We had a decent wild run in December and early January this year compared to years past but now it dosent look so good.

After the last high water we had at the end of last month we should have gotten our first big push of nates but they didnt show up. Knowone has been doing very well on any of the Quileute system rivers a couple fish here and there. Which is not good for this time of year.

My cousin and I fished hard all week putting in about 35 hours, hooking only 5 wild steelhead. Two of which were on the Hoh. Three of those fish only came out of the Quileute System where we spent 75% of our time.

The first day we fised the Quileute System we fished the Bogachiel from the 101 Bridge all the way up to Indian creek Thats about 8 miles of river and we fished it hard being the only ones on that stretch of river. We had no bites saw no fish or reds. Something wasnt right it is the wrong time of year for that river to be empty. It had been cold and the conditions were low and clear but i have never fished that river in Feb with those conditions and covered that much water finding no fish. Well we wrote that one Off thing that they must have been there but wernt biteing due to the conditions. In the Back of our mind we knew there were no fish but we didnt want to admit it.

The Next day we did the Sol Duc form Riverside to the Hatchery. Thats about 15 mile of river and we did it from the boat. It was at about 7 boards and at that lever you can see everything in the water. Keep in mind its mid Febuary and there should have decent numbers of fish in the river and should be stacked in the stretch we did. We were all alone agian and had the river to ourselves. In the entire float we hooked two fish and saw one more. As well we saw three or four reds. Thats is not right in most of the float you could see the bottom everywhere we checked out every hole after we fished it for non biters and they wernt there. We didnt spook and fish out of tailouts when we floated over or when we ran plugs the river was almost empty.

Granted the conditions wernt good but even in bad conditions we should have seen atleat 15 or 20 fish in that float hooking 5 on a bad day being the only boat on the river.

The problem is this: its mid Feb and the fish havent showed yet, sure there have been some big fish caught but knowone has had glory days on the system. Its gettin too late and If they dont start showing in big number after the next rain the writeing is on the wall.

Heres the big problem. What if the fish never show. The way the state manages the rivers we wont know till this spring if we got enough fish or not as thats when they find out the run size by spawner surveys.

By MSY the run is projected by the spawning escapement and smolt survival from 4 and 5 years earlier. From that projection they caculate to the exact fish how many will be harvested and they try and make sure we and the tribes take every extra fish.

So if it looks like it does on the Quileute System so far we could be comming way short of what they thought. I dont know what the projection was but im sure it was quite high compared to the last few years projections.

So the jist of it is this. No matter what the actual run size is harvest goes off of the projected run size. If we get a far smaller run than projected and harvest off of the projected run size the Steelhead and the Quileute system take it in the shorts. I think this is happening as we speak.

I may be wrong and might be jumping the gun a little but the fish should be comming and we have had the rain to make them come. There is no excure for them to have not shown yet.

This is how we got to the situation we are in now in the Queets and the North Sound rivers.

Here's another thing that's wrong with the Quileute - the Tribe and the Corps of Engineers has armored basically the whole estuary to prevent the river from forming a delta, and they have dramatically increased dredging to keep the river open for navigation. They also raised the training wall on the boat basin, filled in the last of the high intertidal wetlands on the reservation and built their fisheries center on it, and rebuilt the marina using creosote treated piling. Oh yeah, built a nice new boat launch too, in one of the few areas of the marina that had any saltmarsh left. Basically there is almost no place left for smolts to adapt from life in freshwater to life in saltwater - they just shoot out the armored navigation channel right into the mouths of rockfish and lingcod. I would suspect that survival of juvenile salmon leaving the system has gotten very low. Most of this occurred about 4-5 years ago - just the right timing to cause the depressed run we may be seeing.

It's not just poor management that has caused Puget Sound fish to nearly go extinct - most of the river mouths in Puget Sound have been treated just this way. It's another part of the problem

That can't be true the WDFW says that the Quilliute system is the mother river, the most healthy river in the state.

What if The Quileute system gets a very small run that is over harvested and come Late April or early May we get some big floods that churns up the rivers real bad.

This will equal dismal survival for those eggs in the reds and whatever fry have hatched. This is what can make a system crash. And to boot those April returning 2nd or 3rd time spawning hens which in a cituation where we have a small return even play a bigger part in ensureing the run survives are gonna be harvested as we wont know the actual escapement till its too late.

The management system is flawed and just dosent work.

I can see now that there is some kind of problem with the run this year I can just feel it. But the powers that be are too set in there ways and wont know what the run really was untill it is too late.

Hey spawnout that is a great point about no transtion point for the smolt. This could be the problem. I think it isn't the ocean conditions, because the puget sound river that I fish had the best hatchery return in recent memory and the amount of smolts planted has been the same. Also the Nates have arrived in decent #'s right on time. We also saw a larger # of wild fish in Dec. and Jan. I was talking to the hatchery manager and these could be hathchery fish offspring. Just had to post a reply since I couldn't go fishing today.

You got a point that makes alot of sense Spawnout.

