Seems to me alot of people kill any Dolly caught and throw them up on the bank for Eagle food. (I perfer to wrap them in alum foil and throw them on my heater for lunch) Some say all they do is eat salmon and steelhead eggs and by killing them we are saving alot of fry.

Wheather it's legal or not to kill a Dolly, or a sucker (some rivers are open to Dollies) are we really helping the fry or are we interfering with nature?

By removing a species from a river are we hurting the natural balance?

Let's say it's a river open to Dollies, and there was no "Un-wantfull Waste Law", what do you all think and why?

IF (big if here) the run can sustain harvest, AND I want it for dinner, I'll keep it. If I don't intend to eat it, I would let it go. They are cool looking fish.

Northern Pikeminnow are a different story. They become fertilizer, or whatever the BPA does with them. That would be an example of a fish I would keep, but not eat.

The Dolly might be the most underrated game fish in the state. I have caught Dollies on the Upper *shhh!* to 11 pounds, and all over the rest of the OP. I seem to catch alot of them this time of year with spinners and spoons. When I catch a sizable Dolly in the tailout it pretty much assures me that there are bigger fish in the hole.

Good thing they taste freakin horrible or I might have killed a few more of them. Anyone I saw killing a Dolly and feeding it to the birds would get a 'piece of mind' (if there is anything left to spare).

I see them as a part of the balance installed by nature to maintain the health of the various ecosystems they inhabit. Seems to me that eggs dollies eat as they float by are doomed anyway, I highly doubt Dollies forage eggs that have been successfully laid in redds. Especially when the spawners are present.

As much attention as the national fish and game is giving the dolly varden/bull trout populations I would not recomend tossing one up on the beach for fertilizer.I will take it personal if I ever see it happen.The other side of the coin is they will start closing rivers down if the situation does not improve.They just did on the skoke so do not think they can't

I caught a good number of good size this year on the skoke which was truly amazing and encouraging as I have only caught two in the past 20 years.They just closed the upper reaches because they think it is spawning habitat.All of the dolly's that I caught were in one single run on the skoke.That is making the usfws guys wonder about the stream that dumps in just above this reach.I guess they like little tribs for spawning.Kinda interesting stuff.

I believe that all trout will eat fry, if they are bigger than the fry. I've caught Rainbows, Cutts, etc with fry in their guts. Heck, I've caught a 15 lb summer steelie that had a smolt in its gut and another summer fish with its stomach so swollen with eggs it was almost as big as my(then) 16 yr old fist. I hate the thought of "wasting" legal or not any native gamefish.

Clonking a Dollie for dinner is one thing but to just pitch it up in the brush to save a few fry is criminal! I have caught many dollies that were so full of 4-6" smolts that they were puking them up when beached, but that is just natures way. The rivers I've seen this on have healthy runs of salmon,steelhead and dollies so I don't think there is any real impact.

G-Man, People that have this mentality towards Char are ignorant of the ecosystem.

I guess I never considered the fry eating part...I suppose they could and do predate ferociuosly on fry. Its either them or the Blue Herons though....

Ah - one of my favorite fish.

I agree with Stlhdh2o - the Dolly Varden/bull trout are a great gamefish, especially when the tackle is scaled to their size. Try those 20 inch fish on your 5 weight fly rods.

While it is common to see them feeding on eggs the vast majority of the eggs are those that have been dug up by the spawning salmon - thus dead eggs. It is an old wives tale that they dig them out of the gravel.

They certainly are a predator, in fact an apex predator - the top dog if you will. However Ginrdog is correct all salmonids eat smaller salmonids.

Our native char are a great indicator species. They use the whole system from the glaciers to the salt. If they are abundant then the river is functioning as it should. Throwing them or any other species into the brush just becasue of some mis-directed bias is reprehensible.

Tight lines
Smalma

I am new to the board, so please don't jump on me because my post may be controversial. First off, it is illegal to kill any char in Washington State, they are listed under the Endangered Species Act, so those of you that are talking about eating them or tossing them, I think the USFWS will be interested in your confessions. It is also illegal to target them for fishing. So, that is why numbskulls like Bill Herzog who write articles that suggest targeting an Endangered SPecies are under close scrutiny from the USFWS. You are not allowed to target the fish, not allowed to keep the fish, so just release them gently if you catch them.

7x7-
You are correct for most of the state however there are several streams were it is legal to fish for and even keep char in the state. On the West side of the Cascades you are allowed 2 a day over 20 inches on the Skagit and Snohomish river systems. I believe there are couple streams on the east side but since I don't fish there much I'm not sure which.

