Oh and people suy that WSR is not the answer.

Its not the answer but just because its not the total fix should we just keep bonking all the nates we catch? If thats your philophisy you are wrong! It has to start somewhere and WSR will = more natives on the reds. That is the bottom line. We cant fix everything but we can choose to let the natives we catch spawn.

We have dreamed, and hoped, and overharvested for years.

Its time that we error on the resources side.

Nuff said by me ]

Jim

Boy, this discusionn grew over night!

First.the river that I was reffering to concerning the steelhead and silvers intermingling on is the Duc on the canal.The river realy only has 6 miles of stream that is traditionaly reached by andromonous fish.3 miles of this are locked up in a canyon that keeps fish out of the tribs and does not supply substrate.All the gravell comes into the canyon from up above.Basicly all the fish have to share the 5 or 6 spawning ereas.I have caught Cuttys salmon and steely all in the same reaches on the same day.I watch the the silvers and the steelhead sitting right along side of each other every year.Remember these are not natives but an old stock left over from the hatch.I canot say I have actualy seen the steel head spawn but the salmon many of times.I have caught fish that in my uneducated mind looked like mixed fish!?

This is far from scientific data but here goes.I have been off work since oct.I have been fishing the Duk and the dose 3 To 6 days a week.The dose has shown me 1 native steelhead and 7 silvers this year.The duk is has shown me six natives and my first ever hatch fish and untold silvers.The skoke Has given me 2 nates of size and 16 small steelhead like richg record female,2 to 3 pounders.I know that it is early for our nates and this year I plan to continue looking for fish after the season closes and add to this scenario that I am putting together.But remember I know these rivers top to bottem and have been fishing them for 10 years seriosly.

Now the state is putting hath steel into the duc and the dose 10,000 smolt at a time.The man that raises these fish and distributes these fish does not figure three of them make it back to the river.He does not even believe that out of the 50,000 that are put into the skoke any return.So what is the purpose?The rivers are catch and release for everything but hatch steelhead.No bait or hook restrictions just release everything that isn't a hatch steelhead.These hatch fish distribution is only governed by where the truck can get close enough to the road.So there is no controll on these hatch fish just dump and run.Is this a succesfull hatch program?So the state is basicly telling me that everything in that river is not healthy enough to sustain a harvest of anything but hatchery steelhead that are not realy there!???

I once again canot help but feel that POLITICS have more to do with deciding the rules on our rivers than either science or common sense.Both science and common sense say to close the canal down to fishing pierod.But I firmly believe that our state Knows that it killed the cannal.To close it down and to do what needs to be done would be to incriminating and send the wrong message to the public.So instead we will lie untill it is dead.The Msy is a noble effort but it does not work and with the Increasing number of people that are interested in our fish it is controlling the last few fish that we have and that should scare everybody.

LtCleo,

I dont think the state is solely responsible for the crash of the Hooh Cannal, after the Boldt Decision there was some very heavy netting going on at all of the rivermouths in the Cannal.

But I think you are right about the state never admitting that they have been wrong. They just slide their failures under the rug and then move on to the next system they can screw up. But if you ask about the ones that are dead they will say " Yes that system is depressed due to habitat distruction or polution", they will never say that over harvest played a role.

i agree with rich on releasing all natives, salmonids/stealhead/trout anything wild, but the hatchery runs are ok, genetics were taken from "wild" stock, but as a example from this last weekends outing, i have come to the conclusion that a wild stealhead will out fight a hatchery fish 100/1, i have never had a hatchery fish leave the water and 4 out 5 i hooked on saturday left the water, putting on a show..i have NEVER seen a hatchery do that, and i fish the b-run steelies over in idaho (on occasion) which attain a bigger size than most hatchery fish.. maybe its jus a opionin, or a educated observation..so then it would be in the best interest of the fish runs to only harvest hatchery.. **berkley boy**

Yup, lots of folks out in Forks were scratching their heads Saturday. One local guide had a good explanation - Aliens have obviously abducted the nates that should be in the rivers by now. Personally, I think it's obvious what's going on.
One word - Sasquatch.

The thing that scares me the most is that the tribe isnt getting them either from what ive heard. That means they just arnt comming or havent come yet but it is getting late with the conditions we have had and all. No reason why they havent showed.