Regarding estuaries - Clearly the filling of our estuaries have had impacts on the various salmonid stocks. However all the information that is available indicates that steelhead spend very little time in the esturary. They basically move quickly on downstream and out into the open marine waters. The larger the smolts (steelhead are typcially the largest smolts in a basin) the less time they spend in the estuary. They achieve their early growth in the river; thus are more depend on the freshwater habitat. However the estuary and near shore areas are critical for fish like chinook, pinks and chums.

Rich - given your concern about returns are suggesting that we all voluntarily not fish the system for the rest of the season? Given your worst case assumptions even releasing all the "nates" may not be enough. I'm sure we all will be watching the "reports" from the next several weeks with interest and concern.

tight lines
Smalma

No Im not saying not to fish. Whats the point of stopping fishing. Im tired of it all. Its all gonna be gone someday if things dont change.

When are poeple gonna realize that you cant take 50% or a run year after year and keep screwing up the river habitat. The fish are gonna disapear eventually.

I had no idea what kind of shape our rivers were really in before I made a trip to Alaska last fall. It was awsome to see a complete system working the it was designed too.

The fish up there have way harsher conditions to deal with but yet they thrive in huge numbers.

The rivers down here have way milder conditions better cover and can produce 12 months out of the year compared to Alaskas 6 months but yet we have far fewer fish.

The state says the Op rivers like the Quileute are produceing as much as they can and that there are excess fish.

I fished a river that is the size of the Dungeness but shorter. It ran through tundra and had no cover. It was full from bank to bank with Steelhead, Dollies, Coho and Sockey. It had more fish in it during the time that I was there than the Quileute system gets in an entire year.

You cant tell me that our rivers are produceing as much as they can. They have so much potential that they are not given a chance to show because of all the greed.

That is why things will never change because people are greedy.

Rich -
It must have been awesome to see how healthy, lightly fished rivrs must look like!

I don't think the State is claiming that the river is being managed to "produce as much as possible" but rather so the current harvests can be maintianed and that escapements will be at or above MSH levels. Of course to produce as many fish as possible there can't be ANY fishing induced mortalities including hooking mortality. Don't think we seriously want to go there. Guess the argument boils down to picking a comfortable point somewhere between MSH (bonk lots of fish) and carrying capacity (no fishing).

I wasn't seriously suggesting that fishing be stopped but the continued reliance on WSR as the magic bullet for steelhead recovery diverts us from the real issues. Your example of an unnamed Zipper-lip in AK illustrates some of the issues. The productive of a river system like the one you described is clearly driven by the huge abundance of salmon. Without the nutrients from the spawning salmon the populations would crash.

My point is that if one seriously thinks we should release wild steelhead then why not all wild salmonids. The young steelhead need the nutrients that the return salmon would bring to the river. Many on this board seem to push WSR but seem willing to kill wild chinook, coho, pink, chum, sockeye, Dollies, and/or cutts either here or in Alaska. That seems to me to be very inconsistent, what is good for one species should be good for all. The arguement I hear is that salmon are different than steelhead. Yes they are; the salmon represent a large portion of the nutrient base that drives the system.

I noticed that you didn't name the Alaskan river. I assume that is because folks are concern about fishing pressure. Would not be surprised that the Quillayute receives as much fishing pressure on a December Saturday as your "zipper-lip" did in a month. Out of curiosity were anglers allowed to kill any fish?

I have enjoyed and wish to encourage your zeal for steelhead and their rivers. It will take the interest and energy of our young anglers if we are going to reverse what is wrong with the rivers. My generation has not done a very good job. I just would like to see that effort directed more towards what I see as the real issues which to me means a more holistic approach to ecosystem management.

Tight lines
Smalma

Smalma

An excellent posting and reply! You reflect my personal views to the letter on this issue!!

I would like to see more of the responses to your reply. This issue needs to be thoroughly discussed, and openly debated before any conclusions can be drawn.

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Im for wild release of all trout and salmon species no reason to kill any of them. I have killed wild salmon but dont anymore. I dont think you should have the right to kill any wild salmon or steelhead. It would be OK if people wouldnt be greedy but people are greedy and will take as much as they can and then some. Everybody wants to fill the freezer.

I killed no fish in Alaska even though it is aloud for salmon. I know it happens on that river I fished but I didnt see anybody kill fish. Steelhead are catch and release on that river. I doubt the river I fished in Alaska gets as much presure in a year that the Bogachiel and Clawah get on a weekend during christmas vacation.

Rich

Am I reading you right? Are you saying that you believe that it is wrong to "kill" or harvest ANY "salmon" or steelhead speice, just because it happens to be what you call "wild"?

If that is so, what is your logic? Do you truly believe that it's "OK" to kill species that are raised by man, but it's not "OK" to kill or harvest any naturally raised salmon or steelhead specie?

What I hear you saying, in your mind is; it's ok to kill salmon or steelhead, but it is only "OK" if they are raised by man. Is this correct, or am I misunderstanding what you had posted? Didn't all harvestable species of salmon and steelhead originate from what you call "wild" stocks?