When bull trout were listed the fisheries on the Skagit and Snohomsih were in place and are allowed to continue by USFWS (WDFW had determined that those populations were healthy). The populations in both basin continue to increase (since the 20 inch minimum size limit) with more than a 5 fold increase in spawners in the last decade.

Tight lines
Smalma

Now, when exactly did Bill do this?

Maybe the USFWS and NMFS should "scrutinize" their own idiotic management practices that have led to the depressesd numbers of Hood Canal salmon in the first place.

Don't worry DanS, it's just "hedgehog's" arch-nemisis back for some more bashing.

Funny thing KB, I was thinkin' the same thing.

What do these people have against william the impaler? Give a guy a break.

Just a little more Dolly info. WDFW biologist Curt Kraemer was largely responsible for the 20-inch minimum size regulation for Dollies on the Skagit system about ten years ago. It was based on the fact that Dollies don't spawn until they're about seventeen inches long. In a recent conversation with him he told me that in the annual September count the average number of Dolly redds in that system had increased from 3.7 per mile to 37 per mile; a tenfold increase in ten years.

hey all....
first off i would like to say that, yes, its me hedgie...now all those stories where a bunch of BS, good for u those of you who caught that...it was all for a report on internet aggression among different age groups....iff'n you dont believe me, ill post the report...

anywho, 7x7 good reply...i think you are right on, the fact is that we problably shouldnt even have a season for char/dolly varden since you CANNOT distinguish them from a bull trout, that and there are still many streams that bull trout "supposedly" dont inhabit...i got a couple scale samples from a local montesano river like this and they are what? you guessed it, bull trout. I just think that we (as someone said before) shouldnt try to mess around with the balance, we aready do that enough with hatchery fish and with what we are doing to our rivers, and please if you want to do something for the fish, dont kill them(with the exception of pikeminnow's, or tigermusky), go volenteer somewhere because that is what they (char/dollies) are born to do, their called predators.

Two points about throwing dollies up on the bank:

1) It's illegal, immoral, and unethical. It's called wastage of game. If I see someone do it, I'll be on the phone to the gamies so fast your head will spin.

2) If dollies are such a plague to salmon and steelhead, however did the runs manage before we were here to kill the dollies? Seems to me the salmon did fine before we were here. Maybe the dollies aren't the problem?

There's no doubt that dollies, and rainbows, and steelhead, and salmon smolts, and cutthroats, will eat loose salmon eggs. However, the precise reason salmonids bury their eggs in gravel is to protect them from predation, among other things. The loose eggs are dead already.

I'm sure that some of the fingerlings get eaten, too, but I haven't seen any data that indicates that dollies and other freshwater predation are anywhere near the threat to the fish that, say, loss of habitat is.

If you go fish in Alaska, the rivers that have the best salmon runs have the best dollie runs as well. Doesn't seem to hurt the salmon there. For a long time, Alaska had a misguided bounty on dollies. Once they got decent biologists in the fish and game department, the practice stopped. We could learn something from Alaska - they have actually recovered some salmon runs.

More and more genetic evidence is pointing to (plus many scientists now believe) the fact that the fish we have always called Dolly Varden are in fact Bull Trout.

Obssesed (on the board) is doing a study in the Snohomish system right now to better understand where Bull Trout overwinter within a river system.

His knowledge of Bull Trout/Dolly Varden far exceeds most on the subject and I am sure he could fill us in.

thanks for the info rp..i cant wait to see what he says....do you know if he,or anyone else, is gonna continue the study on rivers in south puget sound?

Do the Dollies go out to sea? And if yes, how long and where do they head to? Yes, there are ALOT of Dollies in the Sauk and Skagit and their numbers are increasing every year. They do very good in that system.

G-man -
Our "Dollies" do go to the salt. In the North Puget Sound rivers we find 4 general life histories in the native char. 1) A resident form that spend all of their lifes in the headwater streams and never getting larger than 12 inches or so. 2) A fluvial or river form that drops downstream into the larger rivers to rear in the large pools. 3) Adfluvail or lake form that drops downstream into lakes (such as Baker) to rear.
and 4) Anadromous or sea-going form.

The anadromous form behaves more like sea-run cutthroat than steelhead. That is they drop into Puget Sound feeding along the shorelines in shallow water. They seem to stay relatively close to their home stream, it would be unusually for them to migrate more than 50 miles from their home stream. They spend the spring, summer and early fall in the marine waters and return to freshwater to overwinter.

For what it is worth the information that currently available indicates that all of our anadromous "Dollies" are in fact bull trout. So far here in Western Washington Dolly Varden have only been found in the headwater "resident forms".

Tight lines
Smalma

Smalma-
The more I read about Bull Trout/Dollies and the more discussions I have with those very knowledgeable in both species, the more fascinated I become.

