolerate the existance of Attorneys among us, I can't imagine what is.
Go hire the sleazyest shyster you can find and hit the manufacturer of this crap for every thing you can get! This is the only way to interupt the flood of shoddy merchandise on the market today.
I wouldn't be a bit suprised if this wasn't entirely due to NAFTA.
On a more serious note, I am glad you are still around to have posted this thread. You dodged a bullet big time, many thanks to the Supreme Being of your choice!
GRUMPY

How do you spell......L A W S U I T. tell both Fishermans and the maker they can save both time and money and make you even. Otherwise, you'll probably be driven a new Willie Preditor or Super Vee

I have already contacted the manufacturer of the boat via E-mail.... Still awaiting a reply. I expect to hear from them sometime early next week. I've been trying to get a hold of Fisherman's Marine in Portland and can't get anyone to answer the Damn phone.... Aren't they open on weekends? The number I have for them is (503)283-8310. Does anyone have a different number for them? I'd like to talk to somebody at Fisherman's and see what they have to say about this whole mess. I'm really not interested in going to court, or getting an attorney, but I do feel that a refund/ replacement of the boat AND my rod and reel replaced is in order. I am Soooooo pissed that I lost that rod and reel. I loved that rod and caught a ton of Steelhead with it..... That rod was kind of my good luck charm, its a shame that it had to go the way it did. I'll let you guys know what happens.

Zo,
I`m glad you`re okay.
I would imagine they would probably have no problem giving you a refund on the boat. As far as the rod and reel, don`t know.
I would give them the chance to make things right first, but if not, then by all means contatct a lawyer and see what recourse you have.
You probably could sue them,
But don`t make up stories like bentpole suggested, that`s exactly the type of person you don`t even want walking up you walkway to your front door
or being in your car or boat just in case he may need a couple of bucks for something.

LZZ Glad you made it out intacted. Scarey!!!


We have two of the same brand. Had some problems but manufacture took care of it and did so promptly. He was real good to work with.

Last time out I broke the seat on mine also. Mine broke at the hinge. I did not go in the water on that but would have been very easy too. One other problem i ran into was with the oar stops. They slip. Lost an oar that way. good thing I had a spare with me. I have wraped some electrical tape above and below the stops now and that seems to fix that problem.

I am sure that he will fix the boat but you will likely have to fight for the rod and reel loss.

Good luck

Oh my Gawd! Very glad this turned out as well as it did. And a good thing you chose a "small river".
First of all, limited warrantees apply only to the origional cost of the purchase. They aren't obligated to pay for anything beyond the cost of the item. That is assuming that you have a paper that came with the craft stating they offer a warantee.
However....most business people ( myself included ) are not jerks or idiots. I'm sure they'd offer a full refund. My Gawd, how could they justify NOT doing so? I wouldn't go making up lies about injury and destruction, but do ask that they reimburse you for your rod and reel. Judging by the name of the place, pick one out and suggest that you'd be happy with that model. They buy at wholesale, so they aren't out the full replacement cost. If they refuse, pursue Small Claims Court. Businessmen have little time to be drug into SCC for a couple hundred bucks when they know that your claim is justified. They'll probably replace it as a good will gesture.
Don't bother to sue unless this company ( the manufacturer ) has big assets. Most of the cataraft companies are not very big and don't have a lot of money. Your attorney would get most of it, and you'll get enough to buy the rod and reel and perhaps a burger on the way home.

Also, unless this cataraft was implied to be used in rivers, they may have an out by saying that you exerted far more stress on the equipment than lake rowing would entail. Backrowing, being what it is, could really stress a frame, especially if your in a seat with a back on it.

Hubby and I used to sell catarafts. I was rowing one and an employee was rowing one down the Elwha through the Rock Pick. I asked him if he felt confident going into it. Only THEN did he tell me that this was the first time he'd ever floated a river on anything but a big flat bottomed raft. Introduction To Back-Rowing 101 resulted in him pulling an oar out of the oarlock and sliding right up the side of a boulder. The raft flipped over him and the oarlock caught on his lifevest just under his chin. ( I truely thought I was going to see someone drown before my very eyes! ). The moral of this story is: Catarafts aren't as forgiving as driftboats, in manuverability OR constuction. REALLY check these puppies out for soundness of welds, strenghth of belts, cracks in framing, etc. They cost less because they ARE less.
And hey......fix that oarlock with something more than duct tape, please. Your wife will be glad you did.
Diana

Zo, Glad to hear you got out of this with nothing more than a dunking and a good scare. You have already had tons of suggestions, I'll add mine: I would make it clear to the manufacturer that you expect full compensation for the equipment, to include the tackle. I would be clear to add something like "I sure hope we can settle this to both of our satisfaction without having to go to court". I would NOT fabricate a bunch of lies about injury...last time I checked that is a punishable offense under the law known as perjury. I took a dunkin' in a fast river one day years ago-with the old vulcanized rubber chest waders on- and it scared the crap out of me. I'm sure your ordeal was much worse. Glad you made it to the bank alive!