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Smalma, Smalma, Smalma -
First of all, I must say I enjoy your posts as they bring alot to the table, eventhough I do not agree where alot of your arguements lie...

I have to disagree with your assumption that WSR is being used as a magic bullet to cure our wild steelhead woes. As much as I wish that the WSR was the magic bullet to brining our wild steelhead runs back to their historical escapement numbers, I know that is not the truth. WSR is a relatively simple goal to achieve and will guarentee that more wild steelhead will reach the spawning beds.

The fight for the protection and ultimately, the survival of wild steelhead, is just begining and WSR is just a battle in the grand scheme of things...

Like Rich, I do not have a problem with a total statewide release on wild salmonids BUT is it neccasary?? Will it solve the problems?? I doubt it...

Eventhough I am not sure of the escapement goal and population trend of Snohomish River Pinks, I do not have a problem with the harvest of this species as from everything I read, this year's return was very far above the escapement goal BUT was the 4 or 6 fish limit or whatever it ended up at necassary?? Couldn't we just have left it at 2?

How many pink salmon ended up in the garbage because they were killed just because they could or how many ended up in the trash or eventually will because they were killed just for the eggs...??

When we have situations where it is fairly obvious that a wild population can sustain a harvest, should we not limit it and not promote unneccasary slaughter?

I must agree with you Smalma that the arguement lies where we want our harvest point to be...whether we want it so that we are harvesting for MSH or Carrying Capacity.

Cowlitzfisherman-
That is a pretty ignorany comment in regards to what makes it okay to kill a hatchery fish and not a wild fish. Maybe the Cowlitz doesn't have enough of a wild run on steelhead so that you can tell the differance between a man-raised fish and a nature-raised fish. I invite you to come fish the Sky or the Stilly next winter...we will fish in December for the brats and in Febuary for the nates and I can guarentee you will understand why the release of all wild steelhead is important.

Smalma, I enjoy your posts. You are right WSR is not the magic bullet and cure all to our steelhead whoas, but it is a start and way to strike a balance between conservation and recreation for anglers. But aside from another drawn out discussion regarding WSR, please indulge me this. We know what the broad issues are regarding wild salmonids-the four H's. In your opinion, what are the real issues in details that apply to anglers? What are the actions anglers can take personally to help reverse the decline?(Aside from hanging up their rods)

Ryan -
I'm sure that we both agree that WSR is not a magic bullet for steelhead recovery. My conern is that some do believe so. WSR was first used to gain access to hatchery fish while having low impacts on wild stocks that were in low abundance. The use of WSR outside of the period when hatchery fish is around is just method of allocating the impacts on the wild resource. Restoring wild population productivity lies elsewhere.

You state that you have no problem with allowing harvest of Snohomish pinks; especially when it is "obvious that a wild population can substain a harvest". With salmon harvest has been allowed when it is expected that escapement goals will be met. Over the last decade the Snohomish pinks have met its goal less than half of the time while the Quillayute winter steelhead have met their goal 90% (maybe 100%) of the time.

You stated: "I do not have a problem with a total state wide release on wild salmoids, BUT is it neccessary?? Will it solve the problems?? I doubt it..."

My point exactly. I don't have a problem with total state wide WSR but is it necessary? Will it solve the problems? I doubt it.

There can only be a few if any other anadromous salmonid stocks in the state that have as consistently exceed the MSH escapement goal or by as much (as mesured as a % of the goal) as Quilluyate winter steelhead.

My point is what is biologically unique about steelhead that doesn't apply to the other salmonids?

Tight lines
Smalma

Well Smalma, your knowledge has again, far exceeded mine.

So I guess I must take my statement back in regards to the Snohomish pinks.

Your last question, "My point is what is biologically unique about steelhead that doesn't apply to the other salmonids?" was one raised by a couple of the Commisioners when discussing why there were voting no on Proposal 1.

I guess I will have to admit there is nothing. Steelhead do though, bring anglers from around the World to fish for them. The sport qualities of steelhead are unmatched by but a few other species. The history behind the sport, the flies, the literature, the passion that steelhead evoke far exceeds any other species in the PNW. And to me, I spend 95% of time on the water in pursuit of steelhead...so maybe my passion for WSR goes much farther then just science but the science shows that WSR will help our populations and preserve them for the future. Please take a look at the WSC's Biological and Economic Impacts of Wild Steelhead, although I am more then sure you have read most, if not all the studies that paper is based upon. And let me hear your rebuttals!

Thanks for the excellent discussion and putting up with my rambly posts!

Just spent 2 days on a bar on The Quill. One wild fish caught about an 8 pound buck with net marks. We usually catch 5-6 this time of year, so maybe Rich is right. Queets was down this year too, hope something isnt up......

Double Haul -
Sorry I was posting a response to Ryan.

I'll try to respond to your questions. Please be aware that we are moving beyond sharing information and what follows are just my own opinions and views.

