I was hoping to poll the resident fish biologists on this board to explain something I observed on Saturday...

My fishing partner bonked a couple of hatchery kelts on Saturday...as he was cleaning them I noticed one or two stray eggs left in the body cavity, I also noticed distinctly new and tiny sets of egg skeins beginning to grow already in their bellies. Is this normal?

Yes.

DUH !!!
Peace Superfly

I bet those spawned out fish will taste real good too !!!!!!!
Peace Superfly

Those tiny scanes of eggs are for next year. The fish can either stay in the river for another year or head out to the salt and chill till next december. From what I understand these fish do not grow at all over this next year and were actually the biggest they will ever be before they spawned this winter.

He said they get ~7% return spawning on hatchery fish.

Im not a bio, but the fish checker at wilsons recently gave me the story when I asked the same question.

Thanks to those of you that you responded that actually offered information.

I hope somebody will offer some information regarding the biology behind the observation...

Why did he kill them?????

MMMMMMMM...Kelt! A hatch fish makes it past the gauntlet and survives spawning and your buddy klunks it...if he's that hungry I can send some catfood UPS, cause it'll probably taste better than those boots he's got on the BBQ right now.

So both guys I was with this weekend were making fun of ME for saying that they were spawners, snakes, no good, cat food etc...so you can settle with the eye rolling. My girlfriend used to do that...

I used to have the attitude that all hatchery fish must be bonked regardless of where they were in the spawning process. For the past five years I have reconsidered my position and decided that it would be in my best interest as a fisherman to let them go.

I'd never eat one again, but my first year steelhead fishing I tried one...
how was I supposed to know, that sucker was bright! Too bad you couldn't say the same thing about the meat...

I obviously couldn't have kept many or I wouldn't be asking questions about their physiology...

You'd think people who obviously fancy themselves a bunch of comedians would actually be funny, I suppose that would asking a little much around here.

Gooose, thats great, getting your point across without typing a word!
Ng

You would think that someone who fancies himself some information regarding the downriver steelhead would ask more than a yes or no question.

Most animals know not to wee-wee (that one's for you, hilton ) in their own food.

If you and gooose are the only sources of info. (food in your analogy) on this board then consider yourself wee wee'd on...otherwise, if you have nothing to add or positive to say please confine your imbecilic remarks and posts to yourselves...

A class act on display...

Thanks for posting a picture of yourself, I knew I'd seen you somewhere before...

I know you are but what am I?

Geeez, is this for real? I must admit though that at one point I had tears rolling down my cheeks from laughing
I gotta ask DJ-how did you put that on there?

Laughing until I pee,

Crayfin

Step 1: Find and download image .
Step 2: Upload picture .
Step 3: When finished uploading the page will show you your image. Right click on it and save the link location.
Step 4: Create post and use the Image button below your post window and paste (Ctrl+V for us Windows folks, Mac folks probably use an Open Apple/Closed Apple key sequence ) the URL into the window that pops up.

That's about the gist of it. If you need practice just start a thread of naked Jennifer Connely pictures and see if it works.

Hey I don't care how old or spawned out they were.. Thanks for getting hacthery fish out of the system thats important to the survival of wild fish...

If a Hatch can survice 2-4 years in the Salt, survive spawning, and be on the way back out killing it will have no effect on the Wild population. The eggs are already in the gravel, and the chance of this fish returning again is little to zero, and if it does than it deserves to spawn again.

I agree with killing hatcheries prior to spawning but killing kelts is never cool.

sthdh20,

How'd you ever manage that? Whoopin' boy two months in a row. That has to be a record.

C'mon Dave, take it easy on the little guy. I know it's very tempting, but please restrain yourself.

(Word to the wise, don't get into a smack talking debate with DJ. He gets plenty of practice dissing those old folks at social security.)

Thanks for the friendly advice but on my scorecard he is still down...

shw, this is a public forum. Yours is NOT the only score card that counts, unless you want to continue to claim victory by deleting your threads.

