On another thread Smalma indicated that the small number of resident trout I have observed while fishing Western Washington rivers may be due to the predominant use of bait as a lure (I hope I am paraphrasing somewhat accurately).

I had always been under the impression that the small numbers were due to being outcompeted for food by anadromous species. I have been passing this idea on to fishermen with less experience than myself. Is this a completely baseless idea?

Have there been any studies showing a systematic decline in resident trout populations in Western Washington rivers? If so, has a correlation with bait usage ever been documented? What about the idea of competition with anadromous fish not so much for spawning area but for food? I guess now that I think about it you could look at the anadromous fry as a food source...

Sorry if I am going over ground that has already been covered...

Within nearly all drainages occupied by Onchorhyncus mykiss and O. clarki there has always been a portion of the populations of these two species that we would call "resident."
These non-anadramous types are today typically found in waters seperated from their anadramous brethern by physical obstacles but not in all instances. They may also be seperated by choice of or time of use of anadramous spawning and rearing areas. The most likely cause of their decline is catch and eat fisheries regardless of method. I remember the public meetings when the state first proposed flyfishing only waters and reduced limits on trout in streams....Guys came out of the woodworks saying in the old days they would catch and take home trout by the bucket full, had been doing it for generations, and were pissed that they couldn't continue to do it. As for correlations giving an answer blaming one specific possible cause....well have you ever heard about the correlation between dog bites and sunspots?

Wanted to pop this back to the top so maybe Todd or Smalma would respond if they are not blue in the face by now...

I don't know one way or the other, but I find it interesting that many BC and Alaska rivers/streams have trophy size resident trout (raibow) fishing that dreams are made of. From what I've heard, they can be found downstream of the spawning salmon feeding on the plentiful salmon eggs drifting by. I can only guess that they would also dine on the fry/smolt/parr as well.

On a side note, i've heard one technique for these trophy rainbows on a C&R river is to use egg pattern flies, with only a trailer hook several inches below the actual 'fly'. This was supposed to allow the small hook to catch the trout on the outside of the mouth and reduced the mortality ratio. Anyway, I thought that was interesting...

I find resident trout where resident americans are not...funny.

Goose is certainly correct in that over fishing was the most common cause of decline of the resident part of the steelhead/rainbow population; for most of our rivers that occurred decades ago. My point in the other thread was that hooking mortality potentially plays a major role in the inability of the resident population to recover; even in systems that have larger (say 14 inches) minimum size limits. If we wish to recover these populations then the selective taking of these fish (whether from direct harvest or hooking mortaltiy) must be greatly reduced. Where it has been we see more resident trout.

Where resident trout are found it is not uncommon to see them spawning with their anadromous brethren. This is true with steelhead/rainbow, sea-run and resident cutthroat, and migratory and resident Dolly Varden/bull trout. It appears that resident fish (rainbows) produce some anadromous smolts and anadromous fish (steelhead) produce some resident trout.

It is also true that given the high flushing rates and poor water chemistry of many of our coastal streams the would not be expected to be as rich as interior streams. However there are seasonal bonanzas of feed in anadromous systems due to salmon; eggs in the fall and fry in the spring. The nutrients from the carcasses also increase the over all productivity of the systems. This benefit is see mostly in those systems with sockeye, pink and/or chum salmon. In years with high salmon escapements there is noted increases in growth rates in resident salmonids as well as the freshwater phases of the anadromous salmonids.

As fishing pressure increases more restrictive regulations (higher size limits, lower bag limits and gear restrictions) are needed if we wish to retain or recover the historical diversity of our salmonid populations. This is especially true of those more fragile populations or those under stress from habitat degradation.

Tight lines
Smalma

As I'm just a little older than most of you. I used to catch resident trout out of the rivers around here. They were a very pretty fish. I used to catch them out of Troublesome Creek and out of the N/Fork of the Skykomish. But that was a long time ago. And no they weren't steelhead. Different markings.
That was such a long time ago. It was when you could keep 16 fish. That's when I was into catch and keep.
Back then we thought that this type of fishing would last forever,but as we all know it didn't.
Now that I'm older and know better I don't keep anything anymore.

That Smalma has been on fire lately, hasn't he?

Thanks Smalma...all true....but hopefully the use of further restrictions on fishing gear, etc. will be based upon "good" science and applied where it will actually produce results. To often I have seen a stampede to apply fishing regulations based upon a one solution fits all approach that has little relation to science but a definite relationship with religious zealotry.

Interesting that some resident adults can spawn anadromous offspring and vice versa.