First and foremost I believe that folks need to honestly evaluate are own impacts steelhead -no more hiding our heads in the sand. That is why I have been such a b***head about the true role of WSR.

Secondly we need as many anglers as possible with a passion and zeal for the resource. It really doesn't matter whether they are bonkers or releasers. Everyone just needs to care and being willing to fight for the resource.

As for the 4 Hs-
HARVEST - By harvest I mean dead fish and don't really care how the fish dies. Harvest basically equates to impacts. I believe that continued fishing is important - without anglers we'll lose our potential political power base. We need to be able to demostrate to habitat managers that we are willing to put fish into habitats that they may protect or restore. That means holding impacts levels to less than that allowed at MSH management levels so new or improved habitats will quickly be taken advantage of. Bottom line manage for escapements above MSH but below carrying capacity (remember at capacity there is no fishing).

There is a component to harvest that is federally mandated which we need to recognize and then move on and not let that side track us.

HATCHERY - Again we need a honest assessment of what anglers want with a realistic evaluation of impacts (hatchery/wild interactions). Hatcheries best supply fish for harvest. We need to be careful that wild fish needs are placed first; continue to develop strategies to reduce hatchery/wild interactions). Marking of all hatchery production is a must. In the river systems that I'm familiar with there is virtually no use for wild or native brood stocks. Wild brood stocks from a genetic, biologically or harvest management view have way more negatives than positives. Planting fish where they can be caught and at levels that are in line with the fihing pressure (put fish where people fish).

HABITAT - This is where the real work will be. What we are talking about is protection our river systems; we can't approach at a single species level. It means that folks have to get involved in the dirty process of lobbying and learning to play the American politic game. Have to learn how the games are played and hold decision makers accountable for protecting the publics resources rather than caving in to special interests pressure. Folks need to get involved at the local, state and federal levels demanding "greener" laws and regulations as well as enforcement of existing laws (example ESA). Part and parcel with this will be the willingness to pay more for everything. Protecting our rivers means that power, water, and most everything else will cost more. It also may mean less growth or jobs.

All the above applies to steelhead as well as the other salmonids. They are really just thumbnail sketches all which could be developed with much more detail. However I need to tie a fly or two for tomrrow so that will be all for now. Hope it helps to provide some food for thought..

Tight lines
Smalma

You heard me right Cowlitzfisherman.
Yes I think its wrong to kill any of the wild species of salmon or trout. Why? Because you cant tell the difference between wild and true natives. Its a copout to kill a wild fish because it might be a wild fish from hatchery spawning. its a bad excuse to kill a wild fish just because you whant to bonk something.

Another thing. I dont care what WDFW says about any of our rivers being heathly. The truth is that that none of them are. There is not enough historical data avialable to know what any of our rivers are capible of produceing and that is the truth. It is easy to see that our rivers are not produceing anything near thier potential.

If you go up north you will see rivers with much harsher conditions produceing 50 times the fish. How do you explain that?

I bet you would say nutrients.

Think back 100 years ago when our rivers had the nutreints that the rivers in Alaska had. But other than the nutreints they had much more: 12 months of milder conditions to produce fish and more potential for bug life for juvenile salmon and trout to eat.

Our resident trout have all but dissapeard unlike Alaska but yet we have better conditions for them.

We only have Dollies in Glacier rivers here and in only sparce numbers. In alaska they are like a desiese in every river and stream and roadside ditch just as the salmon. When was the last time you saw salmon in a ditch along side the road here because ther was no more red space in the main river or stream?

I rest my case our rivers are sick all of them.

Oh and people suy that WSR is not the answer.

Its not the answer but just because its not the total fix should we just keep bonking all the nates we catch? If thats your philophisy you are wrong! It has to start somewhere and WSR will = more natives on the reds. That is the bottom line. We cant fix everything but we can choose to let the natives we catch spawn.

We have dreamed, and hoped, and overharvested for years.

Its time that we error on the resources side.

Nuff said by me ]

Jim

Boy, this discusionn grew over night!

First.the river that I was reffering to concerning the steelhead and silvers intermingling on is the Duc on the canal.The river realy only has 6 miles of stream that is traditionaly reached by andromonous fish.3 miles of this are locked up in a canyon that keeps fish out of the tribs and does not supply substrate.All the gravell comes into the canyon from up above.Basicly all the fish have to share the 5 or 6 spawning ereas.I have caught Cuttys salmon and steely all in the same reaches on the same day.I watch the the silvers and the steelhead sitting right along side of each other every year.Remember these are not natives but an old stock left over from the hatch.I canot say I have actualy seen the steel head spawn but the salmon many of times.I have caught fish that in my uneducated mind looked like mixed fish!?

This is far from scientific data but here goes.I have been off work since oct.I have been fishing the Duk and the dose 3 To 6 days a week.The dose has shown me 1 native steelhead and 7 silvers this year.The duk is has shown me six natives and my first ever hatch fish and untold silvers.The skoke Has given me 2 nates of size and 16 small steelhead like richg record female,2 to 3 pounders.I know that it is early for our nates and this year I plan to continue looking for fish after the season closes and add to this scenario that I am putting together.But remember I know these rivers top to bottem and have been fishing them for 10 years seriosly.