We all develop a feel for who's winning when there's a tussle goin' down, and I for one wouldn't bet on you right now. Personally I thought you took a little too much heat for your original post, but you're diggin' a hole again. It's time to cut your losses.

Hey skywalker -

Thanks for the post...Maybe you can at least understand why I won't let them do this to me or anyone else if I can...

If gooooose posts a thread where I have nothing to add I don't post on it. If DJ posts something that I have no interest in or nothing to add I don't post on it. I don't think it is asking alot to request that they do the same for me. They don't have to honor the request, that's part of the BB world. But if you deliver flames you should expect them returned to you, also part of the BB world.

I have made this request several times, at first with all the respect due someone whom I know nothing about. Now that I see what these are all about I feel that respect is no longer due. Search this BB for their posts and see what they are contributing, at least publicly. If you call flaming people that disagree with them contributing then they are certainly leading the pack.

I suppose I could just ignore them, I choose however choose to let them continue to show themselves as the class acts that they are, since they can't goad me with words (hmmm....I wonder why?) they use pictograms, the whole hee-haw crowd goes nuts and thinks it is the funniest stuff since the Red-green show. Well, I would prefer that the crowd thinking that sort of nonsense is funny ostracize me. I don't want to be associated with that kind of mentality.

By their own words.."if you don't like it, don't read it". An extension of the same logic would be..."if you don't like the poster, don't post". And they call me the hypocrite...

One last thing and this one really gnaws at me...

These guys are using 'freedom of speech' to defend what they are doing. Remember, these are the same group of people who absolutely torched me for expressing my own opinion (and my right to free speech) about ***** and Vision hooks. I guess "freedom of speech" isn't a GGR, is it? Unless you are one of the four horsemen...even then, they are down to pictograms...

Read this post from top to bottom, I took their jibes and returned them. With decency, and their own toilet humor turned around on them.

There are enough decent people in this community that understand where I am coming from. That I have found what I am looking for every time I have looked through this forum is testament to that. Believe it or not I have friends here, that's why I even bother continuing to stick my nose out there, often times saying the unpopular thing because no one else will.

I'm done for good on this subject until they start flaming my threads again...

Take any pictures of the kelts?
Better off smoking a squawfish

'Goad-proof'. Now that would sell here! As for kelts, geez, Scottish nerds wear those dang things for criise sakes.

shw, in the case of the thread that started you down the road to ostracism, I think you asked for it. I think you did it on purpose because you want people to know that you speak your mind. I respect that to some degree, but you know what? You walk down a dark alley downtown Seattle waving $100 bills, you're gonna get rolled, my friend. You could NOT POSSIBLY have been surprised at the response you got. You called out friends of a sponsor, and really didn't do a very good job of being diplomatic about it, if you ask me.

Me, I don't go around testing humanity. I think about the sort of responses I'll get from people when I open my mouth, and if I don't want to hear it, I won't go there. That's not to say I won't engage in a debate, but I just don't always stick my face in front of a bus when I don't have to.

On this last one, yeah, you got hit pretty hard for asking a question, and I thought it was uncalled for. Still, you have developed a reputation, and it's hanging with you. I'm not surprised about that either. This isn't a church or grade school. My last $.02 as well........

and do we hear a *click*

Hmmm, if the post that began this thread is still relevant, here's what I've heard. Yes, it's normal. A female steelhead begins developing its next skeins of eggs even before the present skeins have been spawned.

I didn't do a check on this, so am relying on old fart's memory, but I think I've read that a newborn female human possesses all the eggs she will ever develop and release in periods for half a lifetime, extending to menopause. In that context, a kelt with next year's skeins beginning to develop shouldn't seem so strange.