You know I didnt whant to say it and dont have any proof to back this up but I truely thing that the system's steelhead runs are starting to crash from no other reason than over harvest. It only makes sense we had a great hatchery run due to perfect ocean conditions yet we are barely getting a native run at all. It was only a matter of time we have been abuseing this river system for decades and now it looks like man has taken its tole.

But we wont know for sure till this spring when spawning surveys are done. Too bad we dont do sonar counts so we could know the status of the run as it comes in.

Here's an example of the one fish we landed out of the SolDuc when we floated the top end. The river should be full of fish like this right now but they are not here. This is what we are looseing.

Rich,
I think that you have missed my point about killing species or stocks of hatchery fish that have come down from "wild brood stock programs". Wasn't every steelhead that has ever come from our hatcheries a prodigy of a wild stock (think hard before you answer that one, and please don't side step the issue)? Many species of fish have gradually disappeared over time and that was before mankind was even here. Please explain why this was so! Do you also believe that it is wrong to keep ANY salmonid just because it was reared naturally, even those it was originally a product from the hatchery atmosphere?

So what biological facts can you tell me and this board that makes you think that steelhead is any different then the species that have already vanished? It sounds to me, like you are pretty much against any harvest (killing) of salmon or steelhead. That's fine, because it is your choice, and your opinion. But by no means is it the choice or opinion of the majority.

Obviously, the commissioners did not think the same way as you and others (come-on Todd, don't make a separate posting to address my reply!) do. Just because you and others think that catch and release is the answer and the way to go, there are twice as many fishermen out there that disagree with you! Remember, it's your own choice; no one else forces you to feel that way (it's like saying, "it's the right thing to do"). The release of all wild steelhead may be a noble one, but one that will most likely never be reached. I say this because of this simple reality;

If the "common fishing person" just takes the time to read all what has been said here and on others posting concerning this issue, they will see that there are many "pieces of the puzzle" missing. Without those pieces of the puzzle, wild steelhead recover will simply not happen! Let me just explain some of the views that people have expressed to me.

First, they ask me how possibly will "catch and release" help recover wild steelhead when the tribes continue to take the lion's share of these wild fish? I don't really want to get into the Indian thing on this issue, but these people need a real valid answer. Oh sure, I expect you or Todd, to tell me, and them, that there is nothing that we can do about that issue because it was decided by Judge Bolt and that is the end of that! People will not accept that one for an answer because it's a cop-out! So let it roll!

Secondly, and this question applies directly to "RPetzold" statement "That is a pretty ignorany (must be miss-spelled?) comment in regards to what makes it okay to kill a hatchery fish and not a wild".
Ignorant, well lets see who is "ignorant" or who is really lacking knowledge of what is really going on in our fishery resources and systems.

They ask me; why can't we keep a steelhead that comes back from the prodigy of a natural spawned "hatchery stock" steelhead, and how do we know which fish is of "wild" stock and which fish is from "hatchery stocks"? Good question. Again, let it roll!

Thirdly, and we are talking Cowlitz here, but I will bet you money that it can be applied to many other river systems. I am asked (and for good reasons); why do we have to release all unmark fish when all of them have come from "hatchery stock adults"?

Example; on the Cowlitz River, millions of unmarked fry (both salmon and steelhead) have been released into the "upper Cowlitz". Now, two, three, four years later, these same "hatchery stock" fish are now returning as unmarked (adipose fin in tack) adult fish and they are being protected from harvest because they still have their adipose fin intact. They (WDFW) supposably claim to have used "genetically close" (and it was never showed or identified that those "genetics" stocks were even from true Cowlitz stock) stocks on steelhead, but no genetic studies where ever done on the coho or Chinooks to see if they were truly the "right stocks" for recovery! So now Rich and others, when you release one on the Cowlitz, think of the possible "harm" that you may have done to restoring the true "wild" native fish. No one but the big Hydro Electric company, (Tacoma Power) will benefit from this one!

Nothing gets my hair up faster then someone calling me "ignorant" when it is really they who are the ignorant ones. Have either of you ever spent the hours that people like me and others have going through WDFW" real old records" files to see what stocks have been planted into your most sacred river that you "think" is truly of "wild stock" origin? I thing not!

I know for a fact, that numerous stocks of "wild" steelhead were brought into the Cowlitz by WDW in the early years (long before the dams). What makes you think that it was any different on your most favorite "wild" river system?