Now the state is putting hath steel into the duc and the dose 10,000 smolt at a time.The man that raises these fish and distributes these fish does not figure three of them make it back to the river.He does not even believe that out of the 50,000 that are put into the skoke any return.So what is the purpose?The rivers are catch and release for everything but hatch steelhead.No bait or hook restrictions just release everything that isn't a hatch steelhead.These hatch fish distribution is only governed by where the truck can get close enough to the road.So there is no controll on these hatch fish just dump and run.Is this a succesfull hatch program?So the state is basicly telling me that everything in that river is not healthy enough to sustain a harvest of anything but hatchery steelhead that are not realy there!???

I once again canot help but feel that POLITICS have more to do with deciding the rules on our rivers than either science or common sense.Both science and common sense say to close the canal down to fishing pierod.But I firmly believe that our state Knows that it killed the cannal.To close it down and to do what needs to be done would be to incriminating and send the wrong message to the public.So instead we will lie untill it is dead.The Msy is a noble effort but it does not work and with the Increasing number of people that are interested in our fish it is controlling the last few fish that we have and that should scare everybody.

LtCleo,

I dont think the state is solely responsible for the crash of the Hooh Cannal, after the Boldt Decision there was some very heavy netting going on at all of the rivermouths in the Cannal.

But I think you are right about the state never admitting that they have been wrong. They just slide their failures under the rug and then move on to the next system they can screw up. But if you ask about the ones that are dead they will say " Yes that system is depressed due to habitat distruction or polution", they will never say that over harvest played a role.

i agree with rich on releasing all natives, salmonids/stealhead/trout anything wild, but the hatchery runs are ok, genetics were taken from "wild" stock, but as a example from this last weekends outing, i have come to the conclusion that a wild stealhead will out fight a hatchery fish 100/1, i have never had a hatchery fish leave the water and 4 out 5 i hooked on saturday left the water, putting on a show..i have NEVER seen a hatchery do that, and i fish the b-run steelies over in idaho (on occasion) which attain a bigger size than most hatchery fish.. maybe its jus a opionin, or a educated observation..so then it would be in the best interest of the fish runs to only harvest hatchery.. **berkley boy**

Yup, lots of folks out in Forks were scratching their heads Saturday. One local guide had a good explanation - Aliens have obviously abducted the nates that should be in the rivers by now. Personally, I think it's obvious what's going on.
One word - Sasquatch.

The thing that scares me the most is that the tribe isnt getting them either from what ive heard. That means they just arnt comming or havent come yet but it is getting late with the conditions we have had and all. No reason why they havent showed.

You know I didnt whant to say it and dont have any proof to back this up but I truely thing that the system's steelhead runs are starting to crash from no other reason than over harvest. It only makes sense we had a great hatchery run due to perfect ocean conditions yet we are barely getting a native run at all. It was only a matter of time we have been abuseing this river system for decades and now it looks like man has taken its tole.

But we wont know for sure till this spring when spawning surveys are done. Too bad we dont do sonar counts so we could know the status of the run as it comes in.

Here's an example of the one fish we landed out of the SolDuc when we floated the top end. The river should be full of fish like this right now but they are not here. This is what we are looseing.

Rich,
I think that you have missed my point about killing species or stocks of hatchery fish that have come down from "wild brood stock programs". Wasn't every steelhead that has ever come from our hatcheries a prodigy of a wild stock (think hard before you answer that one, and please don't side step the issue)? Many species of fish have gradually disappeared over time and that was before mankind was even here. Please explain why this was so! Do you also believe that it is wrong to keep ANY salmonid just because it was reared naturally, even those it was originally a product from the hatchery atmosphere?

So what biological facts can you tell me and this board that makes you think that steelhead is any different then the species that have already vanished? It sounds to me, like you are pretty much against any harvest (killing) of salmon or steelhead. That's fine, because it is your choice, and your opinion. But by no means is it the choice or opinion of the majority.

Obviously, the commissioners did not think the same way as you and others (come-on Todd, don't make a separate posting to address my reply!) do. Just because you and others think that catch and release is the answer and the way to go, there are twice as many fishermen out there that disagree with you! Remember, it's your own choice; no one else forces you to feel that way (it's like saying, "it's the right thing to do"). The release of all wild steelhead may be a noble one, but one that will most likely never be reached. I say this because of this simple reality;

If the "common fishing person" just takes the time to read all what has been said here and on others posting concerning this issue, they will see that there are many "pieces of the puzzle" missing. Without those pieces of the puzzle, wild steelhead recover will simply not happen! Let me just explain some of the views that people have expressed to me.