As for bonkin' the kelts, well it's hard to say any biological harm was done. The likely outcome is that they would have become seal fodder in the estuary. As spawners in the natural environment, if they were Chambers Creek fish, they aren't likely to be very effective. If it was the Wynoochee or Skookumchuck, or other systems where native brood stock are used, then the last statement most likely doesn't apply.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo a question? On seals and sea lions? Do you think with the proliferation of these predators especially within Puget Sound there may be a significant decline in repeat wild spawners from historic levels? Its been a serious topic of discussion amongst several of us scientific types and nonscientific types.

Thanks DJ

Skywalker--Not that it matters, but I think your a pretty stand up guy. I for one admire the fact that you looked at the whole picture and responded with a well thought out response--atta kid for you!

H20--You keep stepping in front the punch here fella, we all understand that you will stand up for something that you believe in and that's great but..............Geez man, stop the insanity! I heard some great words the other day and I think I will pass them on "Your worst enemy is yourself left over from yesterday"--You are being graded here on your last performance.

Crayfin

A few years back I got a down river fish in may on the Sol Duc.I thought it was a summer fish and kept it.It did not have any mature eggs in its cavity but it did have small new sacks in it.

gooose,smalma,
I talked to an ecologist on the west end a couple of weeks ago that pointed at some studys done that showed that our introduction of hatchery fish had a positive effect on the population of predetors?I will email him as he said he would be happy to point me in the deirection of the studys.

Last year a guy wanted me to take a picture of him and his buddies with their limits, 3 people 5 spawners and 1 good fish. I didn't have the heart to tell them what they had, they were so proud. They had never limited out, let alone all three of them in one day. The other fishermen behind me were laughing. Be gentle on H20, he isn't the only one out there.

Fishhead5

StlhdH20,

Hang in there buddy...at least you're asking real questions and getting a few answers!!

Pre-spawn hatchery fish, bonk 'em all.

Post-spawn...chances of returning again are so low, and they're nasty to eat, and they're embarrassing to carry around, and they take up space on my punchcard that I'd rather fill with a less embarrassing and better tasting dinner. Back they go.

Fish on...

Todd.

Gooose,

Regarding your question about seals and sea lions. I think it's a "balance of nature" issue. When the predator population is high (seals) and the prey population is low (steelhead), it does not bode well for the prey. Conversely, in the absence of predators (Yellowstone wolves), sometimes the prey population (Yellowstone elk) gets way out of hand. The principles of ecology are as absolute as the laws of physics, and in perturbed systems - like what we've made out of much of the planet - ecological balance is sometimes restored by site specific environmental disasters.

Since we have severely compromised the salmon and steelhead capacity and productivity of NW river systems, we should carefully consider the consequences of predator populations, like seals, reaching early 20th century levels. If their traditional forage isn't available, well, they gotta' eat something.

I want to have seals and sea lions around, but I don't want to be overrun with them, any more than I would with rats or cockroaches. If these animals are pushing the limits of the resources that support them, then maybe seal seasons would make sense in the way that deer and elk seasons do; it helps keep the population within the limits of its available range while limiting damage to other valuable resources.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

SG, bring your gun out to the mouth of the Skok!!! Hundreds of seals, no natural preditors. The seals have gone unchecked for years. It sure would be nice if they opened season!

Fishhead5

Salmo,

Here's one I read about in some journal a couple of years ago. Unfortunately I don't have a clue which one it was in.

Overfishing of salmon in Alaska is actually causing the destruction of kelp beds, which are home, spawning and rearing habitat, to multitudes of fish and marine life.

Here's how it worked...

With diminishing salmon, the killer whales were consuming sea otters at a greatly elevated rate. Less sea otters meant many more sea urchins, one of their major foods. Sea urchins eat kelp.

A classic example of how overfishing a river fifty miles from the ocean can affect the ling cod population off shore, or many other fish and sea life.

Fish on...

Todd.

Thanks, Crayfin.

I haven't had much to contribute re: fishing lately, so I thought maybe I'd try and bank some karma.

I think people should pay for their mistakes, but I don't think every case mandates a life sentence or capital punishment. In stlhdh20's case, he's trying to move on and I think we all should as well.

Peace, all.