Guys, maybe the answer why our "wild stocks" are gone are looking you right in the face! Do the homework, and answer my "ignorant" questions, and then we will see why our "wild" steelhead runs may never fully recover!

Hell, why not say one more thing, it's my damn dime; "I" have had "hatchery fish" jump and fight just as hard as any "wild fish"! I do agree that most "natural raised fish" do fight harder for the most part, then "hatchery fish" do.

I got more, much more, but I better cool it down before I go their!!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook…….. I certainly hope so on this issue!!!!

Cowlitzefisherman,

No I dont think it is wrong to kill wild fish that are the offspring of hatchery fish. But how do you tell the difference? I will resease all unmarked fish to error on the side of the native fish.

I kill hatchery fish and have killed both wild salmon and steelhead before I knew any better.

Kill wild steelhead and salmon if you whant to where it is legal its your right. But is it right? This is a question you have to answer in you own mind. To me it is not rigt to kill native salmon and steelhead and I will continue not too. But if you kill them where it is legal and someday they are gone you were part of the problem. And even those of us that do release wild fish that take every safeguard and treat the fish with the uptmost respect will aslo make an impact by killing a few fish. But we will kill far fewer fish then the ones that take advantage of their right to harvest native fish.

Rich,

Please do not attempt to brush off my posting and valid questions like this! You, and others, owe it to this board to answer the questions that I have put forth upon you.

This is one reason why so many new members are questioning the integrity of this board!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I think everyone just needs to be patient, the fish will show.. I've seen it too many times thinking that the run wasn't going to show and they were just late. They're wild fish and will show accordingly to their schedule not the one we think they should follow.
Keith

I think you are right on that issue!

Cowlitzfisherman
is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

cowlitzfisherman,

How can you say that the Cowlitz system has no actual native steelhead and that all the wild fish in the system are from hatchery spawning in the wild. What about the Toutle system? What about all the untold small creeks that run into the Cowlitz. None of these rivers and streams have pure native stock?

What questions am I not answering? Please lett me know and I will answer them the best I can.

I think I have posted many times that I think wild Salmon are just as important as Steelhead. Without the salmon Steelhead dont exist. Salmon are the staple and life force of a river system. Everything is sustained off of their death. That is the only reason Alaska rivers have so much abundance.

Keith,

The wild run at one time started in early November out here. The peak of the run is definately early March but substantial numbers of fish have always come earlier. The run should have really started a few weeks ago with consistant numbers but it didnt. The last week of Jan- first week of Feb should always show the beginng of the real big bucks and a good number of hens. A few big bucks came but not many. By the first of march we should see all those big hens showing as well as a bunch of smaller 3 salt bucks and 2 salts. but If all those big bucks havent showed I am not expecting the rest are gonna show either.

Every cylce the run seems to come in a smaller time frame. Is the run just comeing all at one time with the same amount of fish as before or are we seeing that since there were not as many Dec, Jan , Feb fish as March/April fish and that the harvest has been heavier on the earlier returning fish that there are fewer left every year to sustain the next cycle.

Look at the Hoh it hasnt shown the same patern as the Quileute it still has good numbers Wild steelhead returning from Oct to May. Yet the Quileute system seems to only get consistent numbers of fish from Mid Feb till the third week of April. If you went back 20 years you would see that the Quileute had a run timeing similar to the Hoh. This year it seems as the run has even been pushed back even further if it really comes at all.

Thinking the run is late is wishfull thinking. It was late three weeks ago. Or if you look back even further its been getting later every cycle.

Rich G,
I will answer your questions to the letter! To bad you can't reply in the same fashion to my questions!

First off, The Toutle River is a completely different drainage system then that of the Cowlitz! Yes, it is a tributary, but it is from a total different watershed drainage. That is why both Tacoma Power and other "representatives" from the NMFS, and WDFW did not include it when they performed the "all mighty" Ecosystem Diagnosis and Treatment Method (EDT). I was their, and I know far more then you do concerning this issue, and that my friend is a fact! Like I said earlier; "…think hard before you answer…!

Granted, there still exits a small amount (according to WDFW) of wild spawning steelhead in Delameter, Arkansas and the Coweeman creeks. There may even be a few left in the South Fork of the Toutle, but not enough to rebuild any runs. At best, they only amount to hand full of "wild" steelhead.