First, they ask me how possibly will "catch and release" help recover wild steelhead when the tribes continue to take the lion's share of these wild fish? I don't really want to get into the Indian thing on this issue, but these people need a real valid answer. Oh sure, I expect you or Todd, to tell me, and them, that there is nothing that we can do about that issue because it was decided by Judge Bolt and that is the end of that! People will not accept that one for an answer because it's a cop-out! So let it roll!

Secondly, and this question applies directly to "RPetzold" statement "That is a pretty ignorany (must be miss-spelled?) comment in regards to what makes it okay to kill a hatchery fish and not a wild".
Ignorant, well lets see who is "ignorant" or who is really lacking knowledge of what is really going on in our fishery resources and systems.

They ask me; why can't we keep a steelhead that comes back from the prodigy of a natural spawned "hatchery stock" steelhead, and how do we know which fish is of "wild" stock and which fish is from "hatchery stocks"? Good question. Again, let it roll!

Thirdly, and we are talking Cowlitz here, but I will bet you money that it can be applied to many other river systems. I am asked (and for good reasons); why do we have to release all unmark fish when all of them have come from "hatchery stock adults"?

Example; on the Cowlitz River, millions of unmarked fry (both salmon and steelhead) have been released into the "upper Cowlitz". Now, two, three, four years later, these same "hatchery stock" fish are now returning as unmarked (adipose fin in tack) adult fish and they are being protected from harvest because they still have their adipose fin intact. They (WDFW) supposably claim to have used "genetically close" (and it was never showed or identified that those "genetics" stocks were even from true Cowlitz stock) stocks on steelhead, but no genetic studies where ever done on the coho or Chinooks to see if they were truly the "right stocks" for recovery! So now Rich and others, when you release one on the Cowlitz, think of the possible "harm" that you may have done to restoring the true "wild" native fish. No one but the big Hydro Electric company, (Tacoma Power) will benefit from this one!

Nothing gets my hair up faster then someone calling me "ignorant" when it is really they who are the ignorant ones. Have either of you ever spent the hours that people like me and others have going through WDFW" real old records" files to see what stocks have been planted into your most sacred river that you "think" is truly of "wild stock" origin? I thing not!

I know for a fact, that numerous stocks of "wild" steelhead were brought into the Cowlitz by WDW in the early years (long before the dams). What makes you think that it was any different on your most favorite "wild" river system?

Guys, maybe the answer why our "wild stocks" are gone are looking you right in the face! Do the homework, and answer my "ignorant" questions, and then we will see why our "wild" steelhead runs may never fully recover!

Hell, why not say one more thing, it's my damn dime; "I" have had "hatchery fish" jump and fight just as hard as any "wild fish"! I do agree that most "natural raised fish" do fight harder for the most part, then "hatchery fish" do.

I got more, much more, but I better cool it down before I go their!!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook…….. I certainly hope so on this issue!!!!

Cowlitzefisherman,

No I dont think it is wrong to kill wild fish that are the offspring of hatchery fish. But how do you tell the difference? I will resease all unmarked fish to error on the side of the native fish.

I kill hatchery fish and have killed both wild salmon and steelhead before I knew any better.

Kill wild steelhead and salmon if you whant to where it is legal its your right. But is it right? This is a question you have to answer in you own mind. To me it is not rigt to kill native salmon and steelhead and I will continue not too. But if you kill them where it is legal and someday they are gone you were part of the problem. And even those of us that do release wild fish that take every safeguard and treat the fish with the uptmost respect will aslo make an impact by killing a few fish. But we will kill far fewer fish then the ones that take advantage of their right to harvest native fish.

Rich,

Please do not attempt to brush off my posting and valid questions like this! You, and others, owe it to this board to answer the questions that I have put forth upon you.

This is one reason why so many new members are questioning the integrity of this board!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I think everyone just needs to be patient, the fish will show.. I've seen it too many times thinking that the run wasn't going to show and they were just late. They're wild fish and will show accordingly to their schedule not the one we think they should follow.
Keith

I think you are right on that issue!

Cowlitzfisherman
is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

cowlitzfisherman,

How can you say that the Cowlitz system has no actual native steelhead and that all the wild fish in the system are from hatchery spawning in the wild. What about the Toutle system? What about all the untold small creeks that run into the Cowlitz. None of these rivers and streams have pure native stock?

What questions am I not answering? Please lett me know and I will answer them the best I can.

I think I have posted many times that I think wild Salmon are just as important as Steelhead. Without the salmon Steelhead dont exist. Salmon are the staple and life force of a river system. Everything is sustained off of their death. That is the only reason Alaska rivers have so much abundance.

Keith,

The wild run at one time started in early November out here. The peak of the run is definately early March but substantial numbers of fish have always come earlier. The run should have really started a few weeks ago with consistant numbers but it didnt. The last week of Jan- first week of Feb should always show the beginng of the real big bucks and a good number of hens. A few big bucks came but not many. By the first of march we should see all those big hens showing as well as a bunch of smaller 3 salt bucks and 2 salts. but If all those big bucks havent showed I am not expecting the rest are gonna show either.