Doesn't this lend credence to the idea that the steelhead is not a true salmonid?? If it weren't would that mean anything? Is a 'resident trout' different from a 'rainbow trout'? If so how?

Stlhdh2o -
Salmoid is a term generally used to refer to fish that are salmon or trout like. Salmonid includes the various salmon, trout, char, whitefish and grayling.

Rainbows are one of several resident trout.

Old Man -
I can relate to the "old time" fishing and agree 100% on those pretty resident bows. If you wish for a stroll down memory-lane you might wish to try the upper North Fork Skyomish above Deer Falls (about 1/4 mile above the mouth of Goblin Creek to Quartz Creek). You'll find decent numbers of small resident bows (a 12 incher would be a lunker). There are number of other similar sized streams within a hour or two of your home that has some surprising trout fishing. Try small dry flies (elk hair caddis etc) or nymphs after the summer run-off; which will likely to be well into July with this year's snow pack.

Tight lines
Smalma

Okay my lack of biology knowledge is showing...I guess what I am trying to ask is: Are what is being observed in Western Washington rivers resident steelhead or resident trout? There would seem to be a pretty big difference. If there are resident steelhead why not resident coho?

What is the current scientific consensus regarding the evolution of the steelhead? Did they evolve from a resident trout species? Kind of a chicken or the egg question I know...How do salmon and steelhead differ in their evolutionary history? How closely related are they?

Are there any Western Washington rivers that boast a healthy resident trout population?

I recently read an article in a fishing magazine in a doctors office, I do not remember the name of the magazine. Tha article stated that opposed to the common belief (scientific/public) that steelhead evolved from rainbow trout that they are actually in no way related. They commpared this to the long beleif of Dolly Varden and Bull trout being the same fish, which was recently discovered that they are not. It said that Bull trout are a mimic (sp) of Dolly Varden that evolved withen the last 8,000 years, and a 4,000 years before that you would not have recognised the fish. Anyway, back to the point. It said that rainbow and steelhead do not share the same parent spiecies, but that the steelhead made its presence only around 19,000 tears ago and they have not yet determind what it evolved from. But they were possitive it was not the Rainbow. Something about sea levels and comming out of an ice age and location and a bunch of stuff about DNA. I have no idea how correct the Stealhead info is, but the Dolly/Bull info is pretty much scientific common knowledge now, even though the full story has not yet spread to all anglers. I have read several articles on that subject and when the info was just starting to surface my highschool marine biology class went over it.

Stlhdh2o -
My understand is that the pacific trout (cutthroat and rainbows) and salmon evolute from a common ancestor(s). The early "trout" was a freshwater fish that gave rise to first the trout and later developed into the various salmon species. So on the evolution ladder rainbow and cutthroat are more primitive than salmon with coho next, sockeye, chinook, chum and finally pinks. Not sure where the asian cherry salmon fits. Notice the each "newer" species spends less of its life history in freshwater. There is extensive articles about this and suggest if you want more information check some of the work by Dr. Benke (spelling?).

Are there Western Washington streams with healthy resident trout? Cutthroat or rainbow? Above or below anadromous barriers? The forks of the Snoqualmie above the falls has both rainbow and cuthroat, upper South Fork Skykomish has both, South Fork Tolt (anadromous) has rainbows (closed to fishing), Upper North Fork Tolt rainbows (CnR). Many of the larger tribs on the Skagit/Sauk as well as O.P. streams (above and below barriers), especially within the park have rainbows. Within a little poking around some surprising good trout fishing can be found, just have to put aside the big rods. By the way if do start poking around on some of the anadromous portions of these streams don't be surprised if you met a summer-run or two.

Assistant baiter -
Dolly Varden and bull trout, as well as artic char are closely related species that can still hybridize with each other. The current thinking is that they (like the trout and salmon) developed from a common ancestor. In the last age(s) the thinking that were at least three general refugia from the ice cover; one in the Bering/Artic area, one in the Queen Charlette Island area, and one in the Western Montana. The char were isolate in these refugai and diverged from each other over the 10,000s of years with the Artic char developing in the North, the Dolly Varden in the middle and the bull trout in the interior. After the ice receded the fish spread out with the bull trout and Dolly Varden coming into contact in Western Washington and British Columbia. The Dolly Varden and artic char coming into contact with ech other in Alaska (Bristol Bay area?). The above is very much simplied but should give you some background info.

Tight lines
Smalma

I guess one could say that the steelhead is the mother of all salmon!!

Excellent!!