Diana, what manufacturer of cats did you sell for? I don't think any, besides skookum and and fishcraft, made a complete system. Unless you sold NRS. Most cats are as forgiving, if not more then a driftboat. You hit a log or rock on with a driftboat, and you can stand a driftboat up and sink it getting a gunwhale in the water. Seen that many times, especially through the rock gardens going into the canyon on the Hoh. (in fact first time I ever met Bob he fished a set of guys who did exact same thing). Plus, you dig a cat into a hydraulic, at least it'll pop back up, you do that to a DB and it's staying on the bottom.

By chance, where you selling more of a pontoon class boat like an Outcast, Bucks, or Skeeter? Had my cat on borderline class 5's (upper Icicle, Nisqually) and my frame never tweaked and pulled through. Now a DB or pontoon boat, no way. I know alot of those pontoon boats have a moderate river classification (except those under 7' usually). I know crazies who've tried to run spots like the upper Duc, upper Sky, and upper Toutle in those things. I prefer to be in a solid cat when I hit big water like that (especially drifts like the Rogue). It sounds like you're describing a pontoon boat over a cataraft. Most cataraft frames are built virtually indestrutible. My frame hit a rock running a hydraulic on the Rogue and put a dent in lower frame, but didn't pop a weld at all. Now, a frame on an outcast/bucks will pop like a zit on anything wild.

I'd definitely wait and see what the maker says. If they're unresponsive, then go to the attorney. Especially since there was damages (a loss of a cherished rod is a damage). Would you have lost that rod if you wouldn't have had the seat snapped? It's not being greedy, and say it this way, you find a lawyer who works on contingincy and you'll make more then enough to buy a burger. I've had to sue over dogbites and other mishaps from my job. I've always faired in the 60%+ moneywise on all settlements using a lawyer. Just have to be careful what lawyers you use. A pay by the hour is where you barely have any money to show when you're done.

Good luck, and at least you're alive. Even more of a reason to have a real cat, they use whitewater seats, not those fancy dancy swivel seats you see on pontoon boats. LOL

[ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: Steelheader69 ]

STRAYDOG and RAINCITY
First off this reply was for lzz not for you to reply back what a "scum" you think I am and second of all reread my reply and I think you might get what I was typing.
quote
"If you present all of this to the mfr. of the pontoon and pinpoint on a map were your reel an rod are i'm sure that they'll either go retrieve it or get you a new one as long as you drop the case."
I wasn't implying lzz go after there employee's 401k and sue the world I was just stating what everyone else here has been saying and that is to get the pontoon replaced along with the rod and reel.
Now after reading this you still feel you want to challenge me, e-mail it and leave it off BB as I am sure know one else wants to have banter where there should be active, open, fun discussion's.
thank you for your time.

F4Stl:
You homewrecker.....your post resulted in discourse with the Hubster, who luvs his cataraft, and I, who luvs my driftboat.

We sold a CATARAFT by the brand name of Kingfisher. I know there is still one downstairs, maybe two. Personally, I've spent a few floats on the cat. Down the Elwha, and I think, maybe the Sol Duc. They scoot easily and they glide over rocks, granted. I'd worry if I spent alot of time gliding over rocks, you know. I don't worry about ripping the bottom off my driftboat.
When I drill a rock in my driftboat, the drink in holder might pop up like a bottle-rocket, but I don't have the fear of the boat riding up the side of the boulder like it was greased. But then, maybe I haven't hit enough rocks.
Yep, hydraulics scare me. I launched off the telephone pole up the Kalama once ( you can't do that anymore, last time I looked down there ) and the Staircase pushed me over edge. I don't know what was pumping more, the river or my heart. Last time I ever tried to row there. But then, I do believe if hydraulics are strong enough to pull a boat backwards into it, and pour into the stern, it's strong enough to push the end of a raft under and flip it.

Hubby loves his cataraft, and he'll float all over the Sol Duc with it. He can do far lower water than I can in a boat.
And truthfully, I won't float the Duc anymore in my boat. Men do it by strength. I have to do it on finesse. It's not a matter of "if", I feel it's a matter of "when", if you know what I mean. But, I would consider floating it in a cataraft.