Every cylce the run seems to come in a smaller time frame. Is the run just comeing all at one time with the same amount of fish as before or are we seeing that since there were not as many Dec, Jan , Feb fish as March/April fish and that the harvest has been heavier on the earlier returning fish that there are fewer left every year to sustain the next cycle.

Look at the Hoh it hasnt shown the same patern as the Quileute it still has good numbers Wild steelhead returning from Oct to May. Yet the Quileute system seems to only get consistent numbers of fish from Mid Feb till the third week of April. If you went back 20 years you would see that the Quileute had a run timeing similar to the Hoh. This year it seems as the run has even been pushed back even further if it really comes at all.

Thinking the run is late is wishfull thinking. It was late three weeks ago. Or if you look back even further its been getting later every cycle.

Rich G,
I will answer your questions to the letter! To bad you can't reply in the same fashion to my questions!

First off, The Toutle River is a completely different drainage system then that of the Cowlitz! Yes, it is a tributary, but it is from a total different watershed drainage. That is why both Tacoma Power and other "representatives" from the NMFS, and WDFW did not include it when they performed the "all mighty" Ecosystem Diagnosis and Treatment Method (EDT). I was their, and I know far more then you do concerning this issue, and that my friend is a fact! Like I said earlier; "…think hard before you answer…!

Granted, there still exits a small amount (according to WDFW) of wild spawning steelhead in Delameter, Arkansas and the Coweeman creeks. There may even be a few left in the South Fork of the Toutle, but not enough to rebuild any runs. At best, they only amount to hand full of "wild" steelhead.

You ask me, what questions are you not answering? You can read what questions I have asked you so please give us your answers! You also make the statement "Without the salmon, Steelhead don't exist" Well that may be true about "wild" steelhead, but that surely isn't true when it comes to hatchery steelhead is it? So who are we kidding?

Next, you say "Everything is sustained off of their death". Well that may also be true about "wild" steelhead, but it is surely not the case when it comes to hatchery steelhead is it? So lets not try to fool the uneducated fishermen into thinking that only "wild" steelhead are our only hope for recovery, nor is it the only answer or option to restoring our fishery.

Now what question did I side step from you?

BTW, we also had an early natural run of winter steelhead that also started in early November. Just about half of our fish run historically returned before the February and March runs did. One last final issue that you had raised; all of our "untold" smaller creeks have unfriendly fish culverts that pretty well have stopped all and any movement of any spawning steelhead.

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Cowlitzfisherman

cf,
Where can I find some of these old records.I have been digging for a week or two but can't find anything?I am trying to learn about the hood canal erea?

I would think that it would be better to err on the side of caution and release an unmarked fish even if you think most of the unmarked are probably 'feral' hatchery fish.Does anyone know what other winter stocks were used on the Cowlitz besides Chambers Creek?

ltlCLEO,

Most likely you will have to go to the WDFW main office in Olympia. You will need to put in a Public Records Discloser Request and ask for a appointment to review ALL records that WDFW have pertaining to the specific area that you are looking for. I am afraid just asking to review all "Hood Canal" records would be an unlimited task for them. You might find out what you are looking for by contacting the area biologist and start with him before you place your Public Discloser Request. Sometimes the Biologist will get you all the information that you may be seeking without doing the request. Good luck and be prepared to do a lot of reading!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Bodysurf

Same advice to you as ItICLEO. You might find out what stocks have been introduced into the Cowlitz by contacting the area biologist or the complex manager for the Cowlitz Salmon and Trout Hatchery His name is Don Peterson (360-864-6135). I can't remember all of them, but there was a slug of them! They came from just about every major system up north. Start with him before you place your Public Discloser Request. Also you may very well be right about "it would be better to err on the side of caution and release an unmarked fish even if you think most of the unmarked are probably 'feral' hatchery fish"

We owe it to our fish to do our homework before we make any decisions and that is why I have debated this issue. You may or may not agree with what I have stated, but you are certainly more informed now then before. I hope that what I have posted will give you a better understanding of how many other anglers feel about c&r. Most of them are afraid to post their real opinions about this subject because of their lack of knowledge of this subject, and the HEAT that will most likely follow.

"Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Rich,

Sounds like I really got to you, I have found that facts will do that almost every time when someone is standing on weak grounds. My replies to you where generated from your own various statements that you made during this thread. It shouldn't be too hard for you to figure that one out.

The reason that I may have been "beating a dead horse" was because you have put yourself so darn high into that saddle. You got to admit, you made some pretty bold statements in your postings that you knew would draw some heat (no need to tell you which ones, because you already know).

Just a few more words about your above reply and I will let you ride off on that horse that you have gotten up onto. Obviously, you only care about one thing, and that is about pushing your own agenda for c&r. Your last statement spells that out clearly when you say "For one I don't give a **** about the Cowlitz it is already gone..." Well Rich that is exactly the kind of attitude that got the Cowlitz River where it is at today! So don't be too surprised when that same kind of attitude comes back to bite you on your OP rivers some day soon.