Smalma. I used to fish the N/Fork before they closed the upper section down. It used to be closed from 1000 ft below Bear Creek Fall to 1000 ft above it. But not any more. Now its closed up to Deer Falls,which I can't seem to find on any map. That area around Garland Hot springs was very good fishing.

I also fish all thru the head waters of the S/Fork. Lots of streams up there. Beckler,Rapid,Foss,Miller,Tye, And many smaller streams.

When you get back in the woods you usually have those small streams mostly to yourself. I've found some good fishing there and some no good fishing there.

As you say I try to hit alot of places.

Wow, this one's been going well...sorry I've missed it and hope I don't screw it up!

Here's an additional piece of information to add to the stack...I hope I remember it correctly.

It seems that I've read that the Kamchatka steelhead/rainbow population is divided into three parts; river, estuarine, and anadromous. The "river" portion would be "resident" rainbows, the "estuarine" would be similar to residents, only would live in the tidewaters, and "anadromous", of course, use all three.

Here's the interesting part...all three are genetically indistinguishable. As ocean conditions change and reduce the anadromous runs, the estuarine and resident populations contribute to bringing the anadromous numbers up. What I mean to say is that residents spawn and produce anadromous fish.

It doesn't only happen that way, but all ways. If any of the three types falls out of balance with the other two, then the other two contribute to the slacker type.

Now..if I've got that right, then that makes our prior "trout" seasons, with horrendous limits and high mortality on released fish, seem pretty bad. As resident populations are depleted by harvest, some of the productivity of our steelhead is used to prop them up. The residents keep going down, and steelhead keep using some of their productivity to help. Then, when marine conditions are such that our steelhead runs are on the decline, there's no resident population to draw on to help keep the anadromous run going.

This scenario, of course, is only possible IF I remember the Kamchatka info correctly, and if it applies to our fish if I do remember correctly.

Smalma?

Fish on...

Todd.

BTW, on an interesting side note, I caught a fish today on the Sauk that was a perfect chrome wild steelhead hen, except for the fact that it was about sixteen inches long. It was clearly a steelhead...I'm wondering if it was a one salt "jack" (early returner) or a fish that stayed a bit longer than it should have (late leaver). Also, I've heard of a few other of these being caught this year...any thoughts?

Old Man -
Glad to hear you been getting out and about in the mountains. Many of us get so focused on the steelhead portion of the steelhead/rainbow populations that we miss the beauty and diversity of steelheads' "little brothers", both the fish and their habitats.

Deer Falls on the North Fork Skykomish is about 4 miles upstream of Garland; about 1/4 mile upstream of the mouth of Golblin.

Todd -
As stated earlier in this tread it appears that the resident rainbows and steelhead have a similar relationship here on this side of the Pacific. This is not unique to "mykiss"; we see exactly the same things with our cutthroat and Dolly Varden/bull trout. We humans tend to want to put things in nice neat boxes; our fish seem to resist this at every opportunity. That is some of what makes them so interesting.

The fish on the Sauk may well have been a resident rainbow. I catch several every year in the Sauk/Skagit. Typically the residents reach maturity at about 14 inches (age 4), so your 16 inch would be spawning for its second time this spring, likely in May. Remember based on the above the fish is the same whether we call it a steelhead or resident. Based on my experience the probability is a fish that size (especially the females) have not been to sea. Without scales samples it would be difficult to tell with certainity. Other possibilities (all rare) include: 1) A "Jill or Jenny"; a sexual mature female that returned a year early; or 2) perhaps smolted at an older age (3 or 4 years, it is even possible that it may have spawned prior to smolting and returned after only 1 summer at sea; or 3) A "half pounder"; a fish that returned after the first summer of rearing to over-winter in freshwater as a sexually immature fish. While all these other options are rare they do happen; again part of the diversity of the species.

The chrome color of the fish may indicate that it was to the ocean. But could just as well be that it is smolting but most likley is that due to the recent colored or turbid conditions of the Sauk it had turned silver. Remember that fish can adjust their colors at more or less their will. During the summer run period the trout often are silver or pale in color and with the return of clear water in late summer or fall their coloration returns to what we would consider to be normal.

Tight lines
Smalma

Anyone ever seen a Beardslee trout caught at Lake Crescent? I have...I wonder where they fit in the evolutionary ladder? They look an awful lot like a steelhead to me. According to what I remember from Washington State history class (Ha!) there was an event there within relatively recent geologic history that cut off a stream. Pure speculation on my part but is there a direct relationship?