I shouldn't have compared manueverability. Sorry.
But, I like my boats like I like my vehicles.....with plenty of metal around me.

And....when hubby tried netting that 10# fish in his cat, and stuck the hook through his hand with the thrashing fish attached, I sure would have liked 16 feet of planking under feet to wrestle with it. heh heh heh

Bottom line: it's a personal preference. ( But they still look like toys to me )

diana

OK. I just got off the phone with Fishermans Marine in Portland, I talked with a very nice guy by the name of John who said that if I bring the boat back to him, that they will repair/replace it, but that if it were his boat that this happened to, he'd take it up with the manufacturer directly. He was in total agreement that the manufacturer not only had to replce th boat, but that if they were worth a $hit, they would make things right with the rod and reel. He gave me the company's number, I called it and left a message. It's Sunday today, so I dont expect anything, but come tomorrow I expect to get a call or an E-mail letting me know exactly what's going to happen....... We'll see.

Zo, glad you survived it. I'm sure there are less fortunate victims of river obstructions.

Just a note on the lawsuit thing. When you sue someone, you get to claim damages. Your damages (besides the defective boat) are the lost rod and reel and perhaps some tackle. The total amount of your claim might be $5-600 (?) if you went full goose loony on the rod and reel. You didn't lose an arm or anything and you are alive, so what other real damages did you have? You were scared (justifiably so), wet and cold, but unless you went to the hospital and missed work, you came out pretty lucky. If you hire an attorney you will be past your damages real quick with his bill. The principle of the thing doesn't justify throwing good money after bad.

It is best to inform the company and be reasonable. They should take care of you. If they don't, your only real recourse is small claims, but if you claim damages above a certain limit (it used to be $250, you'd have to check now), then the defendant can simply ask for a jury trial and then you are off to the races with your pocket book and further frustrations.

Good luck. Try to work it out yourself and leave the attorney out of it.

Pitchpocket: I dont really want a lawsuit. I am inherently against filing lawsuits just for the sake of filing them. As far as damages go, I lost a rod and reel, no tackle. The rod and reel will cost between $250.00 & $300.00 to replace. The seat breaking on the boat caused me to get wet and cold, and the subsequent ride into the log jam kind of scared me...... My getting cold and wet was nothing more than an inconvienience.... I'm a big boy, I can stand a little cold and wet without having to worry about melting. The scared part is no biggy either, I've been scared before. The only REAL loss is the rod and reel and the broken seat on my now useless pontoon boat. Now, if Waterskeeter is a good company, they will repair the boat and replace the rod and reel and we'll all be happy. If the quality of my boat is any indication as to the quality of Waterskeeter as a company, well then, I'm going to get pissed off and I WILL DRAG THEM INTO SMALL CLAIMS COURT. Hopefully, this will all get worked out with no real bloodshed. Maybe I'm being a bit simple minded about this, but I feel that since the defective seat caused me to fall off the boat, thus losing my rod, that Waterskeeter should replace the rod as well as repair the boat. For instance, I am a Welder, if I were working for some company, any company, welding something together, lets say a crane boom. I finish the job and they fire the crane up and start to lift a load with it. Lets say the welds I put in were defective and as a result, the boom on the crane collapsed, crushing the office trailer of the clients my company did the job for. Now, would my company ONLY be responsible for repairing the defective crane boom, or would my company have to pay to replace the office trailer also, because my welds were deefective and the office never would have gotten smashed to begin with, were it not for the defects in the welds on the crane boom. Does that make any sense or am I all screwed up in that line of thought?

Pitch,

I believe small claims is up to $2,500 now. For a $3-400 claim, they (Waterskeeter) may not even show up...

My 2 cents

I think you're liable to be hosed on the rod and reel. You can sue them all you want, and you might get a judgement to collect. Their website shows them in California. You got the time and money to hunt them down? An attorney is going to cost you $100/hr, or more, and there is no assurance that you'll get attorney's fees in any judgement.

Further, their website says, in the FAQ: "5. What class white water do you suggest?
These boats rated for lake use only, except for the River Tamer. It may be used on rivers with some white water. It also depends on the person using the boat and their ability level."

If you have the river tamer (can't remember if you said), maybe you have a leg to stand on. Otherwise, I suspect they're liable to tell you to take a flying casual sexual adventure.

Not saying I agree, just telling you what I think your chances are.

And, as with the others, I'm glad you got out of it healthy enough to be righteously pissed off. Be thankful, for at least a minute.