One last point; where in the hell did you get that I said "2 thirds of the steelhead fisherman are pro Catch and kill for native fish" on this thread? What I did say was; "there are twice as many fishermen out there that disagree with you!" So please don't take other statements that may have been used on other threads out of text just to attempt to put someone down. The last time I attended school, twice as many didn't mean "two thirds" as many!

I want to preserve the Cowlitz, but as long as there are people that feel the same way that you do, it's not likely happen, is it?

Last thing, when I started on this board 2 years ago I never saw any requirement that said this board was only for c&r. Where was that posted? It may be the trend now, but I sure don't remember that ever being posted as any kind of guide lines, do you? In fact, if my memory serves me right, I can remember some bb members were accusing Big Bob of bonking native steelhead. Didn't that happen, or am I mistaken that?

Enough said!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I still have no idea what you are saying and how it applys to the OP. You have twisted the **** out of this.

You havent shown me a shred of fact proveing wrong what I anitially said in the beginning. I did make some bold statements that I cant back up but i whant people to know that there is a problem as most people think the system is healthy just because the powers that be say so.

Its too late for the Cowlitz but it inst too late for the Quileute system. The Quileute system is still somewhat healthy for most of the runs. If you whanted to fix the Cowlitz it should have been started 25 years ago.

I never meant this to be a debate you are the one that started this. But now its done.

Oh but wait you still never showed me any fact other than Cowlitz fact wich really dosent prove anything about the OP.

Cowlitzfisherman,

Why dont you ask Bob about that when he comes back im sure he will give you some answers.

If we had any truely healthy runs of either wild salmon or steelhead I wouldnt have a problem with bonking a few but the truth is that we dont. We have somewhat healthy runs but thats about it.

As far as people like you are concerned and WDFW are concerned I am worong. The OP has plenty of wild fish for all user groups. just as the Skagit, Snohomis, Columbia system and every other river once did. ONCE DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey all,
I've been a reader of this board for years. I truly appreciate the service that Bob provides and the great stories and tips that come from all of you. I agree with Rich in that there are not as many fish around as there should be this time of year. I've still got high hopes that the bulk of the run is simply late.
Cowlitz, I only have one comment on the points you have made above. While on a trip down the cowlitz you release one native steelhead and keep twice as many. Pretty good day of fishing (if you are not into C&R).... By my math you caught 3 fish, and kept twice as many as you released. 2/3 of the time you kept fish! I think Rich may be better at math than you give him credit.
regards,
Neal

Cowlitzfisherman,

Im sorry this turned out to be what it did. I have read alot of good things you have written in the past and think you care alot about the fish.

The thing I dont understand is why you are trying to prove me wrong about the Quileute system. It is apparent that there is a problem right now. It is also apparent that CnK and the current hatchery practices arnt helping the issues that this river has but thats not the point. All I was saying is that something is wrong.

If you can tell me how CnK and current hatchery practices will enhance the Quileute river system's wild steelhead im all ears. I just dont see how either of these things does the system any good. The OPGA Snider creek program seems like it has had some positive impact but none of the proir have.

There are many vairiables that have made things the way they are. Hatcherys and CnK are only parts of the problem but they have made an impact.

Rich,
I guess we both got a little carried away in our postings. You have the same love for your rivers as I do for the Cowlitz and I guess that is not a bad thing to have. Hope you are wrong about your fish not coming back. For what ever it is worth, I am seeing the same thing on a small river that is usually just full of wild fish right now down here. Something is going on, and I too hope that they are just running late this year. Sorry that I get so into it sometimes, but it's just is in my blood.

Neal M

What are you saying? I don't get it about the 3 fish thing!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Cowlitzfisherman,
It seems we both get a little emotional on these types of issues.

Just what we have showed is the reason why we as steelheaders cant get anything done and have no say in our fishery.

Yet we want the same things for our rivers we only argue amongst ourselves instead of working together to save our rivers.

We all as different user groups whant different things out of our fishery but there is one thing that we all want and that is more wild steelhead. We want healthy rivers that work they way god intended.

I am sorry if I offended anyone in one of the posts I made. Everyones opinion is important no matter If I agree or not. Only looking at things from one angle is narrow minded and if we just put up walls we will never come together and the fish will never come back.

Cowlitzfisherman, You really ought to read the WSC research paper "Biological and Economic Benefits of Wild Steelhead Release" when you have the opportunity. The paper provides factual information and data that is science based. It's available through the WSC website.

Guys, I am Thrilled to see that end the way it did.That thread was going to be the straw that broke the camels back here.

There just late guys! Remember the Kings last Oct Rich! They were late and then Bam!!!! Here they came in numbers and size!!! Some of the biggest fish Ive ever caught! Lets just hope the gods are just waiting for the nets to come out and the fish to gain a couple more pounds! After this freshet we should know! As far as the Cow...Thats up to the hatchery gods. If it dies, which it has before, the state, I mean hatchery gods, will make it all better!

Bob D

Rich G...Hella nice fish...When I grow up I wanna be just like u! Wooof to the tenth power!