In your observations, do you see a large amount of hybridization between the two species and if in fact hybridization does take place, what portion of our Dolly Varden/Bull Trout individuals are hybrids?

Just curious...thanks in advance!

Ryan -
Hybridization between Dolly Varden and bull trout can occur. For example hybridization has been documented in the upper Skagit above Ross Reservoir and upper Peace River also in BC. Likely hybrids have been collected in the headwaters of the South Fork Nooksack and the Queets.

To make life more interesting it has been determined that in much of the range of Dolly Varden and bull trout the two could be separated based on morphological and meristic characteristics. In the Skagit and Snohomish fish that appeared to be Dolly Varden based on those physcial characteristic were determined to be bull trout when tested genetically.

Throughout the range of these char the bull trout are freshwater fish (resident, fluvial, and adfluvial life histories) and Dolly Varden include the anadromous form. However where hybridization has been noted the Dolly Varden were the resident forms and the bull trout migratory (adfluvial or fluvial). Here in Western Washington the only anadromous char are bull trout and so far the only Dolly Varden found have been in headwater areas.

Bottom line there much to learn about these interest fish and no one knows much about the "native char" of western Washington.

Tight lines
Smalma

We're presently beginning an acoustic tracking study of char in the Snohomish Basin for the Corps of Engineers. The Corps wants to know the migratory behavior of these fish so they can conduct maintenance dredging in navigation channels without disturbing their habitats or migratory timing.

We've put out hydrophones in several locations in the Snohomish River (little black boxes with a microphone extending in the river; if you see one, please don't disturb it) to detect fish as they're migrating up and downstream. We catch the fish in overwintering areas, plant the tags on them and release them. We're currently in the early stages of the project; we've just begun tagging fish.

Hopefully we'll be able to get a clearer idea of how, where, and when the fish move. Outmigration from freshwater areas to salt is likely occurring now and will continue through the spring. The most interesting thing about these anadromous char is the highly plastic or variable nature of their migratory behavior. They don't appear to migrate in large gluts like salmon, or even steady trickles, like steelhead. They appear to migrate either slowly as a group or move widely spaced over time, following feeding opportunities.

They spawn every year (or every other year) so the fish are divided into two components - mature adults and immature subadults. The adults spawn in headwater streams during the fall, and move back down to marine areas by spring. The movement back downstream appears to be slow, probably feeding on loose salmon eggs of fall spawning salmon. Only a few months, if that, are spent in saltwater before moving back to freshwater in the summer, moving again to headwater streams.

The immature subadults, instead of migrating to headwaters, move instead to lower river environments. In the Snohomish R., they seem to like areas around the head of tide. They spend the winter in these areas, before again migrating back downstream to salt water in the spring. The subadults make this short trip from head of tide to nearshore marine areas a couple of times before migrating to the upper watersheds to spawn. The subadults may also move upstream following spawning salmon, but probably come back to head of tide areas to overwinter.

Rod and reel, give me a steelhead; but for study, the char are much more interesting!

We caught three beautiful 2 - 3 pound Dollies yesterday...

Steelhead Water,

Care to say where? If not, fresh or salt. So far we've been tagging fish in freshwater, but anytime now there are going to be catchable numbers in the salt, so we'll have to shift gears. Thanks!

Sauk, middle drift...shhhh...might be a zipperlip

When I lived on Whidbey Isaland we use to catch all kinds of Dollies and Sea run cutthroat trout from the end of april through the middle of june.
The best places to fish were from Baby isalnd all the way up to deception pass. But our favorites were penn cove, Polnell pt. Long pt, Dugualla bay, and cornett bay.
We usaully just threw spoons from the beach on the incoming and High tide. Crocidiles, Mor-tacs, cleos and dick nites seemed to work the best. Sometimes we would catch 10 to 20 in a couple of hours, others times we spent more time driving from place to place searching for them.
Peace Superfly

Hey, Superfly,

What kind of hooks would you recommend putting on those little spoons? Just kidding.

Dollies are like the rockfish of the river.

They've turned many fishless (steelhead-less) days into successful experiences, like dropping down a jig or two after a lame day of saltchuck salmon fishing can save your day.

More and more I see people harvesting them on the upper Skagit, and the ones being harvested are mainly the really large ones.

Let's not reverse the trend of more and bigger dollies by taking those with the best genes and most productive spawning rates out of the system.

Todd.

Obsessed/Smalma,- I've caught alot of Dollies in the north fork Nooksack in Feb or March, about 2 to 3 lbrs, but I've caught my biggest in the main in June, 6.2 lbs and alot of 4 lbrs. June seem to produce bigger and more fish.
How many yrs do these fish normally live in the rivers?
Are the hybrids sterile?