You ask me, what questions are you not answering? You can read what questions I have asked you so please give us your answers! You also make the statement "Without the salmon, Steelhead don't exist" Well that may be true about "wild" steelhead, but that surely isn't true when it comes to hatchery steelhead is it? So who are we kidding?

Next, you say "Everything is sustained off of their death". Well that may also be true about "wild" steelhead, but it is surely not the case when it comes to hatchery steelhead is it? So lets not try to fool the uneducated fishermen into thinking that only "wild" steelhead are our only hope for recovery, nor is it the only answer or option to restoring our fishery.

Now what question did I side step from you?

BTW, we also had an early natural run of winter steelhead that also started in early November. Just about half of our fish run historically returned before the February and March runs did. One last final issue that you had raised; all of our "untold" smaller creeks have unfriendly fish culverts that pretty well have stopped all and any movement of any spawning steelhead.

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Cowlitzfisherman

cf,
Where can I find some of these old records.I have been digging for a week or two but can't find anything?I am trying to learn about the hood canal erea?

I would think that it would be better to err on the side of caution and release an unmarked fish even if you think most of the unmarked are probably 'feral' hatchery fish.Does anyone know what other winter stocks were used on the Cowlitz besides Chambers Creek?

ltlCLEO,

Most likely you will have to go to the WDFW main office in Olympia. You will need to put in a Public Records Discloser Request and ask for a appointment to review ALL records that WDFW have pertaining to the specific area that you are looking for. I am afraid just asking to review all "Hood Canal" records would be an unlimited task for them. You might find out what you are looking for by contacting the area biologist and start with him before you place your Public Discloser Request. Sometimes the Biologist will get you all the information that you may be seeking without doing the request. Good luck and be prepared to do a lot of reading!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Bodysurf

Same advice to you as ItICLEO. You might find out what stocks have been introduced into the Cowlitz by contacting the area biologist or the complex manager for the Cowlitz Salmon and Trout Hatchery His name is Don Peterson (360-864-6135). I can't remember all of them, but there was a slug of them! They came from just about every major system up north. Start with him before you place your Public Discloser Request. Also you may very well be right about "it would be better to err on the side of caution and release an unmarked fish even if you think most of the unmarked are probably 'feral' hatchery fish"

We owe it to our fish to do our homework before we make any decisions and that is why I have debated this issue. You may or may not agree with what I have stated, but you are certainly more informed now then before. I hope that what I have posted will give you a better understanding of how many other anglers feel about c&r. Most of them are afraid to post their real opinions about this subject because of their lack of knowledge of this subject, and the HEAT that will most likely follow.

"Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Rich,

Sounds like I really got to you, I have found that facts will do that almost every time when someone is standing on weak grounds. My replies to you where generated from your own various statements that you made during this thread. It shouldn't be too hard for you to figure that one out.

The reason that I may have been "beating a dead horse" was because you have put yourself so darn high into that saddle. You got to admit, you made some pretty bold statements in your postings that you knew would draw some heat (no need to tell you which ones, because you already know).

Just a few more words about your above reply and I will let you ride off on that horse that you have gotten up onto. Obviously, you only care about one thing, and that is about pushing your own agenda for c&r. Your last statement spells that out clearly when you say "For one I don't give a **** about the Cowlitz it is already gone..." Well Rich that is exactly the kind of attitude that got the Cowlitz River where it is at today! So don't be too surprised when that same kind of attitude comes back to bite you on your OP rivers some day soon.

One last point; where in the hell did you get that I said "2 thirds of the steelhead fisherman are pro Catch and kill for native fish" on this thread? What I did say was; "there are twice as many fishermen out there that disagree with you!" So please don't take other statements that may have been used on other threads out of text just to attempt to put someone down. The last time I attended school, twice as many didn't mean "two thirds" as many!

I want to preserve the Cowlitz, but as long as there are people that feel the same way that you do, it's not likely happen, is it?

Last thing, when I started on this board 2 years ago I never saw any requirement that said this board was only for c&r. Where was that posted? It may be the trend now, but I sure don't remember that ever being posted as any kind of guide lines, do you? In fact, if my memory serves me right, I can remember some bb members were accusing Big Bob of bonking native steelhead. Didn't that happen, or am I mistaken that?

Enough said!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????