Glad we're not hearing about you on the evening news. Best advice so far regarding recovering your losses is forget about hiring an attorney. Sounds like you're taking the right course of action on your own. Give them a chance to do the right thing; you can threaten to involve the Better Business Bureau, Office of the Attorney General, and various media consumer rights reporters if you're unhappy with the resolution they propose.

Is there any chance your equipment could be recovered with a concentrated effort near where you lost it? Have you tried snagging it, or walking the bank looking for it? Posted any notices? Good luck with your efforts.

Hey LittleZooZoo don't ask us. For legal questions and advice I'd ask TODD.

Silver Hilton: Weather the boat I have is or is not rated for river use, is inmatterial.... I too saw Waterskeeter's website, and saw how they said the only boat that is suitible for whitewater use is the River Tamer. One of their other boats called the river runner is technically not rated for river use, yet they market it under the name "River Runner", thus implying that it is suitable for rivers. Plus, Fisherman's marine sold me this boat as a river boat..... I very specifically asked the people at fFisherman's if I could use this boat on the rivers and the reply I got was "Hell yeah, that's what they're made for. PLus, Oregonfishing.com, the distributer of the boat, is selling these boats as river boats....Go check out their website www.oregonfishing.com and you'll see for yourself. Bottom line, I was told all along that this was a river boat. If it is, then great. Fix the boat and replace my rod and reel and we'll be just fine. If it isn't, then Fisherman's Marine and Oregonfishing.com lied to me and mislead me and noww the $hits going to hit the fan. One way or another I'll get that rod and reel replaced. Weather its Waterskeeter, Fisherman's, or Oregonfishing.com who replaces it, I dont know.

Damn ZoZo....that one hurts
It sounds like a defective seat to me.
The company should do you right.Most companies that produce"pontoon boats" have a ton of disclamers when it comes to this
read the fine print,I'm not saying you don't have case because this is a defective product.

Diana: Is you're Kingfisher still equiped with "a wood frame" ,I've seena few of these boats,for the most part they fit a need....just not mine ...duct tape ...love it.

Hey Zo.....ready to move up to a Real Boat

ZoZo,

I agree with you, not them. Please don't confuse my pessimism over the likelihood of your success with agreement with Waterskeeter. I merely think that you're going to have trouble prevailing, because of the lawyering and distance involved. Just because something is right, doesn't mean that it's going to happen.

That said, I hope I'm wrong, and will cheer with you if I am. Go get 'em!

Well, the head guy at Waterskeeter just called me on the phone. Before I even had a chance to start in on him, he informed me that he'd never heard of that problem with one of his boats before and that the thought of it made him sick. He also informed me that a new seat was on the way via Fed Ex, and that if I would be kind enought to let him know exactly what what and reel I'd like,he'd be more than happy to order them for me and ship them to my house. He said that replacing my rod/reel was the least he could do and he assured me that I'd never have that problem with the seat again. What a cool guy. No lip, no B.S., just service. The screwed up seat and the loss of my rod sucked, but these guys are going to make it right, so its all ok now. I'll let you guys know how the boat performs in the future.

Now that is service. Mistakes can and do happen in life. That is exactly how a company should handle one. It was also good how you handled the matter. Allow the one at fault to make it justly right, instead of all those eager beavers out there wanting to sue (sp?).

"Damnit, stop agreeing with me and giving me what I want. I've been getting ready to chew ass all weekend and you're taking the fun out of this."

Excellent! Looks like Waterskeeter plans to stay in business. They might even be distributing more than a little good will with their response. Maybe they read this board.

For what it's worth, Saltine is correct about the limit for small claims court being $2500, BUT, if your claim exceeds a certain amount (it used to be $250 when I was hosed, now I think it is $500) the defendant can request a jury trial. Then you have to get a lawyer and the costs start ringing up and up. If you are under the threshold, he has to endure the courtroom action or suffer a judgement against them, then all you have to do is collect. And that's another story!

I'm just glad they were willing to be accountable. Congratulations!

[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Pitch Pocket ]

Hoo-rah for a good company. Email them the Pis-Pursuits site and let them find out that they done themselves proud!

Re: Kingfisher Cataraft frame.....the frame is aluminum and the deck is wood. Tubes are 11 feet long, which is a far cry from the monster cat that someone else here emailed me about. I wouldn't stand up on the KF deck to fish, but he could play basketball on his.

This rain could stop anytime.....enough already.
diana

LOL Diana. The monster cat she's talking about Os is mine. Can't quite play B-ball on iit, but been known to string up strobelights and use front deck as a dance floor

Zo,
Glad to hear that everything turned out okay with minimal hassle and frustration.