I know of a river you CAN kill and keep them on... where did you get you info 7x7?

Tyler

G-man
You need to remember that they are a fall spawner so many of the fish caugth in winter , especially those over 16 inches are kelts (spawn-outs). The first fish to come downstream from the spawn often take advantage of the spawning salmon's eggs (mostly chums) and get into condition pretty quick. Those that drop downstream latter (February and March) don't have as much food as those earlier fish so tend to be skinny.

Those June fish had a chance to recover from the spawning. The other thing is those June fish had a chance to recover from the winter's fishing pressure and those are easier to catch. While the common wisdom is "Dollies" are easy to catch may experience has proven to be exactly the opposite. With fishing pressure they become much harder to catch, especially the larger fish.

In the Skagit the anadromous fish are usually 2 year smolts, sometimes 3 year fish. Most fish spawn the first time at age 4 or 5. A 6 pound fish might be as old as 6 to 10 years old. Some fish may live as long as 15 or more years.

Tight lines
Smalma

I have heard rumors of very large Dolly Varden in the upper Elwha by a few people I know who have spent a lot of time in the back country. Could this be a case of 'large fish habitat' Smalma?

This is interesting.The dollys that I caught this year were all on spoons and all from the same run exept one and I fished this section equally with both spoons and bait.They were in a run down below a corner slot that had a long tail out.That tail out was full of small steelhead in the 2 to 4lb range.They started for the most part deep in the tail out and move deeper into the pool every day.After the next freshet I could not buy a fish in that section but found dollys up above where I had already put in 10 trips with no dollys.I believe that they were the same fish that had move up through the canyon on there way back up to the upper reaches.Like I said I fish both the canyon under the steel bridge and the canyon below the oxbow hard during the summer and have never caught a dolly in those canyons.

I believe these fish come down after spawning riding the big gully washer at the end of jan to feed on spawners etc.There is definately going to be more feed lower than upper.I took for granted that those steelys were riding the tailout governed by stream flow but now I wonder if they were spawning fish.Dinky for steelys?After they were done the dollys moved up right bellow the native spawning grounds up above.Smart fish!I caught three nice steelys above where these dollys moved to!

Shltdh2o-
The "Dollies" and chinook use difference spawning habitats (chinook mainstems and Dollies headwater areas) those large fish were likely lake run or adfluvial fish. In most the species range the largest fish rear in lakes (more food for a longer period), the next anadromous, then fluvial and finally the resident life history.

Those lake feeding fish were in the river either migrating upstream to spawn or returning post spawn - not unlike anadromous fish we here in the western side of the mountains are familar with.

Tight lines
Smalma

Thanks Smalma, I actually had that much figured out already. I was talking about dollies (are you colloquializing them because you prefer to call them something else?) in the 10+ pound class.

I have caught one adfluvial Dolly weighing over ten pounds in the Upper *. I have seen a picture of a much larger fish. Could you comment on the uppermost size threshold for these fish?

Oh, and I don't mind at all if you misspell my handle, just try to avoid "shthdh2o"....

obsessed/G-man
I've found that the dollies/bull trout follow the smolts down the river and into the salt. In the spring if you find smolts the dollies are not far off. Many times I've found dollies/bull trout in the lower section of the Snohomish R. chasing smolts on the surface. It's like a shark feeding frenzy. I have seen fish that I know would go over 10#s easily. If you want to tag Dollies check that part of the Snoh.R. down from Snohomish. You might also check out Mission Beach on the Tulalip Res. in mid April.

Stlhdh2o-
Sorry about the spelling mistake on your name; obviously spelling isn't my strong suit.

Clearly the largest Dolly Varden/bull trout are the adfluvial fish. While genetically most of our populations are bull trout they will always be a "Dolly" when I have a rod in my hand.

The World record was a fish from Lake Pend Oreille, Idaho weighing an amazing 32 pounds and it was 40.5 inches long. The Washington state record is 22.5#s and was 35 inches long and it came from the Tieton River (trib to Rimrock Lake, Yakima system). I believe the Oregon record is in the low 20s as well, it was from Billy Chinook Resevoir. You notice that all these fish were much heavier than steelhead of similar length. In local waters I have see the same thing with most of the large fish that have recovered from spawning.

It would not surprise me to hear of fish go into the teens moving out of the reservoirs on the Elwha.

Tight lines
Smalma

I heard the state biologist on the Skagit tagged a 20lbr 3 yrs ago. If the state record is 22.5 then I guess it's very possiable to beat that out of the Skagit?

My most productive lure for big Dollies in June/July is a #5 sil/red Vibrax. They slam em!
I bet they'd love a #6 also!